Beane's Counterbalance to Missing on Josh Allen: Great Trades, Drafting, and Free Agent Pickups.

[BurpleBull]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Regardless of our opinions here.
 

You have done an admirable job of presenting and defending your points !

 and maintaining the thread as it should be.

 very good form and kudos to you Burple

 well done  : )

 

Thanks man.

[GreggTX]

The Bills roster is pretty well set all around? What? LOL.

[MAJBobby]

My question is IF Allen Busts (all analytic data points there) does it FINALLY get Bills fully on board in the world of Analytic Scouting?

[Nihilarian]

19 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

 

The Bills returning O-linemen played admirably against the Jaguars D-line in the playoffs, where the intensity is ratcheted up another level. 

 

They all passed the test and against an O-line that comprised of all Pro-Bowlers and one former.

 

It was both Wood and Incognito whose struggles really stood out on certain plays.

 

But all and all the Bills O-line held its own collectively.

 

The Bills put together the longest single drive versus the Jags all season in that game, so it's not as though the Jags defense kicked the Bills around the field all game long.

 

The Bills only scored 3 because Tyrod Taylor missed what should have been a TD toss to O'Leary in the end zone and because of a questionable play call at the goal line.

 

Neither interception was due to pressure. Taylor's was due to a tipped pass and Peterman's from not driving into his throw and putting much behind his pass.

 

The tackle that knocked Taylor out of game was Dante Fowler's only tackle of the game, and it was a dirty play if you ask me.

 

Almost every bad play that stood out protection-wise, came at the hands of Eric Wood, meanwhile Jordan Mills did a good job at neutralizing Yannick Ngakoue for a good portion of the game.

I'm happy for you that you were content with the play of the line against the Jags defense in that playoff game. They passed the test for you because the Jags defense didn't annihilate them? Perhaps their defensive game plan was to keep that running QB contained so he didn't make big plays with his legs. Rather than go for sacks and get burned by a big run. Perhaps they wanted to also contain McCoy so he didn't kill them with his legs.

 

The Buffalo Bills lost that game 10-3 which is a sad thing that they couldn't score more than 3 points. In my view, a better O line would have greatly helped score more points.

 

They passed nothing for me as I would have liked to see McCoy score a few times on the ground and Taylor throw a few TDs. The 49ers scored 44 pts on them in week 16 and Pittsburg rolled up 545 yards of offense on them with Big Ben throwing 5 TD passes. 

 

The Jags did field a solid defense but they went 10-6, were swept by Tennessee, also lost to the Jets, the Rams, the Cards, and 49ers. 

 

I want to see a Bills line that can dominate the competition like they did in the 60's AFL championship years, 90's super bowl years. The current roster isn't even close at this point.

[Nihilarian]

23 hours ago, SoTier said:

Excellent post.    Too many Bills fans refuse to accept the fact that OL play is the key to having a successful offense.  Unfortunately, they're going to learn a hard lesson this coming season because the Bills OL is simply not good enough, which means that the Bills offense is going to pile up three-and-out, turn overs, very few TDs, and QB injuries.

1

Thanks.  

 

The line is my biggest concern so far as I don't see McCarron, Peterman lasting past that week 6 Texan's game and they might not even make it that far. Hopefully, by then Beane will work a trade to bring in much-needed help. The very last thing I want to see is that rookie QB being thrown to the wolves like a lamb to the slaughter. 

 

 

 

 

[BurpleBull]

On 7/24/2018 at 5:03 PM, Nihilarian said:

I'm happy for you that you were content with the play of the line against the Jags defense in that playoff game. They passed the test for you because the Jags defense didn't annihilate them? Perhaps their defensive game plan was to keep that running QB contained so he didn't make big plays with his legs. Rather than go for sacks and get burned by a big run. Perhaps they wanted to also contain McCoy so he didn't kill them with his legs.

 

The Buffalo Bills lost that game 10-3 which is a sad thing that they couldn't score more than 3 points. In my view, a better O line would have greatly helped score more points.

