Shaw66 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Illogical, perhaps, but to me it would be worse. I still struggle with trading up to draft TJ Graham when Russ Wilson was still on the board, and then not making a move for Kirk Cousins. So it's going to be hard for me to let go of if Allen busts but Rosen shines, or if TT looks great in Cleveland while Allen is deemed not ready and we don't have a servicable QB (if TT shines while AJ or Peterman are capable, I don't care). Me too. I was beyond excited when the Bills traded up in the third round, because I was sure they'd take Wilson. And I was convinced Cousins was the right move. I never ran the numbers, but I think they simply concluded that they couldn't afford to bet it all on Cousins, given their cap situation. Tyrod shines this year and the Bills are on SOME logical path at QB, I'm okay even if 2018 is somewhat ugly. I've convinced myself the defense is going to be very good this season, and I'm expecting the team to be .500 or better.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said: Why are you defending this guy STILL:? He only had one 300 yard passing game here, and for good reason... he can't sustain a passing offense. Scoring offense rank? Please... The Tyrod sycophants are still trying to defend this guy. I can't really speak for Happy Days, but I think his point is to provide factual information, and I see the situation is less "syncophants" "defending" Taylor, as folks who react to exaggerated takes. The point is, TT DID generate offense for us, and a reasonable amount - just not the way many traditional passing QB do it (run + pass vs pass only) You might note that Days says things that aren't particularly "syncophant" like and don't really look like defending Taylor, such as "I'm sure that's a lower % than most NFL QBs" But then, I've attempted the same sort of "inject facts" intermezzo myself so perhaps I'm also defined as a "Tyrod syncophant" to you. Perhaps your definition of "syncophant" is "anyone who says anything remotely positive or not entirely negative about Tyrod" 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Me too. I was beyond excited when the Bills traded up in the third round, because I was sure they'd take Wilson. And I was convinced Cousins was the right move. I never ran the numbers, but I think they simply concluded that they couldn't afford to bet it all on Cousins, given their cap situation. Tyrod shines this year and the Bills are on SOME logical path at QB, I'm okay even if 2018 is somewhat ugly. I've convinced myself the defense is going to be very good this season, and I'm expecting the team to be .500 or better. I think the Bills did intend to make a FA play for Cousins and that waswhy they made all the off-season "free up 2019 cap" moves. (One can easily give a guy a big contract that isn't such a huge cap hit in the first year, by putting most of his first year into a signing bonus amortized over 4-5 years.) I think Cousins wanted a landing spot where he felt he could shine immediately, and he ruled Buffalo out PDQ. He wanted to have faith in the OC, the OL, and the WR corps. As soon as Wood got the "mandatory retirement" news, we became 0 for 3 in Cousins book. Daboll's record as an NFL OC doesn't inspire confidence, and we lack a top-10 WR. But that's not what I meant actually - I was referencing the 2012 draft. When they traded up and took TJ Graham, I was all "whoa, cool, they plan to trade up again in the 4th and draft Cousins!" Of course, I was shocked like everyone else when the Redskins doubled-down on QB in that draft, so maybe our FO was caught by surprise. Buddy said a lot of things afterwards about if you want a QB you have to over-draft them, which made me think they believed they could stand pat and take either Cousins or Wilson in the 4th and were taken aback when they couldn't.
