C.Biscuit97 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, Figster said: What are the odds of a 6th round QB becoming the best signal caller the league has ever seen. Or a guy like Kurt Warner is bagging groceries one minute yet goes on to win a championship. I could care less about the odds... with all due respect Biscuit That has to be less than 1% but I’m sure they are out there (and I’d love to see them). I think the odds of me dating Yanet Garcia (google her) is probably 60-40 but the likelihood of me meeting her is under 10%. But I guess there’s a chance and now I feel better about Allen’s chances. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I gave up on EJ after the San Diego game in his second season. He showed no improvement from year 1 to year 2, was missing wide open receivers and seemed to have regressed. I defended him pretty thoroughly as a rookie, but after 4 games as a sophomore I felt his benching was completely justified. He looked completely lost. I bought into the idea he was a raw player with lots of upside and I overlooked all of his deficiencies as a passer. I won't do that again this year. Go back and look at EJ at FSU, watch him deciding “how” to throw the football. That was never going to change. Allen is a natural thrower, if he can handle the mental part of the game and function presnap he will be a good one. “How” to throw a football, anyone that has played QB or thrown enough footballs knows that midthrow your brain shouldn’t be trying to communicate with your arm on how you need to release this thing. EJ and Bortles both do it at times, it’s some weird mental block. Relate it to another sport? Sorta similar to what Knoblauch went through in baseball? Different because for years Chuck was fine but once he started thinking instead of throwing the results were horrific. In short, don’t dismiss Allen because of EJ’s fatal flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: From an analytics perspective, do you think that using the 2nd overall pick in the draft on a player that has a 61.9% chance of being a bust make sense to you? For like the 5th time, I don't put any stock in the guys with a score between 0 and 800 because there are too many hits and misses. That isn't the case with guys who score negatively. They've all been terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: From an analytics perspective, do you think that using the 2nd overall pick in the draft on a player that has a 61.9% chance of being a bust make sense to you? Greg Robinson Luke Jieckel RG3 Jason Smith Robert Gallery charles Rodgers Ryan Leaf Leonard Davis Kevin Hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Commonsense said: Go back and look at EJ at FSU, watch him deciding “how” to throw the football. That was never going to change. Allen is a natural thrower, if he can handle the mental part of the game and function presnap he will be a good one. “How” to throw a football, anyone that has played QB or thrown enough footballs knows that midthrow your brain shouldn’t be trying to communicate with your arm on how you need to release this thing. EJ and Bortles both do it at times, it’s some weird mental block. Relate it to another sport? Sorta similar to what Knoblauch went through in baseball? Different because for years Chuck was fine but once he started thinking instead of throwing the results were horrific. In short, don’t dismiss Allen because of EJ’s fatal flaw. It isn't just about EJ. Inaccurate college QBs have no real history of becoming accurate NFL QBs. There are dozens of examples of guys with sub 59% completion percentages who failed in the NFL, and only a couple examples of them succeeding (and hardly any come from the past 25 years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, jrober38 said: For like the 5th time, I don't put any stock in the guys with a score between 0 and 800 because there are too many hits and misses. That isn't the case with guys who score negatively. They've all been terrible. You didn't answer my question. Based on QBASE's assessment that Carson Wentz had a 61.9% of being a bust. From an analytics perspective, was it a wise move by the Eagles to trade up for Wentz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Inaccurate college QBs have no real history of becoming accurate NFL QBs. People who use completion percentage in college -- in a vacuum, without further analysis -- as evidence of accuracy or inaccuracy aren't really doing a thorough job of analysis. But I'm sure you knew that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: You didn't answer my question. Based on QBASE's assessment that Carson Wentz had a 61.9% of being a bust. From an analytics perspective, was it a wise move by the Eagles to trade up for Wentz? Yes. It was obviously a wise decision. QBASE's reliability when looking at players with scores of 0-800 is not enough to solely base a decision on. There have been way too many hits and misses to say you can solely make a draft decision based off QBASE. I get it. You don't want to admit that Allen likely won't work out, but that's the reality we face. Trying to discredit QBASE, even though it's projection for players with a negative score has been almost flawless isn't the right approach. No one is saying QBASE as an overall study is perfect. However, based off who they've given negative scores to and the fact that none of them have become franchise QBs makes that segment of their study very valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I gave up on EJ after the San Diego game in his second season. He showed no improvement from year 1 to year 2, was missing wide open receivers and seemed to have regressed. I defended him pretty thoroughly as a rookie, but after 4 games as a sophomore I felt his benching was completely justified. He looked completely lost. I bought into the idea he was a raw player with lots of upside and I overlooked all of his deficiencies as a passer. I won't do that again this year. Similar in that I defended him as a rookie. Sadly his best games for the Bills all came in his first 5 or 6 starts. Equally I will defend Josh Allen as a rookie when inevitably people try and write him off after less than a full season of NFL action. But my long term prognostics for him are still not great. Edited July 25, 2018 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Yes. It was obviously a wise decision. QBASE's reliability when looking at players with scores of 0-800 is not enough to solely base a decision on. There have been way too many hits and misses to say you can solely make a draft decision based off QBASE. I get it. You don't want to admit that Allen likely won't work out, but that's the reality we face. Trying to