 

They passed nothing for me as I would have liked to see McCoy score a few times on the ground and Taylor throw a few TDs. The 49ers scored 44 pts on them in week 16 and Pittsburg rolled up 545 yards of offense on them with Big Ben throwing 5 TD passes. 

 

The Jags did field a solid defense but they went 10-6, were swept by Tennessee, also lost to the Jets, the Rams, the Cards, and 49ers. 

 

I want to see a Bills line that can dominate the competition like they did in the 60's AFL championship years, 90's super bowl years. The current roster isn't even close at this point.

 

They passed nothing to you, because like many in here, you have already set your mind to thinking poorly of the unit.

 

You started off giving the Jags D-line props for having sacked Taylor a whopping two times with their star-studded lineup, then after I point out how certain mishaps that you were crediting their line for creating wasn't directly due to a dominating Jags defensive line, you search for and find a new way to discredit the Bills O-line performance.

 

It's now masterful defensive gameplanning that was responsible for their All-Pro lineup only mustering two sacks, nothing that Jordan Mills, Vlad Ducasse, or Dion Dawkins had anything to do with.

 

True enough the Jags set out to stop the bootleg, but you're fooling yourself if you think a unit that had 50+ sacks during the reg. season, sat back as spies the majority of the game to ensure Taylor never broke the pocket. 

 

The play of the guys entering a new season had everything to do with slowing their pass rush.

 

You are just unwilling to give the team you root for any credit for it.

 

The Bills didn't put up more points largely because of Taylor's safe style of Qb'ing and missing big throws when opportunity presented itself.

[Nihilarian]

3 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

 

They passed nothing to you because like many in here, you have already set your mind to thinking poorly of the unit. (they passed nothing to me because THEY LOST THE GAME and ONLY SCORED THREE POINTS on offense!)

 

You started off giving the Jags D-line props (I never gave the Jags D line props as All I did was point out the facts)for having sacked Taylor a whopping two times with their star-studded lineup, then after I point out how certain mishaps that you were crediting their line for creating wasn't directly due to a dominating Jags defensive line, you search for and find a new way to discredit the Bills O-line performance. (It's not a new way, I just never mentioned it previously. Just as I never mentioned that Eric Wood had suffered stingers all season for the first time in his career. 

 

It's now masterful defensive game planning that was responsible for their All-Pro lineup only mustering two sacks, nothing that Jordan Mills, Vlad Ducasse, or Dion Dawkins had anything to do with.

 

True enough the Jags set out to stop the bootleg, but you're fooling yourself if you think a unit that had 50+ sacks during the reg. season, sat back as spies the majority of the game to ensure Taylor never broke the pocket. (That Jags defense still got a ton of pressure on Taylor, but alas, he is a very mobile, running QB that can escape a pass rush.)

 

The play of the guys entering a new season had everything to do with slowing their pass rush. 

 

You are just unwilling to give the team you root for any credit for it. (the O line actually played better than I thought they would, just not as well as I had hoped.)

 

The Bills didn't put up more points largely because of Taylor's safe style of Qb'ing and missing big throws when an opportunity presented itself. (Actually, Tyrod out passed his counterpart Blake Bortles in passing yards wise as Bortles only went 12 of 23 for 87 yards, 1 TD)(McCoy didn't score either and that Jags defense was the reason for both. )

 

 Calais Campbell had a grade of 90.7 (PFF) and led all edge defenders with seven QB pressures. Campbell also dominated in the run game with a run defense grade of 89.7. The Jags defense pressured Tyrod Taylor all game on 38.3% of dropbacks which was the highest percentage in the playoffs. 

 

 

The 2018 Buffalo Bills will be without Tyrod Taylor as they traded away that elusive mobile QB and replaced him with a pair of pocket QB's in AJ McCarron, Nathan Peterman. I shudder to think of how that line will look this year with all pros Glenn, Woods and Incognito gone from the team and a roster of nobodies on the line attempting to protect those pocket QBs. 

 

I also want to mention that,

The 2013 Buffalo Bills were #1 in rushing attempts, #2 in rushing yards.

