Scorp83 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) On 7/24/2018 at 1:26 PM, Bangarang said: If he was drafted by literally any other team, these criticisms would have merit. So true! It's crazy! Its like the fanbase COMPLETELY forgot he was the one voted in the poll on WGR & on Twitter as THE QB BUFFALO DOES NOT WANT! Yet people want to be delusional like it was never the case. The reports about Josh Allen not being good or not becoming a great QB is coming from everyone under the sun, except probably 5 people in the professional media. I get it... we haven't have a QB here in decades! It's hard to hear the Bill's might have got it wrong! I still say...I was tired of getting the text messages to watch Josh Allen games from WGR. It was horrendous! The tape doesn't lie people. 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: On the one hand, I hope Allen isn't paying any attention to this crap. On the other hand, I hope he's making a scrapbook and it's lighting his fire. It's not crap... it's the same stuff that was said about him for the past YEAR! Nothing has change...except the Bill's homer koolaid. 6 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: Well I was excited for the 1st day of camp! Again... nothing has change about the perception of Josh Allen. The fanbase can't be mad when you hear this...its been said all year long about Allen. He was considered The worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph) Sorry...I've decided to not be delusional & forget this stuff! Nothing has change Edited July 26, 2018 by Scorp83
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: Yes I do! They line him up at WR ...quite sure they have some plays installed where he's playing decoy. If people paid attention, you'll know Lamar Jackson can't catch. But, people dont pay attention...which means teams are going to probably fall for the Jackson Wideout decoy play about 5 times this year. He's a QB...& all reports out of Baltimore is he has a great chance to win the job. Huh....yea...smh ... It's my topic to begin with...? Thought reports were they were lining LJ up in the backfield, where he could either take a handoff and run, or take a handoff and throw. Makes sense and hard to defend. If they line him up as a WR just as a decoy, that won't work, because there's not an employed NFL coach who doesn't pay more attention than you imply. I'd be expecting some sort of jet sweep or reverse if I saw that.
TBBills Fan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 So the prince in nigeria isnt sending me the money??!?!!?! Oh **** ivsme got to call the bank!
CommonCents Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 Just visited the Ravens board to see what ScorpRosen is talking about with Lamar Jackson. I see some members that attended TC saying RG3 looks better than Lamar Jackson. I don’t see much of anything about him unseating Flacco.
oldmanfan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 29 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: So true! It's crazy! Its like the fanbase COMPLETELY forgot he was the one voted in the poll on WGR & on Twitter as THE QB BUFFALO DOES NOT WANT! Yet people want to be delusional like it was never the case. The reports about Josh Allen not being good or not becoming a great QB is coming from everyone under the sun, except probably 5 people in the professional media. I get it... we haven't have a QB here in decades! It's hard to hear the Bill's might have got it wrong! I still say...I was tired of getting the text messages to watch Josh Allen games from WGR. It was horrendous! The tape doesn't lie people. It's not crap... it's the same stuff that was said about him for the past YEAR! Nothing has change...except the Bill's homer koolaid. Again... nothing has change about the perception of Josh Allen. The fanbase can't be mad when you hear this...its been said all year long about Allen. He was considered The worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph) Sorry...I've decided to not be delusional & forget this stuff! Nothing has change You're right, Nothing changes. We still have people purporting to be fans of the team who want to think of nothing but gloom and doom. Let the kid play and see what he does. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: It's crazy! Its like the fanbase COMPLETELY forgot he was the one voted in the poll on WGR & on Twitter as THE QB BUFFALO DOES NOT WANT! Yet people want to be delusional like it was never the case. The reports about Josh Allen not being good or not becoming a great QB is coming from everyone under the sun, except probably 5 people in the professional media. I get it... we haven't have a QB here in decades! It's hard to hear the Bill's might have got it wrong! I still say...I was tired of getting the text messages to watch Josh Allen games from WGR. It was horrendous! The tape doesn't lie people. It's not crap... it's the same stuff that was said about him for the past YEAR! Nothing has change...except the Bill's homer koolaid. Again... nothing has change about the perception of Josh Allen. The fanbase can't be mad when you hear this...its been said all year long about Allen. He was considered The worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph) Nothing has change I believe you to be incorrect. You appear have fallen into the "absolutism fallacy" that catches so many. I'm amoung those who did NOT want the Bills to draft Josh Allen. I felt that way based upon watching his film, and a few analyses I respect. I would have preferred Josh Rosen. I'm on record with that. I felt Allen was a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. I still fell that way. Yet I can also recognize the Football Outsiders Almanac of "zero empirical evidence to support him becoming a reasonable NFL starting quarterback" and of asserting that drafting Allen as analogous to sending $$ to a Nigerian Prince is CRAP. Plainly and simply. It's hyperbole, it's based on a QBASE assessment that has some successes and some failures and actually folds "old school scouting" into its prediction, and it ignores the empirical aspects of "old school scouting" as well as the fact that intangibles do play a role. Allen remains what he is - a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. But to say he has zero chance, or there's zero evidence he could succeed, or to imply that anyone who despises comparison between drafting Allen and Nigerian swindles is drinking "homer Koolaid", is incorrect. I'm sure there are even some sources who considered Allen, as you suggest,"the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" but they were hardly universal - as you seem to imply. Something has changed - the Allen critique has totally "Jumped the Shark".