discredit QBASE, even though it's projection for players with a negative score has been almost flawless isn't the right approach. No one is saying QBASE as an overall study is perfect. However, based off who they've given negative scores to and the fact that none of them have become franchise QBs makes that segment of their study very valuable. They were wrong on Wentz and perhaps they are wrong on Allen. Maybe they will have to tweak their model when Allen becomes a superstar. QBASE is fallible. Edited July 25, 2018 by Sky Diver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Sky Diver said: They were wrong on Wentz and perhaps they are wrong on Allen. Maybe they will have to tweak their mottle when Allen becomes a superstar. Maybe. But history and 30 years of data suggests their methodology for players with a negative score is just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelingOnYouboty Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) I was probably the biggest Josh Allen hater during the process but I'm a sucker and I've bought in. You dance with the one who brought ya. I want him to succeed not just because he's our guy now but man I want the media who've gone overboard with their analysis to really eat it. Some of the analysis is bordering on mean lol Plus like most NFL execs I'm a size queen. Just look at Josh Allen. That's 6'5 235 pounds of California beef. The boy can fill out a uniform and he has the best arm in the NFL. Cool number. I'm all in man. Hope he's good. Edited July 25, 2018 by FeelingOnYouboty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: It isn't just about EJ. Inaccurate college QBs have no real history of becoming accurate NFL QBs. There are dozens of examples of guys with sub 59% completion percentages who failed in the NFL, and only a couple examples of them succeeding (and hardly any come from the past 25 years). I understand why some fans cling to the completion percentage and keep their expectations low. I see something different when watching Allen, maybe for me it’s because he does the things that EJ couldn’t and it’s a personal victory of sorts. I hope that’s not true but it may prove so. The thing I have a hard time with is the group of fans that supported EJ and his obvious flaw but are unable to get behind Allen. EJ had a 67% career completion percentage while at FSU. The guy shotputs passes, aims others like he is playing darts, flicks some, it’s painful to watch. I’d venture a guess he had more easy completions than Allen did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, jrober38 said: Maybe. But history and 30 years of data suggests their methodology for players with a negative score is just fine. They haven’t changed their model in 30 years? I find that hard to believe. You obviously put more faith in QBASE than I do. Fortunately for the Eagles they took QBASE with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I think the odds of me dating Yanet Garcia (google her) is probably 60-40 but the likelihood of me meeting her is under 10%. But I guess there’s a chance and now I feel better about Allen’s chances. She's lovely. Folks can think and say what they want. I personally believe Allen has a decent chance to be very good, but I am not a pure analytics kinda guy. I find it tiresome when some posters appear most interested in registering their skepticism/dislike of the pick. If you're a Bills' fan, why not try to evince at least the hope that the fella is the player OBD thinks he is? This ought to be a fun time where hope abounds, not the reiteration of doubts and anger that a preferred qb wasn't picked. There will be plenty of time for recrimination if things don't work out, but constant negativity, especially at this stage, just drains the joy out of anticipating a new season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: They were wrong on Wentz and perhaps they are wrong on Allen. Maybe they will have to tweak their model when Allen becomes a superstar. QBASE is fallible. Obviously you have concluded that Allen will be a superstar so you are going to reject anything that may say otherwise. I wonder what your opinion of Allen would be if the Jets drafted him instead.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Bangarang said: Obviously you have concluded that Allen will be a superstar so you are going to reject anything that may say otherwise. I wonder what your opinion of Allen would be if the Jets drafted him instead.. Or if he said anything, anything negative at all towards Alabama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Bangarang said: Obviously you have concluded that Allen will be a superstar so you are going to reject anything that may say otherwise. I wonder what your opinion of Allen would be if the Jets drafted him instead.. FWIW prior to the draft I said my biggest fear was the Pats trading up and getting Allen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Commonsense said: I understand why some fans cling to the completion percentage and keep their expectations low. I see something different when watching Allen, maybe for me it’s because he does the things that EJ couldn’t and it’s a personal victory of sorts. I hope that’s not true but it may prove so. The thing I have a hard time with is the group of fans that supported EJ and his obvious flaw but are unable to get behind Allen. EJ had a 67% career completion percentage while at FSU. The guy shotputs passes, aims others like he is playing darts, flicks some, it’s painful to watch. I’d venture a guess he had more easy completions than Allen did. I don't see why you'd have a hard time with it. Any logical person should see pretty easily that the excuses they made about EJ's inability to properly play the QB position were wrong, and that making the same excuses for a new player with a similar set of problems doesn't make any sense. All I know is that inaccurate college QBs don't become successful NFL QBs. Matt Stafford is the only guy in 25 years with a career completion percentage below 58% who went onto become a good pro. On the flip side, there are numerous examples of guys who wound up being complete busts because they never improved their accuracy. Completion percentage isn't the only thing you need to look at. I read several highly detailed analytical studies, and they all thing Allen is going to be a huge bust. Hopefully for our sake they're all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Or if he said anything, anything negative at all towards Alabama. Well he didn't go there, despite Alabama's incredibly generous scholarship program. I think that speaks volumes! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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