Teddy KGB Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: TT DID generate offense for us, and a reasonable amount - just not the way many traditional passing QB do it (run + pass vs pass only) I don’t think this applies to the 2018 season The signature TT no show reared it’s head one too many times. Edited July 9, 2018 by Teddy KGB
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: I don’t think this applies to the 2018 season You're correct. Was it my clever use of the past tense "did" that clued you in? 2
Shaw66 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think the Bills did intend to make a FA play for Cousins and that was in part why they made all the off-season "free up 2019 cap" moves. (One can easily give a guy a big contract that isn't such a huge cap hit in the first year, by putting most of his first year into a signing bonus amortized over 4 years.) I think Cousins and his team ruled Buffalo out PDQ, and I don't blame him; I think he wanted to go somewhere where he had faith in the OC, the OL, and the WR corps. As soon as Wood got the "mandatory retirement" news, we became 0 for 3 in Cousins book. Daboll's record as an NFL OC doesn't inspire confidence, and we lack a top-10 WR. But that's not what I meant actually - I was referencing the 2012 draft. When they traded up and took TJ Graham, I was all "whoa, cool, they plan to trade up again in the 4th and draft Cousins!" Of course, I was shocked like everyone else when the Redskins doubled-down on QB in that draft, so maybe our FO was caught by surprise. Buddy said a lot of things afterwards about if you want a QB you have to over-draft them, which made me think they believed they could stand pat and take either Cousins or Wilson in the 4th and were taken aback when they couldn't. Ohhh. I wasn't at all a Cousins fan in the draft. That's an interesting take. Maybe you're right about Cousins in free agency. I have a different take. I think Cousins is all about system, and I was guessing that therefore McDermott was high on his list. I guessed that Cousins didn't care so much about any of the short-term issues - he wasn't in win-now mode. I think he wanted the right place for him and his family, right including a serious shot at long-term success. I think the Bills took themselves out of the auction. Beane is very clear that he believes that the opportunities come to you, and you shouldn't make moves that put you in a hole because you believe there's some great opportunity out there. So, for example, he was clear that he was willing to make moves in the draft this year, but he was NOT willing to give up 2019 picks to make a move. That is, even if there was a guy he wanted, he wouldn't mortgage the future to get him. And he's also been clear that he believes the draft is where you can good talent cheap. (I think he and the whole league learned an important lesson when they saw the success the Seahawks had accumulating a lot of low-priced talent in the draft.) I put all that together, and I think Beane decided he wasn't going to be a player for Cousins. He didn't want to put himself in a much deeper cap hole than he already was in, and he had confidence that good things would happen in the draft. Probably when he decided to pass on Cousins, he also decided to trade Taylor, because he'd long since decided Taylor wasn't their guy, and trading him then would position Beane even better in the draft. 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You're correct. Was it my clever use of the past tends "did" that clued you in? Your clever use of the past tense was clear. Your clever use the past "tends," on the other hand, was just a bit befuddling!
JohnC Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Ohhh. I wasn't at all a Cousins fan in the draft. That's an interesting take. Maybe you're right about Cousins in free agency. I have a different take. I think Cousins is all about system, and I was guessing that therefore McDermott was high on his list. I guessed that Cousins didn't care so much about any of the short-term issues - he wasn't in win-now mode. I think he wanted the right place for him and his family, right including a serious shot at long-term success. I think the Bills took themselves out of the auction. Beane is very clear that he believes that the opportunities come to you, and you shouldn't make moves that put you in a hole because you believe there's some great opportunity out there. So, for example, he was clear that he was willing to make moves in the draft this year, but he was NOT willing to give up 2019 picks to make a move. That is, even if there was a guy he wanted, he wouldn't mortgage the future to get him. And he's also been clear that he believes the draft is where you can good talent cheap. (I think he and the whole league learned an important lesson when they saw the success the Seahawks had accumulating a lot of low-priced talent in the draft.) I put all that together, and I think Beane decided he wasn't going to be a player for Cousins. He didn't want to put himself in a much deeper cap hole than he already was in, and he had confidence that good things would happen in the draft. Probably when he decided to pass on Cousins, he also decided to trade Taylor, because he'd long since decided Taylor wasn't their guy, and trading him then would position Beane even better in the draft. I live in the DC/Md area. Based on the never ending coverage of the Cousins saga relating to his future destination it was very obvious that Cousins had little interest in going to Buffalo. That is not to say that Buffalo didn't have a serious interest in him. The reality was that the free agent qb had nearly zilch interest in Buffalo. And the Bills very early on recognized that also. . I agree with you that early on in their tenure both Beane and McDermott came to the conclusion that Taylor was not the answer at qb. Whaley came to that decision the previous year but at the time he lost his authority to McDermott who wasn't ready to make a final determination on the qb issue at the time. The only issue for them was how best to parlay their asset. Getting a third round pick from Cleveland for a qb that they didn't want worked out unexpectedly well for us while also addressing a short term need for Cleveland. As you seem to allude to McBeane made a decision to accumulate draft picks and use those added assets to move up in the draft to get their future franchise qb. That's exactly what they did. This regime mapped out a strategy on addressing the qb issue. When all was said and done they terrifically executed their plan. On this issue they were tactically and strategically deft. Kudos to them. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 53 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Ohhh. I wasn't at all a Cousins fan in the draft. That's an interesting take. Mind you, at the time I was not really studying college QB at all. I just wanted the Bills to take a shot and draft a QB in one of the 1st 4 rounds and not put all their eggs in the Fitzpatrick basket. Quote Maybe you're right about Cousins in free agency. I have a different take. I think Cousins is all about system, and I was guessing that therefore McDermott was high on his list. I guessed that Cousins didn't care so much about any of the short-term issues - he wasn't in win-now mode. I think he wanted the right place for him and his family, right including a serious shot at long-term success. The reports I've read on Cousins is that he's obsessive about doing research, and "he does research on his research". One person described him as having a binder on each potential team including in-depth breakdown on their OLs (including the backups and college scouting) and WRs (ditto), extensive notes on their offensive system and offensive coaching tendencies, resume's of all their assistants etc etc. I can't find that link right now, I'll loop back and insert it if I find it. I don't think that's describing a guy who is "all about system" and doesn't care about short-term issues. I think it is describing a guy whose idea of "right place for him" includes "at least some of the right pieces in place on offense". I could be wrong, and I'm sure every team in the market for a QB this off season is all "we took ourselves out". And both could be true - FA have been known to change their mind about what "right place" means when the stack of money gets too high to ignore, and the Bills could have been "no, we have our price and we're not going to stack up more $$ to overcome our perceived shortcomings", which would quickly lead to mutual non-interest. 1
Shaw66 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Hapless - Good info about what Cousins was thinking. Thanks. 1
LABILLBACKER Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 ....he always looks amazing until the 4th qtr....."coffee is for closers"....