Shaw66 Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This is a pretty good summary. The only thing I'll say is that the claim by Football Outsiders is that they do, in fact, factor in the talent level on the team and how much football they played where against whom. And that's part of the problem some of us have with them. They claim it's an objective formula - but let's look at what they say it is. "QBASE favors quarterbacks expected to go high in the draft who also have a relatively long resume of college success according to the stats. Those stats include completion percentage, yards per attempt, and team passing efficiency. These numbers are adjusted both for the quality of the defenses that a prospect had to face as well as the quality of his offensive teammates. " So let's see what goes into it. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/introducing-qbase -Completion percentage -YPA -Team Passing efficiency. The NCAA formula is: [ { (8.4 * yards) + (330 * touchdowns) - (200 * interceptions) + (100 * completions) } / attempts ]. -Quality of defenses "The strength of opposing defenses was measured in the same way as Pro-Football-Reference's Simple Rating System. " -Quality of his offensive teammates "We measured teammate quality based on the draft value of offensive teammates in both the player's draft year and the following year." (OK - but there's "not drafted" and there's "truly abysmal" and can this method distinguish?) As stated, they are doubling down on completion percentage and YPA, and counting them twice. As someone who once dealt with statistics in daily life, I don't like that. Quality of defenses and Quality of offensive teammates are not objective stats kept by the NCAA, and it's not clear what they're doing. Good luck if you try to figure it out. The link above to "Simple Rating System" doesn't take me to anything that explains. Then apparently they're using the QBase number along with "College Experience" and "Projected draft slot" to conduct some sort of regression - again, details not explained. So it sounds all objective and stuff (50,000 simulations), but that all depends upon the quailty of what they're putting in there. Anyway, the real question: does it work? If you go to the link above, they show how their model applies to a bunch of QB drafted between 1997 and 2010. (Nothing I can find between 2011 and 2014, if anyone does, LMK...). Note that their color coding is inconsistent - they flag Peyton Manning as someone their model under-predicted, but they don't flag RGIII as someone their model over-predicted even though he's overpredicted to the same degree as John Beck (another model failure). Anyway, their data is there, chew it up if you like. My initial chewing is as follows: 43% of the time their model correctly predicted the QB's career 40% of the time their model over-predicted the QB's success 22% of the time their model under-predicted the QB's success. Under-predictions included Peyton Manning, Aaron Rogers, Matt Stafford, Chad Pennington,Daunte Culpepper, Drew Brees, Matt Schaub, Matt Ryan, Brian Griese, and Josh McCown (for some of these, they did predict decent careers, just not Franchise Success) Correctly predicting players gives them credit for Mike Vick and Alex Smith (they say bad, Vick had some good years esp Philly and Smith just got the Big Bucks), Vince Young and Bradford (they say good, Young as we know flamed out and Bradfordwas meh before getting sidelined by injuries) If someone offered me a statistical package for my field that was correct 43% of the time, over-predicted 40% of the time, and under-predicted 22% of the time, I would not purchase their product or make business decisions based upon it, no matter how much hyperbole about "zero chance of success" and "nigerian princes" they laded it with. Hapless I gotta thank you for this. Its one of the best things I've read in a while. Very enlightening. I like the basic stuff Outsiders does. I think their problem is that in order to monetiz their product they needed more content. To generate content they needed "data" to talk about. But once they get into the realm of college footvall, there are too many variables and they have to start using surrogates for real data. Anyway, thanks for the analysis of QBASE. Very helpful. 1