In 2014 they took several steps back into the 20s in rushing.

In 2015 they were #2 in rushing attempts, #1 in rushing yards, #1 in rushing TDs, #1 in yards per rushing attempt. 

In 2016 they were #2 in rushing attempts, #1 in rushing yards, #1 in rushing TDs, #1 in yards per rushing attempt.

 

In 2017 they were #4 in rushing attempts, #6 in rushing yards, #15 in rushing TDs, #14 in yards per rushing attempt. For the first part of the 2017 season, the run game wasn't anywhere near as good as the previous two seasons and in the last half of the season, it got much better. I suspect the line was getting used to Dawkins at LT and the line getting used to the new O line coach/run game coordinator in Juan Castillio. Those rushing TDs and yards per attempt never did come close to what they were in 2015, 2016.

 

You have made your points and I have made mine. Preseason games start on August 9th for Buffalo so we shall soon see if the current players on the roster are good enough. 15 days. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BurpleBull]

On 7/18/2018 at 7:26 AM, Nihilarian said:

The offensive line is an area where I think this FO feel surprisingly short in the draft and in free agency. Particularly when they just drafted a rookie QB and have a second year QB too.

I realize you can't fill every roster hole in one draft or offseason so I'm also hoping that this FO doesn't make the very same mistake that killed past regimes in the thinking that you can get by with later round picks for the offensive line. Buddy Nix and his lame idea that any tackle can play guard and any big body can play tackle.

 

It took Rex Ryan to see that the team needed upgrades at the offensive guard position so not only did he take a chance on Incognito when no other team would. That choice worked out well and the line would have been so much better had Ryan been able to sign undrafted FA La'el Collins who he wined and dined before he signed with Dallas. We all saw what a difference a pro bowl guard in Incognito can make to a team as he instantly helped make Woods and Glenn look so much better. 

 

BTW, Collins before the 2015 draft was graded as a possible top ten prospect, that is until it was announced he was to be questioned by the police about the shooting death of a woman he had a relationship with in the past. 

 

I'm still holding out hope that one day the Buffalo Bills with build a top offensive line like they had for their super bowl runs. Like they had for their 60's AFL championship wins. Like they basically had for every year they made the playoffs. Then again, I would really want lines like those 60 championship years in that every player was a pro bowler and even some were 1st team all pros. 

 

Stew Barber, Billy Shaw, Dave Behrman, Al Bemiller, Dick Hudson.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. DALLAS COWBOYS

PROJECTED STARTING LINEUP:

Left Tackle: Tyron Smith, 79.7 overall grade
Left Guard: Connor Williams, 85.7* (2017 college grade)
Center: Travis Frederick, 90.8
Right Guard: Zack Martin, 92.2
 

 

 

 

 

*Right Tackle: La’el Collins, 50.7

 

Jordan Mills (65.7) was much better than La'el Collins in 2017, despite Collins playing alongside all-pro talent in Dallas; Collins graded out as 67.3 in 2015 and 42.1 in 2016.

 

There's no evidence that suggests he would have been an upgrade to the Bills' offensive line, if life wasn't made easier for him playing alongside elite talent on Dallas' offensive line, yet you still feel better about him than the entire Bills O-line situation.

 

Mills' grade of 65.7 may have been his best yet playing alongside Ducasse since signing with Buffalo; Ducasse's 75.5 rating was better than Dawkins' 74.5 and his was better than Wood's 67.9.

 

Who's to say that the coaching  doesn't simply, genuinely feel confident that this fairly new O-line can grow together and take another step entering another year together vs. this notion that coaches and the front office elected to ignore the offensive side of the ball?

 

Keep in mind that Wyatt Teller was drafted and by all accounts he seems to be a real find in the fifth round; 98.8 pass-blocking rate and 89.1 run-blocking rate in 2016 at Va. Tech.

 

I don't think this current Bills' regime is anything like past ones.