HappyDays Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I can't really speak for Happy Days, but I think his point is to provide factual information, and I see the situation is less "syncophants" "defending" Taylor, as folks who react to exaggerated takes. The point is, TT DID generate offense for us, and a reasonable amount - just not the way many traditional passing QB do it (run + pass vs pass only Exactly. I guess providing data is now considered being a sycophant. I was ready to move on from Tyrod, his time here was over. But everyone has convinced themselves our offense was awful the whole time he was here. That very clearly was not the case. It's entirely possible he plays well enough this year that Mayfield doesn't start a single game. It's also possible he continues his downward trend and has the worst season of his career. I'm also not sure why people are saying Tyrod always looked great in the offseason. My memory is that his offseasons were pretty average at best. We should prepare for the possibility that Tyrod outplays whoever our starter is this year. Even if that happens that doesn't mean we made the wrong move trading him away and drafting Josh Allen. I'm not here to root for the Bills to look stupid, but I'm also not going to ignore the reality that Tyrod has arguably the best supporting cast he's ever had and will be in an offense designed for his skill set. If that makes me a sycophant so be it. 1
JohnC Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Mind you, at the time I was not really studying college QB at all. I just wanted the Bills to take a shot and draft a QB in one of the 1st 4 rounds and not put all their eggs in the Fitzpatrick basket. The reports I've read on Cousins is that he's obsessive about doing research, and "he does research on his research". One person described him as having a binder on each potential team including in-depth breakdown on their OLs (including the backups and college scouting) and WRs (ditto), extensive notes on their offensive system and offensive coaching tendencies, resume's of all their assistants etc etc. I can't find that link right now, I'll loop back and insert it if I find it. I don't think that's describing a guy who is "all about system" and doesn't care about short-term issues. I think it is describing a guy whose idea of "right place for him" includes "at least some of the right pieces in place on offense". I could be wrong, and I'm sure every team in the market for a QB this off season is all "we took ourselves out". And both could be true - FA have been known to change their mind about what "right place" means when the stack of money gets too high to ignore, and the Bills could have been "no, we have our price and we're not going to stack up more $$ to overcome our perceived shortcomings", which would quickly lead to mutual non-interest. This is just one link addressing his obsessive behavior when preparing. As a player and person he is all in. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/11/29/kirk-cousins-washington-redskins-quarterback
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, JohnC said: This is just one link addressing his obsessive behavior when preparing. As a player and person he is all in. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/11/29/kirk-cousins-washington-redskins-quarterback Great find, JohnC, Thanks! Oh. My. God. All I can say is if this guy finds playoff success with Minn., he 100% deserves it. LOL at "Cousins is football’s equivalent of food that tastes better than it looks—human hummus, as it were." "The professional agitator Colin Cowherd recently employed his own food analogy, comparing the Skins’ QB to oatmeal. And what of it? Oatmeal may be bland and boring and downright unquarterbacklike. But oatmeal is steady. Oatmeal can be depended on. Oatmeal has gotten teams to Super Bowls."