oldmanfan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I believe you to be incorrect. You appear have fallen into the "absolutism fallacy" that catches so many. I'm amoung those who did NOT want the Bills to draft Josh Allen. I felt that way based upon watching his film, and a few analyses I respect. I would have preferred Josh Rosen. I'm on record with that. I felt Allen was a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. I still fell that way. Yet I can also recognize the Football Outsiders Almanac of "zero empirical evidence to support him becoming a reasonable NFL starting quarterback" and of asserting that drafting Allen as analogous to sending $$ to a Nigerian Prince is CRAP. Plainly and simply. It's hyperbole, it's based on a QBASE assessment that has some successes and some failures and actually folds "old school scouting" into its prediction, and it ignores the empirical aspects of "old school scouting" as well as the fact that intangibles do play a role. Allen remains what he is - a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. But to say he has zero chance, or there's zero evidence he could succeed, or to imply that anyone who despises comparison between drafting Allen and Nigerian swindles is drinking "homer Koolaid", is incorrect. I'm sure there are even some sources who considered Allen, as you suggest,"the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" but they were hardly universal - as you seem to imply. Something has changed - the Allen critique has totally "Jumped the Shark". Excellent summary
Scorp83 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I believe you to be incorrect. You appear have fallen into the "absolutism fallacy" that catches so many. I'm amoung those who did NOT want the Bills to draft Josh Allen. I felt that way based upon watching his film, and a few analyses I respect. I would have preferred Josh Rosen. I'm on record with that. I felt Allen was a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. I still fell that way. Yet I can also recognize the Football Outsiders Almanac of "zero empirical evidence to support him becoming a reasonable NFL starting quarterback" and of asserting that drafting Allen as analogous to sending $$ to a Nigerian Prince is CRAP. Plainly and simply. It's hyperbole, it's based on a QBASE assessment that has some successes and some failures and actually folds "old school scouting" into its prediction, and it ignores the empirical aspects of "old school scouting" as well as the fact that intangibles do play a role. Allen remains what he is - a "high ceiling, low floor, high risk" prospect. But to say he has zero chance, or there's zero evidence he could succeed, or to imply that anyone who despises comparison between drafting Allen and Nigerian swindles is drinking "homer Koolaid", is incorrect. I'm sure there are even some sources who considered Allen, as you suggest,"the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" but they were hardly universal - as you seem to imply. Something has changed - the Allen critique has totally "Jumped the Shark". I disagree...nothing has change when people talked about Josh Allen.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: I disagree...nothing has change when people talked about Josh Allen. You can hold any opinion you like, but if you want it to be credible, you need to be able to point where people said "jump the Shark" stuff like comparing the Allen draft pick to Nigerian prince schemes or saying he has "zero empirical chance" to be good - before the draft. Put those links right here. Go. You're already discredited for your claim that Allen was universally considered " the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" when a number of national draft pundits/mock drafts exist which contradict this. For example Mayock: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000927595/article/mike-mayocks-2018-nfl-draft-position-rankings-30 Kiper: https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/mel-kipers-big-board-position-rankings-top-2018/story?id=53475544 WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/03/07/2018-nfl-draft-ranking-the-top-10-quarterbacks/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4aaf360dd756 etc. Did some guys have him 5 out of 6 (eg, Lance Zierlein), yes (had Rudolph below him). Not sure who had him last of all 6.
