Step-by-step, how the Bills knew Josh Allen was right for them

[C.Biscuit97]

50 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are getting carried away and acting as if disagreement is a personal assault. You are wrong. 

You personally called me out, wrongly, twice.  Ive PMed you and I know we will settle this there.

 

and I do apologize for trying to crush anyone’s optimism.  I’ve made my feelings clear and I do want to be wrong.  Have a good weekend, go Bills & Allen haha!

[Ramza86]

On 7/19/2018 at 8:11 AM, SoCal Deek said:

Did they ask if his college teammates went to his birthday party?  Hmmm?

 

Josh Allen mailed back the 100

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Josh Allen mailed back the 100

And he said give it to me when i win you a championship........

 

 

[BigBuff423]

21 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1) Carolina kinda sucked at wr and was willing to trade KB in the middle of a playoff hunt.  His knees are terrible, he always struggled to get separation, and has gotten worse statistically every year.

 

2) mike tolbert

 

3) Rick Dennison 

 

4) zero speed at receiver

 

5) I wanted JuJu, they traded up for Zay.  And I’m certainly not giving up on Zay but man, it was a tough start and that was before he fought for Jesus.  Also, it feels like a favor to his former college coach (as does the Proehl pick).

 

6) the Peterman start is one of the worst decisions in a long time.

 

 

 

1. Benjamin is still in his prime and it's a one year contract as an extension on his rookie  contract - I don't think this argument holds water at all, IMO

2. Tolbert was basically a FB in the Offense and while he was largely inept, they needed a big body because they knew they need to be a run first (almost only) team but he wasn't brought back...that says something as well. Yes it was obvious, but they still let him walk after they got what they needed out of him .

3. Dennison was not his first choice...you remember right? After the coaching carousel settled and McCoy said no thank you - you get a guy who you need but maybe didn't really want...he had to make a decision in a short span of time when some of the better guys were taking jobs elsewhere, hence Daboll. And who knows with Daboll, but lots can be said for being a part of the NE Offense for years and winning the national Title. Before you say Saban, go back and read what Daboll was begging Saban to do starting in November which was to change QBs. It was also Daboll that resurrected their Offense in the second half of the title game.

4. Zero speed....how did Goodwin work out? How about Listenbee? Point being, speed alone doesn't do it...also, Ray-Ray, is fast. So in the end, let's not judge a WR based on speed alone.

5. Ju-Ju had his own issues, but played with Big Ben and AB on the other side not to mention Bell...you really want to compare Offenses? C'mon, you're better than that....had Tyrod been throwing Ju-Ju the ball, it would have been a very different story for him

6. Peterman....man, I'm sick of having this discussion, but everyone looks at the 5 INTs and they were bad...but you're not putting into context how freaking HORRIBLE Tyrod was for two to three weeks leading up to that decision. Bills were losing and they were in the thick of the playoff hunt in the middle of their season...McD decided a change had to be made. Sorry, but when you combine DeMarco's deflected off his hands INT, Mills basically napping the whole game and Benjamin not being himself while Zay was also injured but we didn't know it, I give Peterman a mulligan as a whole...then when you consider Tyrod's work leading up to that game, I understand the decision when put into context. 

 

At the end of the day, to me, it just sounds like they don't agree with you and you want faster results of making the Offense dominant, ala Green Bay / Atlanta / NE / Saints....and with so much already said about Cap space, poor personnel decision before Beane ever got on a plane to Buffalo, and Tyrod, to me anyone is crazy to think the Offense and the Defense could be fixed in one year...it's going to take three years. Whaley screwed it up with contracts and poor Drafting in some areas, namely Offensive talent. So, I have no idea how Allen will do or how Beane and company will do with their decisions, but IMHO it way, way too early to call them "horrible" decisions. 

[GunnerBill]

Doug Whaley who "screwed up with offensive talent" put together a roster that in a single year had: Sammy Watkins; Robert Woods; Chris Hogan; Percy Harvin and Marquise Goodwin at wide receiver and LeSean McCoy, Karlos Williams (a record breaker as a rookie) and Mike Gillislee at running back. I sure hope Beane finds a way to screw up that well. 

 

Now don't get me wrong.... I agree it wasn't all going to be a quick fix because the salary cap situation was tight and it is clear Beane and McDermott felt starting again with a new culture was more important than quick fixes with talent in years 1 and 2. They overachieved while doing it last year which reinforces what I feel about McDermott - he can coach. 