ngbills Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 3 hours ago, HappyDays said: Exactly. I guess providing data is now considered being a sycophant. I was ready to move on from Tyrod, his time here was over. But everyone has convinced themselves our offense was awful the whole time he was here. That very clearly was not the case. It's entirely possible he plays well enough this year that Mayfield doesn't start a single game. It's also possible he continues his downward trend and has the worst season of his career. I'm also not sure why people are saying Tyrod always looked great in the offseason. My memory is that his offseasons were pretty average at best. We should prepare for the possibility that Tyrod outplays whoever our starter is this year. Even if that happens that doesn't mean we made the wrong move trading him away and drafting Josh Allen. I'm not here to root for the Bills to look stupid, but I'm also not going to ignore the reality that Tyrod has arguably the best supporting cast he's ever had and will be in an offense designed for his skill set. If that makes me a sycophant so be it. It is selective memory. Tyrod did some good things and some bad things. I think he is a good QB for a team that has a lack of weapons or OL because he can improvise. But a team being built for a more traditional passing attack there are better options if you can find them. But that should not get turned into he is awful and everyone knows it. He has obvious value as the Bills gave him a decent contract and Browns wound up trading some decent value for him. The Browns players and former Bills players still say he was a good player. But us message board folks are the real experts. We can alter the facts to create new realities.
fansince88 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 9 hours ago, Fadingpain said: You state this as if to suggest Allen is a known commodity of high quality. He isn't, and may well prove to be worse than Tyrod. I say this to state this. It was time to nove on from Tyrod and they got paid for him and got a top rated draft pick. While we dont know what we have in Josh we know what we had in Tyrod. Im willing to take a chance. 10 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: Nah, it got us Edmunds. True.
3rdand12 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 11 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: I want to hear what Landry has to say when he has 4 catches for 47 yard after week 3 and they are 0-3. how about if Landry has 4 catches for 47 yards after week 3 two for TD and they are 2-1 ?
JohnC Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Great find, JohnC, Thanks! Oh. My. God. All I can say is if this guy finds playoff success with Minn., he 100% deserves it. LOL at "Cousins is football’s equivalent of food that tastes better than it looks—human hummus, as it were." "The professional agitator Colin Cowherd recently employed his own food analogy, comparing the Skins’ QB to oatmeal. And what of it? Oatmeal may be bland and boring and downright unquarterbacklike. But oatmeal is steady. Oatmeal can be depended on. Oatmeal has gotten teams to Super Bowls." When Cousins was leaving Michigan State to begin his pro career he personally wrote a thank you note to all of the athletic staff. Most of the recipients were the support staff that included the secretaries and grunts in the department. He's very religious and doesn't just talk about it but lives it. He can come off a bit sanctimonious but I'll always give the benefit of the doubt to those who practice what they preach. I always believed that Buddy Nix was going to draft either Cousins or Wilson in that draft year but he waited too long. My inclination was that the country GM was eyeing Cousins and was going to select him with his next round pick. Shanahan surprised Buddy by taking Cousins in the fourth round after he already drafted RG III in a blockbuster deal in the first round. Shanahan never wanted to give up assets to draft RG III. It was the owner who ordered the selection. It was no secret in Washington that Shanahan favored Cousins over Griffin. That certainly was a factor why Griffin was so reluctant to let Cousins come in to replace him even when he was hurt. Shanahan's son coached the qbs and was involved with the offense. He loved Cousins and was openly contemptuous of RG III. Another reason why Griffin was not trustful of the coaching staff. I strongly believe that if Cousins would have been drafted by Buffalo it would have dramatically altered the direction of this franchise. Not so much because Cousins is great but because it would have solidified the qb position and given us the opportunity to build around a legitimate franchise qb. I also believe that with Cousins Marrone would have stayed and Rex would not have had an opportunity to eviscerate the team. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaafootball/michigan-states-cousins-finds-right-delivery-on-and-off-field.html 1