Scorp83 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You can hold any opinion you like, but if you want it to be credible, you need to be able to point where people said "jump the Shark" stuff like comparing the Allen draft pick to Nigerian prince schemes or saying he has "zero empirical chance" to be good - before the draft. Put those links right here. Go. You're already discredited for your claim that Allen was universally considered " the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" when a number of national draft pundits/mock drafts exist which contradict this. For example Mayock: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000927595/article/mike-mayocks-2018-nfl-draft-position-rankings-30 Kiper: https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/mel-kipers-big-board-position-rankings-top-2018/story?id=53475544 WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/03/07/2018-nfl-draft-ranking-the-top-10-quarterbacks/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4aaf360dd756 etc. Did some guys have him 5 out of 6 (eg, Lance Zierlein), yes (had Rudolph below him). Not sure who had him last of all 6. I've said there were a handful of people that felt otherwise about Allen... but that's like 5% I've been posting threads for months on almost everyone that was on one accord about him. Mayock, Chris Simms...his pop, kiper... & maybe 2 other people that were high on Allen. That's almost it. Like...I'm not going to sit & repost everything again...just so you can deem it credible. I stand by my opinion on Josh Allen, as someone that actually watched his game not YouTube clips (not saying you didn't)...but he sucked in College. Does he have a big arm...yea...so did JP Losman, does he have a good personality? Yea... but so did Fitzpatrick. Whatever "It" is... he doesn't have it. I'm on record saying "I want to be wrong about Allen" I pray that I'm totally wrong. But I've been around this game for a long time, played it & all. Played it, coaches it & all... there's nothing that jumps out that he's going to translate well. I think he's going to make some plays...but not be consistent. Heck Tannehill has made some plays... but I feel Miami should have drafted a QB too. Just because I'm not posting the same links doesn't mean what I wrote about Allen isn't credible. & yes... ignoring the entire landscape on Allen...& only believing the good about him is "Homer Koolaid" at it's finest batch! People get upset when they hear what people say about Josh Allen... yet nobody was this tight about it during the predraft. Everyone on this board wanted NOTHING to do with this man... but yet our team took him...& it's wrong to point out that they probably made the biggest mistake since Buddy Nix taking TJ Graham over Russell Wilson. That's be delusional brah 1 1
CommonCents Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: I've said there were a handful of people that felt otherwise about Allen... but that's like 5% I've been posting threads for months on almost everyone that was on one accord about him. Mayock, Chris Simms...his pop, kiper... & maybe 2 other people that were high on Allen. That's almost it. Like...I'm not going to sit & repost everything again...just so you can deem it credible. I stand by my opinion on Josh Allen, as someone that actually watched his game not YouTube clips (not saying you didn't)...but he sucked in College. Does he have a big arm...yea...so did JP Losman, does he have a good personality? Yea... but so did Fitzpatrick. Whatever "It" is... he doesn't have it. I'm on record saying "I want to be wrong about Allen" I pray that I'm totally wrong. But I've been around this game for a long time, played it & all. Played it, coaches it & all... there's nothing that jumps out that he's going to translate well. I think he's going to make some plays...but not be consistent. Heck Tannehill has made some plays... but I feel Miami should have drafted a QB too. Just because I'm not posting the same links doesn't mean what I wrote about Allen isn't credible. & yes... ignoring the entire landscape on Allen...& only believing the good about him is "Homer Koolaid" at it's finest batch! People get upset when they hear what people say about Josh Allen... yet nobody was this tight about it during the predraft. Everyone on this board wanted NOTHING to do with this man... but yet our team took him...& it's wrong to point out that they probably made the biggest mistake since Buddy Nix taking TJ Graham over Russell Wilson. That's be delusional brah I wanted Allen prior to the draft. 1
Scorp83 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Commonsense said: I wanted Allen prior to the draft. Great! Your part of the few people that did. If you've listened to WGR... you would of heard a TON of people that didn't...guests, Callers...heck our own beat reporters are on record saying they are not a fan of the pick but can understand why McBeane would take him prior to the draft. Chris Brown (who's probably better then everyone when it comes to the Bills), Joe. B., Sal C. These dudes all said they would rather take 3 other QB's over Allen... Now that the pick is made...all you hear them say "for them...they've better hope it was the right pick". I totally understand them...that's as far as they can go...they can't bash it like they want to...but they give enough to say... "look...I dont know what they were thinking" In the end, we will all be watching, & judging the front office on this pick. It was huge... & what's worse...Allen will have to be compared to Watson & Mahomes too...because they traded out of their pick that year to load up for Allen. Watson, Mahomes, Rosen, Jackson...better stink more then Allen...period Edited July 26, 2018 by Scorp83 Typo 1