 

But the idea that the offensive cupboard is bare because of Doug Whaley is a little far fetched. It is bare because of deliberate decisions this regime has made to change the culture and start again. I dont quite agree with C.Biscuit that they are horrible at evaluating offensive talent. I think they knew the moves they were making were going to sting in the short term. The payoff is supposed to come in 2019 and beyond. 

 

 

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Doug Whaley who "screwed up with offensive talent" put together a roster that in a single year had: Sammy Watkins; Robert Woods; Chris Hogan; Percy Harvin and Marquise Goodwin at wide receiver and LeSean McCoy, Karlos Williams (a record breaker as a rookie) and Mike Gillislee at running back. I sure hope Beane finds a way to screw up that well. 

 

Now don't get me wrong.... I agree it wasn't all going to be a quick fix because the salary cap situation was tight and it is clear Beane and McDermott felt starting again with a new culture was more important than quick fixes with talent in years 1 and 2. They overachieved while doing it last year which reinforces what I feel about McDermott - he can coach. 

 

But the idea that the offensive cupboard is bare because of Doug Whaley is a little far fetched. It is bare because of deliberate decisions this regime has made to change the culture and start again. I dont quite agree with C.Biscuit that they are horrible at evaluating offensive talent. I think they knew the moves they were making were going to sting in the short term. The payoff is supposed to come in 2019 and beyond. 

 

 

3

3

Two firsts and a fourth for a WR who has never even been a top 10 receiver was a moronic move from watching too many highlight films. Then Watkins made all those yards in screens at Clemson. His best NFL season catches wise (65) he was the 24th WR and his best season yards wise he was the 22nd best WR. An argument can be made that the Buffalo Bills FO were utterly foolish for giving up that much for a WR especially when they didn't have a legit franchise QB to throw to him. 

 

Stating that, yeah Tom Brady would have a field day with all those receivers, EJ, Orton, Taylor not so much. BTW, it took Rex Ryan to bring in Tyrod Taylor or who knows what scrub Whaley would have brought in to throw to them.

 

Then the offensive line before Incognito was not so good with both Woods, Glenns play falling off and again Rex Ryan was the reason for the resurging line as he vouched for Richie. The line would have been even better had he been able to obtain OG/OT La'el Collins.

 

The Bills just purged themselves of Nix's, Whaley's mistakes and it will really show up next year in cap space. The Buffalo Bills already made the playoffs without all those names and without Dareus who is trouble again. 

 

So far I love what Beane and McD have done and KB might not get great separation or have world-class speed. What he does bring is that big, tall red zone target that the Bills have been wanting forever. I can recall the Bills FO stating that right after they drafted Watkins that they still needed that big, tall red zone target.

 

Why they didn't draft Mike Evans is beyond me. Khalil Mack, Mike Evans,... Anthony Barr, Taylor Lewan, Odell Beckham, Aaron Donald, Ryan Shazier, Zack Martin, CJ Mosley, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Brandon Cooks, Jason Verrett, Teddy Bridgewater, DeMarcus Lawrence, Derek Carr, Devante Adams, Allen Robinson, Jarvis Landry would have all been a better use of a first round pick and even the 2015 first round pick too would have been nice to have. 

 

The clear facts are that Doug Whaley and his scouts had little clue as to how to properly evaluate talent or need. There is a real reason he was fired and hasn't been hired as a GM by another team.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Nihilarian

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

This is basically what most people have been thinking and just reaffirms my suspicions and how completion percentage is not an apples to apples comparison.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Two firsts and a fourth for a WR who has never even been a top 10 receiver was a moronic move from watching too many highlight films. Then Watkins made all those yards in screens at Clemson. His best NFL season catches wise (65) he was the 24th WR and his best season yards wise he was the 22nd best WR. An argument can be made that the Buffalo Bills FO were utterly foolish for giving up that much for a WR especially when they didn't have a legit franchise QB to throw to him. 

 

Stating that, yeah Tom Brady would have a field day with all those receivers, EJ, Orton, Taylor not so much. BTW, it took Rex Ryan to bring in Tyrod Taylor or who knows what scrub Whaley would have brought in to throw to them.

 

Then the offensive line before Incognito was not so good with both Woods, Glenns play falling off and again Rex Ryan was the reason for the resurging line as he vouched for Richie. The line would have been even better had he been able to obtain OG/OT La'el Collins.

 

The Bills just purged themselves of Nix's, Whaley's mistakes and it will really show up next year in cap space. The Buffalo Bills already made the playoffs without all those names and without Dareus who is trouble again. 