3rdand12 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think the Bills did intend to make a FA play for Cousins and that waswhy they made all the off-season "free up 2019 cap" moves. (One can easily give a guy a big contract that isn't such a huge cap hit in the first year, by putting most of his first year into a signing bonus amortized over 4-5 years.) I think Cousins wanted a landing spot where he felt he could shine immediately, and he ruled Buffalo out PDQ. He wanted to have faith in the OC, the OL, and the WR corps. As soon as Wood got the "mandatory retirement" news, we became 0 for 3 in Cousins book. Daboll's record as an NFL OC doesn't inspire confidence, and we lack a top-10 WR. But that's not what I meant actually - I was referencing the 2012 draft. When they traded up and took TJ Graham, I was all "whoa, cool, they plan to trade up again in the 4th and draft Cousins!" Of course, I was shocked like everyone else when the Redskins doubled-down on QB in that draft, so maybe our FO was caught by surprise. Buddy said a lot of things afterwards about if you want a QB you have to over-draft them, which made me think they believed they could stand pat and take either Cousins or Wilson in the 4th and were taken aback when they couldn't. I have to agree about being attractive to Cousin's. I had prying away Foles on my mind as well. as far as FA was to play out. Bills played the hand dealt fairly well imo . sorry i am bit off topic 6 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Ohhh. I wasn't at all a Cousins fan in the draft. That's an interesting take. Maybe you're right about Cousins in free agency. I have a different take. I think Cousins is all about system, and I was guessing that therefore McDermott was high on his list. I guessed that Cousins didn't care so much about any of the short-term issues - he wasn't in win-now mode. I think he wanted the right place for him and his family, right including a serious shot at long-term success. I think the Bills took themselves out of the auction. Beane is very clear that he believes that the opportunities come to you, and you shouldn't make moves that put you in a hole because you believe there's some great opportunity out there. So, for example, he was clear that he was willing to make moves in the draft this year, but he was NOT willing to give up 2019 picks to make a move. That is, even if there was a guy he wanted, he wouldn't mortgage the future to get him. And he's also been clear that he believes the draft is where you can good talent cheap. (I think he and the whole league learned an important lesson when they saw the success the Seahawks had accumulating a lot of low-priced talent in the draft.) I put all that together, and I think Beane decided he wasn't going to be a player for Cousins. He didn't want to put himself in a much deeper cap hole than he already was in, and he had confidence that good things would happen in the draft. Probably when he decided to pass on Cousins, he also decided to trade Taylor, because he'd long since decided Taylor wasn't their guy, and trading him then would position Beane even better in the draft. Your clever use of the past tense was clear. Your clever use the past "tends," on the other hand, was just a bit befuddling! a very nice opinion that differs , but still makes good use of what if logic ! Bolded cracked me up Thanks both and All for the good roundabout here ☺️
3rdand12 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 4 hours ago, HappyDays said: Exactly. I guess providing data is now considered being a sycophant. I was ready to move on from Tyrod, his time here was over. But everyone has convinced themselves our offense was awful the whole time he was here. That very clearly was not the case. It's entirely possible he plays well enough this year that Mayfield doesn't start a single game. It's also possible he continues his downward trend and has the worst season of his career. I'm also not sure why people are saying Tyrod always looked great in the offseason. My memory is that his offseasons were pretty average at best. We should prepare for the possibility that Tyrod outplays whoever our starter is this year. Even if that happens that doesn't mean we made the wrong move trading him away and drafting Josh Allen. I'm not here to root for the Bills to look stupid, but I'm also not going to ignore the reality that Tyrod has arguably the best supporting cast he's ever had and will be in an offense designed for his skill set. If that makes me a sycophant so be it. well then. so be it, you Ole Sycophant you. whatever the hell that word means ^? you be YOU Happy Days !! that's the way we like ya
Saxum Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 3 hours ago, JohnC said: This is just one link addressing his obsessive behavior when preparing. As a player and person he is all in. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/11/29/kirk-cousins-washington-redskins-quarterback And shows why in Washington he felt disrespected: Because Kirk Cousins is Kirk Cousins, he desperately wanted an office. That is what he asked of the CENSORED, and that is what they gave him: a windowless nook with gray filing cabinets and ample storage space, tucked off the lobby at 21300 CENSORED Park Drive. You have a QB who wants an office for he treats the job as a full time job and you give him a windowless nook? If need be they should have remodeled locker room area to give him an office with one wall entirely a TV telling him "we consider you an executive since we pay you like one." I wonder what office he got from Minnesota in contract negotiations. And talk about process. Coach McD should have tried to talk him into being the first player-OC. The accountant-athlete spends hours each week inside this cubicle, which speaks to his—favorite-word alert—process, which megaphone-shouts to his singular obsession: not playing football, but getting ready for it. Former coach Mike Shanahan says he noticed that fixation immediately after the Redskins took Cousins in the fourth round of the 2012 NFL draft—exactly 100 picks after they used the No. 2 choice on QB Robert Griffin III. At the end of that summer’s training camp, with Griffin entrenched as the starter, Shanahan pulled Cousins aside. “With what you’ve shown me, you could have a Drew Brees-type career,” he told the backup. Cousins never forgot those words, an affirmation of his ethos. “Mike didn’t just show me that process matters,” Cousins says. “He showed me that my process works.”
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