 

But as you stated, preseason is nearing and it will give us all a better picture of where the team may stand entering the new season and how far along in progression certain players are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

In 2017 they were #4 in rushing attempts, #6 in rushing yards, #15 in rushing TDs, #14 in yards per rushing attempt. For the first part of the 2017 season, the run game wasn't anywhere near as good as the previous two seasons and in the last half of the season, it got much better. I suspect the line was getting used to Dawkins at LT and the line getting used to the new O line coach/run game coordinator in Juan Castillio. Those rushing TDs and yards per attempt never did come close to what they were in 2015, 2016.

 

 

True - but the line performed better down the stretch than it did for the first half of the season. Those numbers were worse through the first 8 or 9 games.  That was a line with Woods and Richie though. Not a guarantee that it performs as it did at the end of the season this year without those guys. 

[billsredneck1]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:34 PM, BurpleBull said:

 

But you don't even know what Daboll plans to do with the offense based on the current roster.

 

You don't know how run-heavy the Bills plan to be this upcoming season.

 

The Bills may feel like they have the type of players in place on the O-line that the offense can succeed behind until they really start committing to the offense.

 

If that's the case then there was no need for them to go crazy in FA or in the draft.

 

I really think people's take on the O-line being neglected and overly ordinary is way overblown.

 

The quality of the O-line should be judged primarily on production, not the names that it is comprised of.

 

I have this feeling that Russell Bodine will prove to be a better pickup than people believed him to be.

i heard an interview with ...i believe...eric winston who i believe played there and he said bodine is really coming into his own and expects him to improve considerably over time.

 

i would rather have groy at a guard spot.  btw  miller had 47 starts at left guard and that is his natural spot and he could be a reuben brown for us there.

i think groy would be a big help at right guard next to mills.  so for me it's  dawkins / miller / bodine / groy / mills or newhouse.

hopefully they get a starting 5 together sooner than later and get them to gel.

Edited July 26, 2018 by billsredneck1

[BurpleBull]

16 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

i heard an interview with ...i believe...eric winston who i believe played there and he said bodine is really coming into his own and expects him to improve considerably over time.

i would rather have groy at a guard spot. 

 

Ahh, man I don't know. I feel Bodine might be better suited at G than Groy.

 

Bodine looks really short at C somehow, I think it could be his short arms and lack of reach that does that; defenders seem to get into his body quickly and push him back because of it, but he did bench press 225lbs. 40 times and he can make blocks upfield.

 

Groy on the other hand has the length and although he doesn't seem to be superior at any one thing, does seem like he would be better at stabilizing the interior of the line; Groy also looks slower and not very athletic.

 

But let's see how things play out.

[Buddy Hix]

If Allen is a bust, Beane has to go. There needs to be accountability for decisions made, and QB is the most important decision.

 

 

[billsredneck1]

2 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

 

Ahh, man I don't know. I feel Bodine might be better suited at G than Groy.

 

Bodine looks really short at C somehow, I think it could be his short arms and lack of reach that does that; defenders seem to get into his body quickly and push him back because of it, but he did bench press 225lbs. 40 times and he can make blocks upfield.

 

Groy on the other hand has the length and although he doesn't seem to be superior at any one thing, does seem like he would be better at stabilizing the interior of the line; Groy also looks slower and not very athletic.

 

But let's see how things play out.

He also said bodine was an excellent run blocker and combined with familiarity with aj, I still think groy should play rg. Miller on the left in his natural spot. I've said it before I think he can be the next Reuben Brown and maybe groy can help protect us from Mills.

Edited July 26, 2018 by billsredneck1

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, Buddy Hix said:

If Allen is a bust, Beane has to go. There needs to be accountability for decisions made, and QB is the most important decision.

 

 

I guess you’ve had about 300 jobs in your life? You only get one chance, eh?  If not, you’re too skeered to make a decision to begin with.

 

You don’t decide on a GM’s worth based on one pick in his first draft. Please, end the insanity.

[Buddy Hix]

4 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I guess you’ve had about 300 jobs in your life? You only get one chance, eh?  If not, you’re too skeered to make a decision to begin with.

