QB rumors about importance of concussions in choices

[RocCityRoller]

59 minutes ago, ChevyVanMiller said:

Close your parentheses.

 

If serious, don't be the guy who argues semantics and grammar

 

I was involved in an online political debate the other day and when exhausted of facts and points my opponent stated:

"you misused a non-defining relative clause, dummy. try again"

 

Who the Fu#k knows what that is other than some over educated, good for nothing dumb @ss?

 

I had to look up what a 'non-defining relative clause' was.

I found it between 'micro-aggression' and 'trigger warning' in the @ss hat dictionary.

 

The proper insult would have been:

'You misused a non-defining relative clause dummy. Try again.'

 

His punctuation was terrible for such an educated lad.

 

Moral of the story: don't be 'that guy'.

Edited July 15, 2018 by RocCityRoller

[boater]

10 hours ago, KingRex said:

 

...as a temporary consultant did not feel bound to team secrecy....

 

Doesn't pass the whiff test right there.

 

I'm sure the Bills don't bring anyone into a sensitive meeting without a Non-Disclosure Agreement in place.

[RoyBatty is alive]

"Rosen apparently graded out statistically as a significant concussion risk"

 

Duh..it didnt take an alleged concussion expert to ascertain that a QB that couldnt play in his final bowl game after suffering a concussion over a month before might be high risk for it.

 

There is nothing new here and I dont believe any part time consultant wouldn't feel bound to secrecy, the NFL doesn't operate that was.  Hence this is somewhat hard to accept at face value.

Edited July 15, 2018 by RoyBatty is alive

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

Doesn't pass the whiff test right there.

 

I'm sure the Bills don't bring anyone into a sensitive meeting without a Non-Disclosure Agreement in place.

They might if it's 'Dunkirk Dave / Don'.

 

??

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I would be fine on a tie breaker but if the OP claim that Rosen was otherwise rated higher is true how would you feel?

I would hate it. It is worth consideration but as a tiebreaker. Rosen has been my guy for a couple of years. I hope I’m wrong. 

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, KingRex said:

 

 

Even worse, the odd Rosen $ problem is that his family has a lot (he is an heir to a fortune based on the Purell product apparently).  Apparently the haughtiness, self-confidence, and even arrogance he demonstrated in public comments and in interviews led the Bills to a conclusion (or at least a fear if they committed a bunch of time and Pegula $ to a 1st round pick) that if/when Rosen faces a future with a potential of brain damage at retirement he will simply walk away with his first rounder accolades, whatever $ from his contract he can keep and future family money.

 

 

At any rate this is the latest wild rumor I hear but it makes sense to me.

 

 

THIS paragraph makes sense to you??

 

Rosen's "Haughtiness and attitude", his "future with a potential for brain damage" and "Purell fortune" convinced Pegula that thye should pass on him? 

 

If that is true, the Bills FO is in rough shape.  None of that makes sense.  There is no way one can predict who will, in the future, suffer "brain damage at retirement" (I assume you mean career ending brain injury, because nearly all  of these kids enter the NFL with evidence of CTE already in their brain tissue) before they start their NFL career. 

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

Health considerations have always been a consideration when making decisions on personnel. But now it is even more prominent  because of cap a and financial considerations. If a prospect has a history of knee problems, or maybe worse, back problems, that certainly is going to become a factor in selecting a player, or at a minimum when you select that player. 

 

As you noted from both the player and organization perspectives the issue of long-term health factors will become more prominent issues not only due to the health implications post career but also because the money is so great for many players (not all) that players will have the option to leave this brutal and punishing game earlier and healthier.   

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

THIS paragraph makes sense to you??

 

Rosen's "Haughtiness and attitude", his "future with a potential for brain damage" and "Purell fortune" convinced Pegula that thye should pass on him? 

 

If that is true, the Bills FO is in rough shape.  None of that makes sense.  There is no way one can predict who will, in the future, suffer "brain damage at retirement" (I assume you mean career ending brain injury, because nearly all  of these kids enter the NFL with evidence of CTE already in their brain tissue) before they start their NFL career. 

If a player has a history of concussions in college (not just talking about Rosen) that certainly will be an issue for teams to consider when evaluating players. 

 

I was a Rosen fan but make no mistake about it his personality was certainly intensely scrutinized by teams considering drafting him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if other highly rated prospects were moved higher on their boards because of it. 

[Mr. WEO]

29 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Health considerations have always been a consideration when making decisions on personnel. But now it is even more prominent  because of cap a and financial considerations. If a prospect has a history of knee problems, or maybe worse, back problems, that certainly is going to become a factor in selecting a player, or at a minimum when you select that player. 

