BADOLBILZ Posted July 7, 2018 Posted July 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, mannc said: Badol, I'll give you credit, because all along, while the idiot fringe here was saying that Goodwin sucked at football, you've acknowledged that Goodwin has bona fide NFL talent and is not just another TJ Graham. That being said, there just isn't any evidence that he was mailing it in during his four years with the Bills. If Goodwin was mailing it in for the sake of long-jumping, then he's an idiot because even the top two or three long jumpers in the world make far less than a WR 3 in the NFL. It takes some players longer to develop than others, and of course a WR's performance can be greatly affected by the team around him, especially the QB. There is no reason not to believe that what we are seeing with Goodwin is just a guy getting better with more time in the league, and rising to the occasion when he gets a chance to play more in a different system. The NFL is a meat grinder for athletes. You don't play 3 full seasons in the NFL and then go compete in Olympic track and field. Those track athletes are like thoroughbred horses.....injuries that NFL players play thru on an every week basis would devastate the chances of a track athlete to compete at a high level. Goodwin knew this. The minute he got knicked up he called it a season. The man was absolutely determined to live out his Olympic dream. A fact he outright LIED about that during the draft process. Then he was posting video of himself doing hurdles on social media while on IR at midseason. ? And yeah......if he was only thinking about the doing the best thing for his family he wouldn't have been messing around with the Olympics. I said that all along too. He'd have been chasing a $10M+ per contract by building an NFL body and honing his talent into skills. It's not about being dumb though........he knew that his unguaranteed money amounted to basically league minimum and that it was highly unlikely the Bills would dump him if he stayed viable on his rookie deal. If they did he'd get picked up quickly for the same money. He had little to lose financially from playing his hand the way he did and the Bills were between a rock and hard place of their own design and basically had two choices.......cut him or put up with his hop dreams and hope that they got something out of him after the olympics. Pursuing his personal dream isn't congruent with the "selfless" perception people want to attach to him but it also wasn't his responsibility to shelve his dreams entirely so that he could have more money to spend on his family. He'd already made a significant amount of money and likely helped his family greatly to that point. He bet on himself........took his shot at his dream and still came away with enough of a contract to create generational wealth for his family. If he were a friend of mine I'd say good on him.........the NFL is a tough biz and he was one of the few who got over on the billionaire owners. But as a fan of a team he cheated out of an important draft pick and a whole lotta' production, IMO........well not a fan from that perspective.?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnC said: Goodwin was very open prior to the draft about his desire to participate in the Olympics. There was no secret about his love of track. It wasn't surprising that the pre-draft consideration about was whether he was mostly a track athlete who played football or a football player who also participated in track. From what I remember the consensus was that he was more of a track athlete whose elite speed talent could be used as a specialty on the football field. I do agree with you that in order to make himself more attractive as a draft prospect he misrepresented his desire to play football at the expense of a track career. That Olympic dream was a flame that was still burning very hot when he was drafted. I won't go so far as to say that he lied but I am comfortable in saying that he wasn't candid about what he wanted to do relative to his track interests. I do agree with you when he first entered the pros that his training that focused on track hindered his development on the football field. As you noted the training for each sport is very different and to an extent counterproductive. Without question his lack of durability was attributable to not fully dedicating himself to train for football. I think this is the most agreement I’ve ever had with you - scary! I hadn’t remembered his openness about wanting to continue his track career prior to the draft. He’d been once, in 2012, so he had the “participation trophy” down. If he was still planning to go, it should have been evident that he must have planned to “go big” I have the highest opinion of Goodwin as apparently a fine and admirable human being, and he seems to have become a good football player. But I do believe he “played” the Bills.