 

So far I love what Beane and McD have done and KB might not get great separation or have world-class speed. What he does bring is that big, tall red zone target that the Bills have been wanting forever. I can recall the Bills FO stating that right after they drafted Watkins that they still needed that big, tall red zone target.

 

Why they didn't draft Mike Evans is beyond me. Khalil Mack, Mike Evans,... Anthony Barr, Taylor Lewan, Odell Beckham, Aaron Donald, Ryan Shazier, Zack Martin, CJ Mosley, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Brandon Cooks, Jason Verrett, Teddy Bridgewater, DeMarcus Lawrence, Derek Carr, Devante Adams, Allen Robinson, Jarvis Landry would have all been a better use of a first round pick and even the 2015 first round pick too would have been nice to have. 

 

The clear facts are that Doug Whaley and his scouts had little clue as to how to properly evaluate talent or need. There is a real reason he was fired and hasn't been hired as a GM by another team.

 

You mistake my post for being a post saying Whaley was a good GM. I happen to thing he was a pretty good talent evaluater but a bad team builder. 

 

That said my post was directly responding to the accusation that Whaley had left a vaccum of offensive talent. Whaley built the best roster of skill position players of any time in the drought and the wet behind the ears owners hired a complete moron to ruin the defense. Yes Rex might be responsible for Richie and Tyrod. But that is about all he did that was good. He ruined an elite defense. The man sucked as bad as it is possible to suck and never stood up and took any accountability while preaching it to his team. 

 

Whaley built a talented offense and when McDermott stepped through the door many of those pieces were still in place. Did the salary cap situation he was left force some difficult decisions? Yes. 

 

As I have said above I think McBean know they have made the offense worse. I think they know Watkins > Benjamin, Woods > Zay Jones, Gillislee > Ivory and Tyrod > AJ. But I also think by and large (probably not with Zay) they expected that. They had a dead cap situation to fix and a defense to prioritise. I am not anti McBean. Far from it. McDermott was my guy even before Rex was canned. The man can flat out coach. And Beane and he are aligned so that is a win. All I am saying is to say the reason our offense is bad is Whaley couldn't evaluate offensive talent is ridiculous when all his skill guys except Karlos are still making a good living (most as starters) in this league. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You mistake my post for being a post saying Whaley was a good GM. I happen to thing he was a pretty good talent evaluater but a bad team builder. 

 

That said my post was directly responding to the accusation that Whaley had left a vaccum of offensive talent. Whaley built the best roster of skill position players of any time in the drought and the wet behind the ears owners hired a complete moron to ruin the defense. Yes Rex might be responsible for Richie and Tyrod. But that is about all he did that was good. He ruined an elite defense. The man sucked as bad as it is possible to suck and never stood up and took any accountability while preaching it to his team. 

 

Whaley built a talented offense and when McDermott stepped through the door many of those pieces were still in place. Did the salary cap situation he was left force some difficult decisions? Yes. 

 

As I have said above I think McBean know they have made the offense worse. I think they know Watkins > Benjamin, Woods > Zay Jones, Gillislee > Ivory and Tyrod > AJ. But I also think by and large (probably not with Zay) they expected that. They had a dead cap situation to fix and a defense to prioritise. I am not anti McBean. Far from it. McDermott was my guy even before Rex was canned. The man can flat out coach. And Beane and he are aligned so that is a win. All I am saying is to say the reason our offense is bad is Whaley couldn't evaluate offensive talent is ridiculous when all his skill guys except Karlos are still making a good living (most as starters) in this league. 

The fundamental mistake that Whaley made was not making it a priority to address the qb position. It appeared that he was going to use a first round pick on a qb in his last year but he was too late because he lost his authority, and then let go. You listed the playmakers that Whaley assembled. Without question they were good. But especially for the receivers their talents were not maximized because there was a void at qb. Wood playing with Goff is revitalized; Wood playing with TT was invisible. 

 

This franchise didn't have a legitimate franchise qb for a generation. That should have been his priority from the start. That avoidance on the issue was inexcusable and perplexing. Few people will disagree with you that the Rex hire was a fiasco that set this franchise back. The owners are to blame for that. But maybe the irascible Marrone would have stayed if he had a competent qb to work with. The rebuilding process was started when he took over and it seemed that it was advancing under him. However, the qb issue clouded what he wanted to do and made him consider the buyout even when things were moving in the right direction.. I'm confident that if a capable qb was in place he would have stayed. His leaving the job reflected his lack of confidence in Whaley.

