3rdnlng Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 We pay 75% of NATO's budget to protect Europe et al from mainly Russia. Most other countries pay less than half of the 3.5% of GDP that we pay. Germany, the richest country in Europe pays 1.2% of their GDP into NATO. The EU basically screws us on tariffs. For example, our tariff on a BMW's or Mercedes coming from overseas is a measly 2.5% while the EU's tariff on a Ford built in the USA is 10%. Germany is importing about 12 billion dollars of natural gas from Russia annually. The USA can now export liquified natural gas to Europe. I look at NATO and the EU in some ways as being different arms of the same body. WTF are we doing by allowing the people that we basically protect from Russia to screw us on tariffs and then put money into Russia's coffers? I think it's well past the time to correct this nonsense and it appears that we have a president in place who not only recognizes that but is willing to use our economic and military might to do something about it. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 we thanks the US for its service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I think this is the time when people like Tibs/baskin/gator explains that all these countries we're protecting are our friends, and now that we're threatening to not protect them anymore, they will no longer be our friends. And if we can't have friends like Germany and France, who the hell is going to hire James Taylor to play a song for them. Or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 One of the few things Trump has been right on from the start is the current condition of NATO and its European freeloaders. Those guys have been getting the discounted lunch for a long time. Most of those central European militaries would fall within a month if there were a conventional land war. It'd be the Fins and Norwegians skiing to the rescue in Paris. As an aside, considering Germany's military history, the country's rich history of technological innovation and the Western investment into that country post World War II, it is sad to see their military in such poor shape. They should be the alpha in that region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, LABillzFan said: I think this is the time when people like Tibs/baskin/gator explains that all these countries we're protecting are our friends, and now that we're threatening to not protect them anymore, they will no longer be our friends. And if we can't have friends like Germany and France, who the hell is going to hire James Taylor to play a song for them. Or something like that. but Russia for the first time is seen as a threat by American liberals, and after they so righteously defended the USSR from 1918 through 1989... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, LABillzFan said: I think this is the time when people like Tibs/baskin/gator explains that all these countries we're protecting are our friends, and now that we're threatening to not protect them anymore, they will no longer be our friends. And if we can't have friends like Germany and France, who the hell is going to hire James Taylor to play a song for them. Or something like that. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=james+taylor+john+kerry+video&view=detail&mid=9ADBD4725B0A0163FDB69ADBD4725B0A0163FDB6&FORM=VIRE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, dpberr said: One of the few things Trump has been right on from the start is the current condition of NATO and its European freeloaders. Those guys have been getting the discounted lunch for a long time. Most of those central European militaries would fall within a month if there were a conventional land war. It'd be the Fins and Norwegians skiing to the rescue in Paris. As an aside, considering Germany's military history, the country's rich history of technological innovation and the Western investment into that country post World War II, it is sad to see their military in such poor shape. They should be the alpha in that region. They ARE the alpha in that region. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 minute ago, DC Tom said: They ARE the alpha in that region. That seems pretty sad. Someone posted here recently about a NATO country whose equipment was not compatible with everyone else's. Any recollection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 minute ago, DC Tom said: They ARE the alpha in that region. By what measure? Their military issued a report last month that stated in 2017, there were no transport planes or submarines available for deployment and the condition of their planes, tanks and helicopters as "dramatically bad." I think it was a BBC article. Same article said they showed up to NATO training exercises with broomsticks instead of rifles due to supply and repair issues. I know they have significant issues with their small arms. Their HK G36s are complete garbage, as are their small unit MG4 and MG5 LMGs. I understand they may have land size and personnel advantages but they've got no equipment to fight with if they needed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Worth listening to: And he's got a point: (Let's hear again from all the Trump/Russia TDSers about how asking NATO to increase defense funding - against Russia - while economically punishing Russia by buying energy elsewhere, makes Trump pro-Putin.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, dpberr said: I understand they may have land size and personnel advantages but they've got no equipment to fight with if they needed to. And neither does anyone else in Central Europe. Maybe France...but c'mon, they're France. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: And neither does anyone else in Central Europe. Maybe France...but c'mon, they're France. Oh c'mon, their tanks are fully operational although they'll only go in reverse. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 27 minutes ago, dpberr said: By what measure? Their military issued a report last month that stated in 2017, there were no transport planes or submarines available for deployment and the condition of their planes, tanks and helicopters as "dramatically bad." I think it was a BBC article. Same article said they showed up to NATO training exercises with broomsticks instead of rifles due to supply and repair issues. I know they have significant issues with their small arms. Their HK G36s are complete garbage, as are their small unit MG4 and MG5 LMGs. I understand they may have land size and personnel advantages but they've got no equipment to fight with if they needed to. Despite being downgraded slightly due to progressive-led charge to lower physical requirements and standards for their army over the past decade, their army is still the best fighting force in Europe. Their Air Force and Navy are almost useless (for the reasons you and others stated) in comparison to their French and British (and Russian) counterparts, but their army is still top of the food chain in the EU from what I understand. More (was this article what you were referencing, Dpberr?) And here's Trump today with Merkel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Oh c'mon, their tanks are fully operational although they'll only go in reverse. More realistically: they're older designs than the Leopard 2A7, and the French have fewer of them, and they have a slight tendency to disable themselves because of the explosives embedded in the armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I wouldn’t mind disbanding NATO and bringing all Americans home for repositioning on our southern border. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Despite being downgraded slightly due to progressive-led charge to lower physical requirements and standards for their army over the past decade, their army is still the best fighting force in Europe. Their Air Force and Navy are almost useless (for the reasons you and others stated) in comparison to their French and British (and Russian) counterparts, but their army is still top of the food chain in the EU from what I understand. More (was this article what you were referencing, Dpberr?) And has been said before, most of those "non-operational" weapons would be operational if need be. For example: half the Tornado fleet is "non-operational" only because they have to flush the fuel tanks because the !@#$ed up their jet fuel blend...those planes would certainly fly in a crisis. The Bundeswehr has serious - almost comical - logistics problems, thanks to the Merkel government's mismanagement. But they're also being very conservative in what they label "operational." Their naval issues...those are more real. Their 125 frigate is turning in to a case study in how not to build a ship (the first unit had a 1.5 degree list when launched.) But Germany has never been a naval power. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevbeau Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Their naval issues...those are more real. Their 125 frigate is turning in to a case study in how not to build a ship (the first unit had a 1.5 degree list when launched.) But Germany has never been a naval power. You mean Johnny Horton was full of @#$% all those years? Edited July 11, 2018 by Kevbeau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kevbeau said: You mean Johnny Horton was full of @#$% all those years? Little known coincidence: Johnny Horton sang "Sink the Bismark." Johnnie Walker - Captain Frederic John Walker - commanded the antisubmarine group 2nd Support Group in the North Atlantic in World War 2, and was the most successful ASW commander of the war. His commander was Commander, Western Approaches - Max Horton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 13 minutes ago, DC Tom said: But Germany has never been a naval power. Never? They had a pretty serious fleet leading up to 1908 or so didn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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