Shaw66 Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 49 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: I've said there were a handful of people that felt otherwise about Allen... but that's like 5% I've been posting threads for months on almost everyone that was on one accord about him. Mayock, Chris Simms...his pop, kiper... & maybe 2 other people that were high on Allen. That's almost it. Like...I'm not going to sit & repost everything again...just so you can deem it credible. I stand by my opinion on Josh Allen, as someone that actually watched his game not YouTube clips (not saying you didn't)...but he sucked in College. Does he have a big arm...yea...so did JP Losman, does he have a good personality? Yea... but so did Fitzpatrick. Whatever "It" is... he doesn't have it. I'm on record saying "I want to be wrong about Allen" I pray that I'm totally wrong. But I've been around this game for a long time, played it & all. Played it, coaches it & all... there's nothing that jumps out that he's going to translate well. I think he's going to make some plays...but not be consistent. Heck Tannehill has made some plays... but I feel Miami should have drafted a QB too. Just because I'm not posting the same links doesn't mean what I wrote about Allen isn't credible. & yes... ignoring the entire landscape on Allen...& only believing the good about him is "Homer Koolaid" at it's finest batch! People get upset when they hear what people say about Josh Allen... yet nobody was this tight about it during the predraft. Everyone on this board wanted NOTHING to do with this man... but yet our team took him...& it's wrong to point out that they probably made the biggest mistake since Buddy Nix taking TJ Graham over Russell Wilson. That's be delusional brah I like this. It's clear, makes sense. You've watched the guy and you don't think he's a football player. That's about as good an argument against his chances as there can be. I hope you're wrong, of course. And I have a theory about how you can be wrong. I think up until now, Allen's played something that's close to sandlot ball. Go out there kid, use your athleticism and see if you can win the game for us. I don't think that's how QB is played in the NFL any more. I think NFL QBs are coaches on the field. They're programmed to execute the plays, not create plays. I think that's why Kirk Cousins got $30 million a year, or whatever. He is NOT a guy who takes the game in his hands and wins it. He's a guy who studies the plan, studies the opponent, and executes. I think the Bills see Allen as a Kirk Cousins type, but with better athleticism. I think they see a guy who will learn the system, do what he's told to do, execute the system. I don't think the Bills were looking for John Elway. They want a guy who by his very nature will buy into the process and execute. 11 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: .Allen will have to be compared to Watson & Mahomes too...because they traded out of their pick that year to load up for Allen. Watson, Mahomes, Rosen, Jackson...better stink more then Allen...period I never look at it this way. All I care about is that Allen makes it and is a solid, long-term starting QB. If he is, I don't care if any of those other guys are better. The GM's job is to get good value for his pick, not to get the best value. 2
Stank_Nasty Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) this scorp character may have overtaken xrushx for me when it comes to being the most dramatic poster on the board in recent memory. its especially annoying that he likes to lump the majority of us in with how he feels about the qb. I love how he says about 5% of the analysts out there like allen. are you freaking kidding me? a qb doesn't enter talks of being drafted in the top 5-10 on a consistent basis if he's only talked about in a positive light by about 5% of these people. dude..... you gotta dial it back. just so over the top, man. Edited July 26, 2018 by Stank_Nasty 6
Figster Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 58 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: Great! Your part of the few people that did. If you've listened to WGR... you would of heard a TON of people that didn't...guests, Callers...heck our own beat reporters are on record saying they are not a fan of the pick but can understand why McBeane would take him prior to the draft. Chris Brown (who's probably better then everyone when it comes to the Bills), Joe. B., Sal C. These dudes all said they would rather take 3 other QB's over Allen... Now that the pick is made...all you hear them say "for them...they've better hope it was the right pick". I totally understand them...that's as far as they can go...they can't bash it like they want to...but they give enough to say... "look...I dont know what they were thinking" In the end, we will all be watching, & judging the front office on this pick. It was huge... & what's worse...Allen will have to be compared to Watson & Mahomes too...because they traded out of their pick that year to load up for Allen. Watson, Mahomes, Rosen, Jackson...better stink more then Allen...period The highest wonderlic score out of the QB class. The strongest arm out of the QB class. ( may have the strongest arm the NFL has ever seen) Big, athletic, courageous, calm under pressure. Shows good leadership abilities. Wins football games. Looked good with better talent around him at the Senior bowl. Sure it was a gamble, a roll of the dice, but If Buffalo wants to end the search for a franchise QB these are the kind of chances a team has to take IMO. There's allot to like about this kid in my humble opinion. 8