 

You don’t decide on a GM’s worth based on one pick in his first draft. Please, end the insanity.

I think you intentionally devalue the importance of the pick by comparing it to any other decision, the pick was THE DECISION. 

 

Beane’s first year was all about this decision, the acquiring of picks, the trades...it all was to get the QB position filled. Beane chose Allen, despite all the red flags, because he believes in an old school approach. If it fails he should be gone.

[Cripple Creek]

Just now, Buddy Hix said:

I think you intentionally devalue the importance of the pick by comparing it to any other decision, the pick was THE DECISION. 

 

Beane’s first year was all about this decision, the acquiring of picks, the trades...it all was to get the QB position filled. Beane chose Allen, despite all the red flags, because he believes in an old school approach. If it fails he should be gone.

Wrong, and thank you for not owning the Bills.

 

You judge a GM similar to how you judge a player. It’s the body of work. Are some plays more important? Yes. Do they tell the entire story? No. Same thing for picks. The glaring difference is you only get 8ish picks/year. To make a rash decision based on one pick does not do a franchise any good. I happen to believe in the guy and what he’s doing. Some, maybe you, don’t and I get that.

 

But, if you want your franchise to fail fire a guy over one pick.

 

What do you do if Rosen and Jackson also bust? Do you still fire Beane?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

Wrong, and thank you for not owning the Bills.

 

You judge a GM similar to how you judge a player. It’s the body of work. Are some plays more important? Yes. Do they tell the entire story? No. Same thing for picks. The glaring difference is you only get 8ish picks/year. To make a rash decision based on one pick does not do a franchise any good. I happen to believe in the guy and what he’s doing. Some, maybe you, don’t and I get that.

 

But, if you want your franchise to fail fire a guy over one pick.

 

What do you do if Rosen and Jackson also bust? Do you still fire Beane?

 

He doesn't get fired for Allen so long as that is what is holding the team back which means he needs to do a good job with the rest of the team.  Not an average job, that is what Whaley did... an average job with the rest of the roster while not sorting out the Quarterback position.  That got him fired and so should it do if Beane ends up in the same boat.  However, if he has done a better than average job with the rest of the roster and it is clearly a Quarterback issue stopping them contending (and I mean for Championships not the playoffs) then he gets another crack at finding his QB.  

 

 

[BurpleBull]

1 hour ago, billsredneck1 said:

He also said bodine was an excellent run blocker and combined with familiarity with aj, I still think groy should play rg. Miller on the left in his natural spot. I've said it before I think he can be the next Reuben Brown and maybe groy can help protect us from Mills.

 

I had no idea LG was Miller's natural spot. That would be interesting to see.

 

But then you have to factor in Ducasse. After Incognito, he had the highest grade of any linemen.

 

This is why I have a feeling that the Bills have better depth on the O-line and are better off then people think right now.

 

Don't forget about Wyatt Teller at G.

 

Really want to see what he looks likes in game action.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, BurpleBull said:

 

I had no idea LG was Miller's natural spot. That would be interesting to see.

 

But then you have to factor in Ducasse. After Incognito, he had the highest grade of any linemen.

 

This is why I have a feeling that the Bills have better depth on the O-line and are better off then people think right now.

 

Don't forget about Wyatt Teller at G.

 

Really want to see what he looks likes in game action.

Agree.  RT could use an upgrade, but tackles of any reasonable quality are at a premium in the league.

[billsredneck1]

19 minutes ago, BurpleBull said:

 

I had no idea LG was Miller's natural spot. That would be interesting to see.

 

But then you have to factor in Ducasse. After Incognito, he had the highest grade of any linemen.

 

This is why I have a feeling that the Bills have better depth on the O-line and are better off then people think right now.

 

Don't forget about Wyatt Teller at G.

 

Really want to see what he looks likes in game action.

Miller played 47 games at lg. I also can't wait to see teller and I'm not buying the ducasse thing anymore than I think of Castillo. Miller in his first year better than ducasse ever and I think groy would help the pass pro on that side.