 

As you noted from both the player and organization perspectives the issue of long-term health factors will become more prominent issues not only due to the health implications post career but also because the money is so great for many players (not all) that players will have the option to leave this brutal and punishing game earlier and healthier.   

If a player has a history of concussions in college (not just talking about Rosen) that certainly will be an issue for teams to consider when evaluating players. 

 

I was a Rosen fan but make no mistake about it his personality was certainly intensely scrutinized by teams considering drafting him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if other highly rated prospects were moved higher on their boards because of it. 

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

^^^

11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yep.  I think that is a big reason why Glenn got traded and they let EJ Gaines walk.  But as for Tyrod, I'm not so sure that....j/k.

 

Right-o ... except that the Bills had no problem trading for a WR (Benjamin) who had a history of knee trouble while in Carolina and who had an injury when they traded for him.  Glenn's injury was the only significant injury of his career.  Unfortunately, it happened to be one that was serious and that took a long time to heal.  It may have not been dealt with the best way at the beginning -- I believe they put off surgery for quite a while hoping it would heal on its own -- which may have added to the recovery time.  Certainly the injury -- and Glenn's hefty salary -- didn't prevent Cinci from jumping at the chance to improve their OL.   Of course, even Marvin Lewis has figured out that his QB can't hit his blue chip WR if he's getting knocked on his arse on most passing plays.

 

Of course, the Bills drafted a QB who has had at least one significant shoulder injury, which could be terminal for any QB's NFL career if it affects his ability to throw the football.  Who's to say that that another shoulder doesn't come back to shorten Allen's career?   The injuries that have prematurely ended NFL QBs' careers aren't just limited to concussions or should injuries though -- and they can happen at any time whether that QB has a history of similar injuries or not.  It takes only one.

 

2 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

 

Well, "3-5 very good NFL seasons" trumps a single mediocre one.  Matt Schaub, who was drafted in the third round of the 2004 draft, had about that many good seasons as the starter in Houston while JP Losman whom the Bills traded up to get (giving up their 2005 first rounder BTW) had only 1 decent season, 2006.  I'm not saying that Allen will bust, but he's a big gamble, and Beane's/McDermott's squandering of their 2018 draft capital to get him and Edmunds  makes it even less likely that he'll succeed.  Plain and simple, he doesn't have the talent around him to succeed because outside of McCoy, Clay, Dawkins, and Benjamin -- when he's healthy -- the Bills are utterly lacking in talent on the offensive side of the ball.  The offense is little more than a collection of JAGs, busts, and never-weres, and frankly, the Bills don't seem all that interested in improving that. 

 

As for the OP, I find the claims of the OP's "source" having "inside information" silly.  His "points" seem like the pontifications of an ignorant blow-hard sitting at a bar with his fifth or sixth Genny Cream, and are literally a rehash of all the reasons that anonymous posters on this MB offered over and over again as to why the Bills shouldn't take Rosen.  His "explanation" for why the Bills traded Taylor, however, is more original but hardly plausible.  Taylor has proven to be pretty durable over his three years in Buffalo despite the doomsters' warnings, particularly before 2017 when he played behind a better OL.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

13 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

I think it is absurd to suggest that Tyrod was let go because of a concussion risk.  That is probably factor 17 on the list of reasons why they let him go.

 

If the Bills truly believed Josh Rosen to be the better QB but passed on him because of "interview chemistry", negative public comments, and because of some abstract fear he will walk away from the game prematurely due to family wealth, they are dumber than I thought.

 

 

 

 

 

We,ll apparently there were what 9 or 10 other teams just as dumb.  IMO the fact that Rosen dropped as far as he did shows that most teams in the league had similar feelings.  Once you get down to the tenth or so pick, not as much to lose if the pick doesn't work out.

 

[NoSaint]

51 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

 

Its likewise my hope that they took the player they preferred on the field based on skill.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

 

 

They were more cocky than arrogant and any issues they had were centered around football, not politics or other things. Having huge amounts of outside money does make a difference in today's world.

 

Rosen doesn't have a a history of having his bell rung, it's having concussions.  Back in the day of Marino, Kelly, and Elway  yes it was having their bell rung, today it's called a concussion. I'm sure in todays NFL in the last minute of the Bills 1st SB against the Giants, in today's rules Kelly would have been removed from the game.

 

30 years ago players weren't removed from games and then needed to be cleared by a doctor before they could return.  So to think in today's world a team wouldn't not pick a player (particularly near the top of round 1)  due to a history of concussions is very naive.

 

Was that the only reasons he wasn't selected, I'm sure it also had to do with overall they felt Allan was better or had more upside, but am also certai nthese factors played into it.  And as I stated in earlier post, 10 other teams seemed to agree.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[JohnC]

54 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

The historical qbs you referred to were from  an era of the past. The present is a different era where medical considerations for all types of injuries are now more scrutinized than compared to when those qbs played. That is simply a fact. 