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 Quote I stand by my opinion on Josh Allen, as someone that actually watched his game not YouTube clips (not saying you didn't)...but he sucked in College. Does he have a big arm...yea...so did JP Losman, does he have a good personality? Yea... but so did Fitzpatrick. Whatever "It" is... he doesn't have it. Now THIS, I'm 100% fine with. You aren't trying to make grandious claims about "universally regarded". You're stating your opinion. You watched his game, you thought he sucked in college. Fair enough. I can respect that as your opinion, acknowledging there are some other folks here who have also watched Allen live and who have a different opinion. Quote Just because I'm not posting the same links doesn't mean what I wrote about Allen isn't credible It does, I'm afraid. When what you're writing is claiming that Allen was universally considered " the worst QB prospect out of the top 6 (Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen & Rudolph)" and it's proven a number of national QB prospect rankings contradict this, it refutes the "universal" bit. Then it's really on you to show that they're only a small minority or whatever. And ya know....I've been watching you post for months, and I have never seen links, despite all the "I already posted, I'm not going to bother again just to defend myself" schtick. Why not just stick to posting your opinion as such or what you can defend? Far more credible and respected. Quote . & yes... ignoring the entire landscape on Allen...& only believing the good about him is "Homer Koolaid" at it's finest batch! Ignoring the entire landscape on Allen and focusing exclusively on the negative is a different kind of Koolaid, y'know? You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it...as your opinion... but not when it's presented as some grandiose universal claim coupled to the attempt to discredit other viewpoints by sticking a label like "homer koolaid" on them. Quote People get upset when they hear what people say about Josh Allen... yet nobody was this tight about it during the predraft. I dislike hyperbole. I dislike organizations that "jump the shark" in their negativity, and I don't care for unsupported claims about universal negative views. Quote Everyone on this board wanted NOTHING to do with this man See, there you go again with the hyperbole. That is not true. Several here were positive about Allen, including one who has a lot of football chops and reviewed a lot of film, and one who watched his games live. Probably the largest number here are dubious, but willing to reserve judgement because we recognize we are not professionals, and we give professionals the "benefit of the doubt" until proven incompetent (a la Rex) That's what being a fan means to most .... give the team the benefit of the doubt and support our guys until proven wrong. Since Allen has yet to throw a pass in an NFL game, we're not there yet. 2 1 2
Thurman#1 Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 On 7/25/2018 at 1:52 AM, Shaw66 said: Everyone's entitled to his opinion, but you'd like the opinion to make sense. He says "there's zero empirical evidence" to support him becoming a reasonable starting quarterback. What? He has one of the best arms in the history of the league, so that's some empirical evidence. He can run, so that's some empirical evidence. He had a 37 on the Wonderlic. That's some empirical evidence. His trajectory as a developing QB is trending upward. That's some empirical evidence. There is a very simple truth about college quarterbacks: If you aren't Andrew Luck, there is no reliable predictor of success in the NFL. These guys haven't even been to training camp. At this point there is no meaningful difference in the probabilities that Rosen, Allen, Mayfield and Darnold will be effective NFL starters at some point. None of them is a sure-fire starter; none of them is a sure-fire bust. Declaring any of these guys as certifiable busts now is pure guess work. Sure, it can be your opinion, but that just means you're opinion isn't supported by sufficient evidence to make it credible. Each of these guys has too many positive measureables, each of these guys has been vetted and found to be a quality prospect by multiple pro teams, to make a certifiable-bust opinion make anything but guessing. Yeah, he has a strong arm and he can run. And that's empirical. But not empirical evidence that he will be a reasonable starting QB. Otherwise there would be empirical evidence that Aroldis Chapman could become a reasonable starting quarterback. Strong arm