mannc Posted July 7, 2018 Posted July 7, 2018 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: The NFL is a meat grinder for athletes. You don't play 3 full seasons in the NFL and then go compete in Olympic track and field. Those track athletes are like thoroughbred horses.....injuries that NFL players play thru on an every week basis would devastate the chances of a track athlete to compete at a high level. Goodwin knew this. The minute he got knicked up he called it a season. The man was absolutely determined to live out his Olympic dream. A fact he outright LIED about that during the draft process. Then he was posting video of himself doing hurdles on social media while on IR at midseason. ? And yeah......if he was only thinking about the doing the best thing for his family he wouldn't have been messing around with the Olympics. I said that all along too. He'd have been chasing a $10M+ per contract by building an NFL body and honing his talent into skills. It's not about being dumb though........he knew that his unguaranteed money amounted to basically league minimum and that it was highly unlikely the Bills would dump him if he stayed viable on his rookie deal. If they did he'd get picked up quickly for the same money. He had little to lose financially from playing his hand the way he did and the Bills were between a rock and hard place of their own design and basically had two choices.......cut him or put up with his hop dreams and hope that they got something out of him after the olympics. Pursuing his personal dream isn't congruent with the "selfless" perception people want to attach to him but it also wasn't his responsibility to shelve his dreams entirely so that he could have more money to spend on his family. He'd already made a significant amount of money and likely helped his family greatly to that point. He bet on himself........took his shot at his dream and still came away with enough of a contract to create generational wealth for his family. If he were a friend of mine I'd say good on him.........the NFL is a tough biz and he was one of the few who got over on the billionaire owners. But as a fan of a team he cheated out of an important draft pick and a whole lotta' production, IMO........well not a fan from that perspective.? And yet, if they had retained him (which was entirely possible) Goodwin would be, at worst, the Bills’ WR 2 this year, adding a home run threat they currently lack. Not exactly a wasted draft pick...
JohnC Posted July 7, 2018 Posted July 7, 2018 10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think this is the most agreement I’ve ever had with you - scary! I hadn’t remembered his openness about wanting to continue his track career prior to the draft. He’d been once, in 2012, so he had the “participation trophy” down. If he was still planning to go, it should have been evident that he must have planned to “go big” I have the highest opinion of Goodwin as apparently a fine and admirable human being, and he seems to have become a good football player. But I do believe he “played” the Bills. There is another aspect to the drafting of Goodwin that hasn't been mentioned. In college he was a two sport participant, track and football. In college during the spring he was involved with the track team while the football players were practicing in the spring session and totally consumed with training for football. So it is not surprising from a football standpoint he was behind where he could have been if he only concentrated on football. So it shouldn't be surprising that his development as a receiver in the pros was lagging because of that lack of full commitment in college. I understand why Goodwin was let go. I have no problem with that decision. On the other hand I'm happy that he is doing well and turning out to be a good player. What happened here with Goodwin happens all the time in this league. Players struggle in one setting and thrive in other settings. Players don't always get a full opportunity in one setting but then move on and get a better opportunity to exhibit their talents. Poyer and Hyde certainly worked out well for us after they left their respective teams. As a Bills fan the frustration with the Goodwin scenario is that the team currently has a need for a speed receiver. This cycle of filling a hole and then creating a hole can be exasperating. But the reality is that the churning of talent is an inescapable part of the landscape. You have no alternative other than to just have to deal with it as best you can. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Posted July 7, 2018 22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: The NFL is a meat grinder for athletes. You don't play 3 full seasons in the NFL and then go compete in Olympic track and field. Those track athletes are like thoroughbred horses.....injuries that NFL players play thru on an every week basis would devastate the chances of a track athlete to compete at a high level. Goodwin knew this. The minute he got knicked up he called it a season. The man was absolutely determined to live out his Olympic dream. A fact he outright LIED about that during the draft process. Then he was posting video of himself doing hurdles on social media while on IR at midseason. ? I'd forgotten about that entirely. Yeah, for those looking for evidence he shirked on the Bills to pursue his track dreams - how 'bout them hurdles clips? This was in 2015 when he had a rib injury that sidelined him for 4 games, played two games, was out for a game and then went on IR. Meanwhile we were "sufferin' succotash" at WR. Nice analysis, Badol. 11 hours ago, JohnC said: There is another aspect to the drafting of Goodwin that hasn't been mentioned. In college he was a two sport participant, track and football. In college during the spring he was involved with the track team while the football players were practicing in the spring session and totally consumed with training for football. So it is not surprising from a football standpoint he was behind where he could have been if he only concentrated on football. So it shouldn't be surprising that his development as a receiver in the pros was lagging because of that lack of full commitment in college. Was mentioned actually, in a post I made up-thread. You even responded to it!