 

I don't know why the Bills passed on Rosen. The brain trust might simply believe  (as you noted) that in the long run Josh Allen is a better pro prospect. But it is wrong to believe that physical and personality considerations were not part of the evaluation process. With respect to the physical considerations I'm sure that the medical staff was involved in the evaluation process. 

[Shaw66]

This is an interesting rumor.  I suspect there's some measure of truth in this. 

 

What I find interesting is that this describes the kind of detail that this leadership studies in making their decisions.   Sure, everyone knew that Rosen had had a concussion and there was some general concern about how well he'll hold up in the NFL.   But this suggests that the Bills tried to get an understanding of the probabilities of various QBs (Taylor and the draft candidates) having long-term careers as starters.  That's not the kind of thinking that Rex and Whaley were doing, at least so far as we know.   This kind of thinking is what the PROS mean when they talk about analytics.

 

Was Taylor a concussion risk?   I think so.  We saw him get dinged several times.  His style of play certainly leads to his getting hit more frequently than most QBs.  Does that decide the issue?  Of course not, but when you're evaluating the future of your team at this position, you consider all factors.  Is he good enough to be a pro starter (in Taylor's case, marginally), and what are the chances you'll actually have him for the long term?  Makes sense that a detail-oriented management would study and quantify things as the OP suggests.  

 

So why is Glenn gone and Benjamin still on the roster?   The calculus is different in each case.   First, they're position players, and their long-term futures are less important than QB.   You lose a lineman or a receiver, you move on.   Second, the Bills had an answer at left tackle, they didn't have an answer at wideout, so taking the health risk on Benjamin and not on Glenn makes sense.  Third, the Bills had detailed information about the health histories of both, so they would have known whose injuries were more likely to be chronic.   The same kind of probability analysis may have told them that Glenn's probability of being off the field a lot was greater than Benjamin's.    In any case, the injury probabilities wouldn't have been the ONLY factor considered, but those probabilities likely contributed to the decisions.  

 

Thanks for the OP.  

 

[McNubbins]

At any rate, could have just said concussions played a factor in TT leaving and drafting Allen and saved me some time.

[klos63]

13 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

You forgot to put that in parenthesis.  

was the whole post in parenthesis?

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

I stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

I refuse to turn this into a TT thread

 

I think that Rosen's style of play also plays into this.....he is not mobile (and yes we wanted a pocket passer but you have to be able to escape trouble at times) and as I watch Rosen while incredib accurate also has this habit of stepping right into hits.....that is a not for long qb I dont care how frail or strong your body is.

 

With Allen......I think it could be entirely possible that at this moment in time Rosen might be better.....but lets not forget that Allen probably has not reached his ceiling as a qb....and qbs drafted can be at a certain level and when it is all said and done the qb with the higher ceiling can end up being the better qb in a couple of years.

 

I just hope that the bills dont try to use Josh Allen the athlete in their game plan and have him make his throws from the pocket and keep his ability to run in his back pocket for when nobody is open situations and not the other way around....a big strong cannon armed qb with a quick release......then run like a deer for that first down when all else fails.

[billsfan89]

If you want to say that the Bills thought Rosen had too significant a concussion issue for them to draft him then I think your argument could hold weight if the chatter about concussions is true. However, Rosen coming from an extremely wealthy family has nothing to do with anything regarding him as a football player. Josh Allen coming from a more modest background doesn't mean that he loves the game anymore or less. If Allen were to collect a massive 10 figure contract 8+ years into his career then he is set for life and just as likely to retire as any other QB. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

I stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

 

I would personally be happy if we had a QB with 3-5 very good NFL seasons.  Among other things, 5 seasons would allow us to draft 2-3  promising QB in the 2-4 round each year and try to develop them a la Jimmy G or Cousins

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Its likewise my hope that they took the player they preferred on the field based on skill.

I'm going beyond the issue of Rosen and Allen and how Buffalo evaluated and ranked these specific qbs. There are prospects who may be tremendous prospects but are not suited for intense markets such as New York, Philly and Chicago. There are prospects who can thrive with certain types of HCs and not with other types of HCs. Not all players are going to thrive working under a Belichick or even a Marrone. Certain players may thrive under a Tony Dungy type HC while others may not play up to their potential under him. There are players who thrive under a bombastic Rex type of coach and there are players who recoil at the thought of working for a coach like him. 

 

My general point is that often it is the circumstances and environment that have to be factored in when evaluating whether a particular prospect is going to succeed at the location he is going to. Part of the evaluation process for each team is determining whether the prospect under consideration is a fit for their organization and even city.