and he can run like hell. Same with the Wonderlic. From what I can tell, even the NFL's personnel people aren't taking that seriously anymore. They give guys another test, recently, I forget the name, but one that has a bit of correlation. For evidence that a guy will be a reasonable starting QB, you need to look at performance-based evidence, specifically how he performed at playing QB. I'm with you that this "zero empirical evidence" is hyperbole. The art of picking QBs is so nebulous it's legit to question how much of the evidence can be considered empirical evidence a guy will be a successful QB. I'm hopeful. But wasn't until I saw that he'd been going to Jordan Palmer and that smarter football people than I were saying his throwing had improved each time he had a showcase in the offseason. It's legit to question his college performance. And equally legit to note that there are some real justifications for a lot of his worst numbers. Not to mention that completion percentage does NOT equal accuracy. This report makes sense, IMHO. It's very pessimistic, though. There are plenty of legit optimistic ones, as well. Here's one that I thought made me a bit more hopeful: Hard for me to take any predictions on Allen seriously, positive or negative. More than nearly any other QBs around, it's just going to be a matter of sitting back, watching what happens, hoping he develops and being happy he is apparently an extremely bright football guy and a very hard worker. 1
WPBillsFan Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 On 7/24/2018 at 12:36 PM, Teddy KGB said: Crap OP Crusade I see you catch feelings when something bad is posted about Josh Allen??? 10 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I like this. It's clear, makes sense. You've watched the guy and you don't think he's a football player. That's about as good an argument against his chances as there can be. I hope you're wrong, of course. And I have a theory about how you can be wrong. I think up until now, Allen's played something that's close to sandlot ball. Go out there kid, use your athleticism and see if you can win the game for us. I don't think that's how QB is played in the NFL any more. I think NFL QBs are coaches on the field. They're programmed to execute the plays, not create plays. I think that's why Kirk Cousins got $30 million a year, or whatever. He is NOT a guy who takes the game in his hands and wins it. He's a guy who studies the plan, studies the opponent, and executes. I think the Bills see Allen as a Kirk Cousins type, but with better athleticism. I think they see a guy who will learn the system, do what he's told to do, execute the system. I don't think the Bills were looking for John Elway. They want a guy who by his very nature will buy into the process and execute. I never look at it this way. All I care about is that Allen makes it and is a solid, long-term starting QB. If he is, I don't care if any of those other guys are better. The GM's job is to get good value for his pick, not to get the best value. After reading your post about 3 times... I disagree with this comment. Why wouldn't you want John Elway? You should want the best QB prospect you can get, now if we end up with Kirk Cousins, and those other guy's end up being better....then heck yea...I think the poster is right... Why did they pass on Mahomes? He was a raw prospect that had a better college career then Allen. What made Watson not draftable in McBeane eyes??? This has to be counted when we evaluate Allen. Sorry Shaw, I disagree... good point. But nah, the GM job is to get the best players with his picks. 1
WPBillsFan Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 9 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: this scorp character may have overtaken xrushx for me when it comes to being the most dramatic poster on the board in recent memory. its especially annoying that he likes to lump the majority of us in with how he feels about the qb. I love how he says about 5% of the analysts out there like allen. are you freaking kidding me? a qb doesn't enter talks of being drafted in the top 5-10 on a consistent basis if he's only talked about in a positive light by about 5% of these people. dude..... you gotta dial it back. just so over the top, man. I agree with him... I was wondering when somebody on these boards were going to say something. I usually sit back and read most of the threads. I can't believe how may people on this specific board love Josh Allen. It's almost like every Bill fan that loves Josh Allen is on this message board alone LOL. Well, I can tell you from social media, listening to WGR, Joe B Podcast...reading a lot of local beat writers...people do not like the Josh Allen move. I hear and read more people bashing the Josh Allen pick except when I get on here... it almost seems like this forum has been living in a bubble during the pre draft build up. I for one...just don't understand...It's like this message board decided to wipe away anything bad that was reported about Josh Allen... there's not many that like him as a QB in the NFL. Just google "Is Josh Allen going to be a bust" and watch what pops up...you might get 6 good articles saying he won't... it's hard to find professionals that love him. That's all i'm saying 1
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