 

With respect to the roster that McDermott inherited it was clear right from the start that he was going to not only remake the roster but remake the organization from top to bottom. That's why he was hired by Pegula. It wasn't to implement incremental change but to completely rebuild the organization from the front office, to the roster to the restructuring of the cap. 

 

Whaley wasn't a bad GM but the bottom line was that he wasn't good enough. The McBeane tandem is an upgrade from what preceded them. In the short term there are going to be struggles but I'm optimistic in the not too distant future. 

[Nihilarian]

Whaley's failure wasn't the fact that he didn't target a QB as he did scout and draft EJ. It was the fact that he kept attempting to build a mostly skill player offense around a bad QB. 

 

Let's also not forget that he drafts a rookie QB in EJ and has no senior QB on the roster to help groom him. That year they had rookie EJ, near rookie Thad Lewis, and rookie Jeff Tuel as the QB's on the roster. Plus no QB coach and the only guy teaching these young QB's was an OC who had no previous NFL OC experience. Simply put, moronic!

 

Not to mention that this was the year of OG Colin Brown who started six games before being outright cut. Doug Legursky was another bad player who was the worst player on the Steelers line who was brought in to be the backup center and ended up the starting LG because Colin Brown was even worse. Sam Young, really?

That season the Bills O-line ranked 29th with a rookie QB starting!!

 

Whaley was a bad GM from his signing guys like OG Chris Williams for four years 13.5 mill with 5.5 million in guaranteed money...and the guy lasted 3 games! 

 

"I am particularly excited about the direction our offensive line is moving in because we wanted to address this position," general manager Doug Whaley said in a statement released by the team. "We feel like we filled the need with a very good player."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10594140/chris-williams-signs-buffalo-bills

 

The guy was the worst player on a bad rams line the year before and Whaley thought he was a quality starter! 

 

The Bills signed WR Mike Williams...Whaley let Chris Hogan leave for the Patriots.

 

The list of Doug Whaley's screw-ups is almost endless...

[Ol Dirty B]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:30 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

My source was that Mayfield and Rosen were both subject to concerns about their fit in the organisation and willingness to buy into the process.  I don't know that they had a 1st round grade on Rudolph either (though I have heard since that 5 franchises did) but just that they were willing to take him later in the first.  He would not have been the pick at 12.  I understand the Bills were not high on Jackson at any stage.

 

Can you explain to me why a Londoner has a Bills contact? Or are you a transplant living in Buffalo. I was gonna attempt to call you out on being Michael Davies and get my book signed because I know he pulls for the Bills, but then I remembered he's a Chelsea fan.

 

BTW !@#$ Ozil. That might be unnecessary, but he betrayed me this summer.

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You mistake my post for being a post saying Whaley was a good GM. I happen to thing he was a pretty good talent evaluater but a bad team builder. 

 

That said my post was directly responding to the accusation that Whaley had left a vaccum of offensive talent. Whaley built the best roster of skill position players of any time in the drought and the wet behind the ears owners hired a complete moron to ruin the defense. Yes Rex might be responsible for Richie and Tyrod. But that is about all he did that was good. He ruined an elite defense. The man sucked as bad as it is possible to suck and never stood up and took any accountability while preaching it to his team. 

 

Whaley built a talented offense and when McDermott stepped through the door many of those pieces were still in place. Did the salary cap situation he was left force some difficult decisions? Yes. 

 

As I have said above I think McBean know they have made the offense worse. I think they know Watkins > Benjamin, Woods > Zay Jones, Gillislee > Ivory and Tyrod > AJ. But I also think by and large (probably not with Zay) they expected that. They had a dead cap situation to fix and a defense to prioritise. I am not anti McBean. Far from it. McDermott was my guy even before Rex was canned. The man can flat out coach. And Beane and he are aligned so that is a win. All I am saying is to say the reason our offense is bad is Whaley couldn't evaluate offensive talent is ridiculous when all his skill guys except Karlos are still making a good living (most as starters) in this league. 

 

Seriously McDermott was your guy before rex was canned? I'm only doubting you because his defense, granted starting almost all new players in the secondary, took a deep decline after being dominant and gave up 300 yards to Julio. He was no where on my radar. Not saying he's bad, but overseeing a defense that regressed as bad as that one did, even considering the personnel drop off. They usually don't get the job.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

The fundamental mistake that Whaley made was not making it a priority to address the qb position. It appeared that he was going to use a first round pick on a qb in his last year but he was too late because he lost his authority, and then let go. You listed the playmakers that Whaley assembled. Without question they were good. But especially for the receivers their talents were not maximized because there was a void at qb. Wood playing with Goff is revitalized; Wood playing with TT was invisible. 