RocCityRoller Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 IMO this much conversation means Marquise Goodwin is a good football player. He just so happens to also be a world class athlete. The pick by Whaley was a good risk to take. He didn't pan out here for various reasons. After the last Olympics it seems MG refocused on football and found a QB/Coach and system that worked for him. I am happy for him and his family. MG is one of the good guys, and wore his first NFL helmet as a Buffalo Bill. I hope he continues his success.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, RocCityRoller said: IMO this much conversation means Marquise Goodwin is a good football player. He just so happens to also be a world class athlete. The pick by Whaley was a good risk to take. He didn't pan out here for various reasons. After the last Olympics it seems MG refocused on football and found a QB/Coach and system that worked for him. I am happy for him and his family. MG is one of the good guys, and wore his first NFL helmet as a Buffalo Bill. I hope he continues his success. ....NICELY done my friend..........how the eff you trash a "family first" kid is beyond me.......... Edited July 8, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 43 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ....NICELY done my friend..........how the eff you trash a "family first" kid is beyond me.......... I don't think anyone is trashing Goodwin as a man at all. He seems to be an admirable human being. I think everyone who has commented has acknowledged that. He's also 27 years old - not such a kid at this point. But Football is a business, and as a businessman, it's my opinion that he rooked the Bills...his personal 5 year plan was not focused on prioritizing football for the first 3 years of his contract, through the summer of 2016. Once he got to his contract year, he became willing to play dinged and stay active in order to earn a moderate "prove it" deal, which he did. I wish him success with the 49ers, and congratulate him on being a good human being, but that doesn't change how he "handled his business" here.
Sky Diver Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 Caveat emptor. If the Bills were concerned about his off-field activities, they shouldn’t have drafted him, or if they questioned his commitment to football, they should have given him an ultimatum; drop track or we are going to release you. 2
BADOLBILZ Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think anyone is trashing Goodwin as a man at all. He seems to be an admirable human being. I think everyone who has commented has acknowledged that. He's also 27 years old - not such a kid at this point. But Football is a business, and as a businessman, it's my opinion that he rooked the Bills...his personal 5 year plan was not focused on prioritizing football for the first 3 years of his contract, through the summer of 2016. Once he got to his contract year, he became willing to play dinged and stay active in order to earn a moderate "prove it" deal, which he did. I wish him success with the 49ers, and congratulate him on being a good human being, but that doesn't change how he "handled his business" here. Only player I have ever heard actually vocalize his football career objective as being "getting a second contract". As I have said.........what would people think if Josh Allen did this? What if he decided to focus on his beloved golf game for 4 years at the Bills expense? 31 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: Caveat emptor. If the Bills were concerned about his off-field activities, they shouldn’t have drafted him, or if they questioned his commitment to football, they should have given him an ultimatum; drop track or we are going to release you. It's always caveat emptor with EVERY player you draft. He lied about his commitment to football and the Bills took the bait. Because of where he was selected the Bills had no leverage to force him to commit to football. Once he received his signing bonus his 3rd round pick annual salary was dirt cheap. So the only way to get him to quit track was to cut him and let him take his talent elsewhere. The only team that would have had the leverage to force him to quit track was his NEXT team.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think anyone is trashing Goodwin as a man at all. He seems to be an admirable human being. I think everyone who has commented has acknowledged that. He's also 27 years old - not such a kid at this point. But Football is a business, and as a businessman, it's my opinion that he rooked the Bills...his personal 5 year plan was not focused on prioritizing football for the first 3 years of his contract, through the summer of 2016. Once he got to his contract year, he became willing to play dinged and stay active in order to earn a moderate "prove it" deal, which he did. I wish him succ5ess with the 49ers, and congratulate him on being a good human being, but that doesn't change how he "handled his business" here. ...yup...nicely done Hap....a real good guy..............
Sky Diver Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) When he hurt his ribs, a much larger player landed hard on top of him. His injury had nothing do with track. I’m not convinced that his football performance had anything to with track, but if it did, the Bills had options. Edited July 8, 2018 by Sky Diver
BADOLBILZ Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 49 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: When he hurt his ribs, a much larger player landed hard on top of him. His injury had nothing do with track. I’m not convinced that his football performance had anything to with track, but if it did, the Bills had options. Wow. Nobody said he hurt his ribs training for track. Try to keep up.
Sky Diver Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Wow. Nobody said he hurt his ribs training for track. Try to keep up. Not training exclusively for football has nothing to do with freak injuries.
K-9 Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: Not training exclusively for football has nothing to do with freak injuries. Also, the differences in the training and nutritional regimens for that of long jumpers and sprinters vs. those for WRs are virtually non-existent. From that standpoint alone, Goodwin gave up nothing in terms of preparedness for the NFL which is why the Bills were totally on board in support of his Olympic pursuit. The idea that they weren't is revisionist. The problem was he wasn't learning to be a better wide receiver in the process of preparing for the Olympics and his self-preservation mode during football season limited his desire to get back on the field, which was an issue.
Sky Diver Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 The Bills allowed it. It’s on them. “I know it is a risk,” Goodwin says. “I want a second contract. I’d love it to be in Buffalo. I love football. But I know how important it is to live your life like you want to. I know some organizations wouldn’t allow that, but Rex [Ryan] does and I’m so appreciative of that.”
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, K-9 said: Also, the differences in the training and nutritional regimens for that of long jumpers and sprinters vs. those for WRs are virtually non-existent. From that standpoint alone, Goodwin gave up nothing in terms of preparedness for the NFL which is why the Bills were totally on board in support of his Olympic pursuit. The idea that they weren't is revisionist. The problem was he wasn't learning to be a better wide receiver in the process of preparing for the Olympics and his self-preservation mode during football season limited his desire to get back on the field, which was an issue. I'd like to know the basis for this statement. Do you train either? Both? Have you trained as either at an elite level (DI college or national)? I have not, but I call "shenanigans". I think for a WR having trouble getting off the line, he needs a lot of drills working on his ability to cut and footwork - pickup basketball wouldn't be a mistake. A lot of training of stabilizer muscles, working on being able to cut. A lot of work with the juggs machine and practice running routes. Maybe the strength training for each might not be too dis-similar, but every other aspect of training - not so much.
keepthefaith Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/6/2018 at 12:30 AM, PetermanThrew5Picks said: Question, did Marquise Goodwin break out a career season because he left that Buffalo offense? Or because he took football in the offseason seriously, being on a new team and all.. I mean just watching him briefly at the 9ers he looked like he added 30 pounds of muscle. Looked like a WR monster. Good chance he added muscle once he was done long jumping. Track and field athletes don't train with the same goals as football players.
K-9 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd like to know the basis for this statement. Do you train either? Both? Have you trained as either at an elite level (DI college or national)? I have not, but I call "shenanigans". I think for a WR having trouble getting off the line, he needs a lot of drills working on his ability to cut and footwork - pickup basketball wouldn't be a mistake. A lot of training of stabilizer muscles, working on being able to cut. A lot of work with the juggs machine and practice running routes. Maybe the strength training for each might not be too dis-similar, but every other aspect of training - not so much. The basis for the statement Is a familiarity with the exercise physiology and nutrition required for training at elite levels. Of course there are “specific” areas of training for both disciplines. I’m speaking more in general terms of the nutrition and strength training required for both. The Bills trainers were ok with it because the nutrional requirements and strength training required for his long jumping wouldn’t cause him to lose muscle mass and the intensive sprint training is similar to that of a WR as it is. I alluded to the fact he ignored the specialized focus required for his development as a WR, so I agree with you on that score.
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