 

This franchise didn't have a legitimate franchise qb for a generation. That should have been his priority from the start. That avoidance on the issue was inexcusable and perplexing. Few people will disagree with you that the Rex hire was a fiasco that set this franchise back. The owners are to blame for that. But maybe the irascible Marrone would have stayed if he had a competent qb to work with. The rebuilding process was started when he took over and it seemed that it was advancing under him. However, the qb issue clouded what he wanted to do and made him consider the buyout even when things were moving in the right direction.. I'm confident that if a capable qb was in place he would have stayed. His leaving the job reflected his lack of confidence in Whaley.

 

With respect to the roster that McDermott inherited it was clear right from the start that he was going to not only remake the roster but remake the organization from top to bottom. That's why he was hired by Pegula. It wasn't to implement incremental change but to completely rebuild the organization from the front office, to the roster to the restructuring of the cap. 

 

Whaley wasn't a bad GM but the bottom line was that he wasn't good enough. The McBeane tandem is an upgrade from what preceded them. In the short term there are going to be struggles but I'm optimistic in the not too distant future. 

 

Again. I was not defending Whaley as a GM. I was arguing against the assertion that the lack of talent currently on offense being his fault. It's not. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Can you explain to me why a Londoner has a Bills contact? Or are you a transplant living in Buffalo. I was gonna attempt to call you out on being Michael Davies and get my book signed because I know he pulls for the Bills, but then I remembered he's a Chelsea fan.

 

BTW !@#$ Ozil. That might be unnecessary, but he betrayed me this summer.

 

Seriously McDermott was your guy before rex was canned? I'm only doubting you because his defense, granted starting almost all new players in the secondary, took a deep decline after being dominant and gave up 300 yards to Julio. He was no where on my radar. Not saying he's bad, but overseeing a defense that regressed as bad as that one did, even considering the personnel drop off. They usually don't get the job.

 

First things first, no I am not a transplant. I am British not from London originally but lived here 12 years. I go to quite a few of the NFLUK events they run and at one of them I got talking to a guy who it turned out used to coach in the NFL and now has moved to London with his wife and lives here. He was only a position coach not a big name but we swapped numbers and message occasionally about NFL stuff more generally. He is not usually a pedaller of gossip but he text me after the draft saying he knew a guy who is now in the building at OBD and he had told him after it was all said and done "we were never taking Rosen or Mayfield". My former coach friend disagrees with me on Allen as well by the way - he does go in for the Carson Wentz comparisons, I don't. 

 

As for Ozil? My default position is !@#$ him. For £350k a week I expect a person at least to run around a bit.

 

And on McDermott - yep. I thought that had Carolina not made the Superbowl the year before he would have got a job that offseason. I know it has happened the last couple of years but for years before that teams didn't wait on coordinators coaching in the Superbowl to come free. I have followed McDermott's career since Philly and I think he always produced well coached defenses and he is just my type of Head Coach candidate. Serious and sincere. I did a list on here halfway through Rex's 2nd season (I had been riding the Fire Rex bandwaggon since the London game in his 1st year) and there were 4 names on it. I think McDermott from memory was 2nd on that list. 

 

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

And on McDermott - yep. I thought that had Carolina not made the Superbowl the year before he would have got a job that offseason. I know it has happened the last couple of years but for years before that teams didn't wait on coordinators coaching in the Superbowl to come free. I have followed McDermott's career since Philly and I think he always produced well coached defenses and he is just my type of Head Coach candidate. Serious and sincere. I did a list on here halfway through Rex's 2nd season (I had been riding the Fire Rex bandwaggon since the London game in his 1st year) and there were 4 names on it. I think McDermott from memory was 2nd on that list. 

 

I believe that when McDermott took over it was  with the  intention of being involved in a three to four year rebuilding job that included not only the roster but also the organization. I still marvel at what he accomplished last year with such a thinned out roster. The wrestling coach is intent on getting his type of players/guys and dispatching those who weren't on board with his vision. Getting into the playoffs last year with that roster was a tremendous achievement. I still believe that they are at least two to three years away from being a serious team. From a record standpoint there is a good probability that it won't match last year's record. But the trajectory is clearly upward.