Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said: We live in dangerous times, Joe. That we do. That we do, indeed. I appreciate the candor, just have my doubts that in today's environment that your approach will work.
Juror#8 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: We have come to a point where the political left is engaging in Brown Shirt tactics, and is being encouraged to do so by it's leaders. Former CIA heads are comparing border detention policies, nearly uniform with those of the prior administration, to death camps. Members of Congress are advocating action just short of riots and violence. There have been Republican members of the House and Senate shot and beaten for their political views as this has escalated. We are now at a point where media members are questioning whether people who support the President should be permitted to work in their chosen profession, where conservative ideas are being no-platformed both in social media, new media, and in live speaking engagements, and condemned as bigoted not on intellectual merits, but because "we said so, shut up", and where right leaning people who dare to express any ideas running counter to the left's narratives are being literally chased from businesses, sometimes assaulted, for simply existing in those spaces. What I, and others here, are trying to explain is that the veil of civility is being shredded, and political violence is being encouraged. Tom mentioned "Bleeding Kansas", and he's spot on. People need to wake up and realize what they're doing. This isn't a Hollywood movie. This **** has real world consequences. Look at historical norms of this sort of thing, and it always leads to the same place. It's not a place anyone wants to live in. So I’m in a weird space right ... where I’m not going to disagree with you but I still want to make sure that I understand the urgency of this political/sociological moment from your vantage’s point. Everything that you referenced - in some form or another, related to some policy or another, in some status or another - has happened unqualifiedly over the last, let’s say twenty, years. In total and as contemporaneous events. Whether it be jokes and other insensitivities related to Gabbie Giffords, or all the conspiratorial vitriol from the left around the Iraq War, or Sarah Palin’s acidic/misleading cat-whistle comments along the 08 trail, the comparisons by the left of Guantanamo to some irredeemable place without any sanctity of laws, white nationalists affiliating with members of the extreme right and being comforted with a seat in office, black nationalist groups affiliating with the left and being comforted with a voice in office, idiots hanging W in effigy, idiots hanging O in effigy, legitimate politicians trying to undermine the legitimacy of government by questioning O’s technical qualifications to be president, politicians intimating that W planned attacks on the country for political gain, Trump using social media to harass people, people using social media to harass Trump and his supporters. And that’s what I can think of right now sitting outside of court on a break eating a Panera Bread muffin. None of this **** is new. Bman’s mind can’t wrap itself around this fact, but hate, repugnance, ugliness, and rancor was directed at Obama and Clinton unjustifiably. Because they were doing their jobs (outside of busting a nut on Monica’s grill). The left can’t wrap its mind around the fact that hate, and intolerance, and filth, and low brow **** was directed at W and it is now at Trump. Its nothing new. This is all a mother!@#$ing rerun to me. So what about the cyclical nature of ugly, retributive politics now brings us to the brink of violence against our own country-men? Why is it worse for Trump than it was for his last few predecessors? Thats what I don’t understand? Truly and sincerely as I can express it, I truly don’t understand. Edited June 27, 2018 by Juror#8
row_33 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Tasker needs a court order for a week away from fake news and the PPP. Then again, at the gas station the aisle next to me had a guy get out of an eggbeater, hit his car door on the metal pump protector and in a rush pulled out 8 large gas cans from the front/back/trunk while looking a bit crazed. may he and Tasker know somethings up at noon today?
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Juror#8 said: So I’m in a weird space right ... where I’m not going to disagree with you but I still want to make sure that I understand the urgency of this political/sociological moment from your vantage’s point. Everything that you referenced - in some form or another, related to some policy or another, in some status or another - has happened unqualifiedly over the last, let’s say twenty, years. In total and as contemporaneous events. Whether it be jokes and other insensitivities related to Gabbie Giffords, or all the conspiratorial vitriol from the left around the Iraq War, or Sarah Palin’s acidic/misleading cat-whistle comments along the 08 trail, the comparisons by the left of Guantanamo to some irredeemable place without any sanctity of laws, white nationalists affiliating with members of the extreme right and being comforted with a seat in office, black nationalist groups affiliating with the left and being comforted with a voice in office, idiots hanging W in effigy, idiots hanging O in effigy, legitimate politicians trying to undermine the legitimacy of government by questioning O’s technical qualifications to be president, politicians intimating that W planned attacks on the country for political gain, Trump using social media to harass people, people using social media to harass Trump and his supporters. And that’s what I can think of right now sitting outside of court on a break eating a Panera Bread muffin. None of this **** is new. Bman’s mind can’t wrap itself around this fact, but hate, repugnance, ugliness, and rancor was directed at Obama and Clinton unjustifiably. Because they were doing their jobs (outside of busting a nut on Monica’s grill). The left can’t wrap its mind around the fact that hate, and intolerance, and filth, and low brow **** was directed at W and it is now at Trump. Its nothing new. This is all a mother!@#$ing rerun to me. So what about the cyclical nature of ugly, retributive politics now brings us to the brink of violence against our own country-men? Why is it worse for Trump than it was for his last few predecessors? Thats what I don’t understand? Truly and sincerely as I can express it, I truly don’t understand. You are 100% correct that for years, at least since Newt Gingrich's days as speaker, though probably longer, rhetoric on both sides has ratcheted up. Occupying the same time, political hypocrisy (on both sides) and left-leaning media bias have been annoyances and points of frustration. However annoyances and points of frustration were all they were. They stymied real leaders who may have been able to work together to build solutions to our problems, and made partisanship advantageous, but that's all. It is, however, a progression, and since the election of President Trump, it's really progressed at a startling rate. Violence and activism which used to occur only on college campuses has spread, is spreading, and is becoming normalized as a legitimate course of action; and on campus it has actually become consistently violent. The left had convinced itself that through changing demographics it had the continuous right to rule; and it was not prepared for the notion that the country, outside of traditional coastal liberal strongholds, actually rejects it's ideas. It's reaction to this reality is staggering. Libertarians, conservatives, and Republicans are no longer individuals they simply disagree with on policy; but instead are actual Nazi's who must be battled in the public square, because actual Nazi's deserve the violence they beget. This is an important change to consider. It's not simply the normalization of political violence, but the insistence that violence is the correct answer because those on the receiving end deserve the violence, and have it coming to them. This is new, and it is incredibly dangerous. Edited June 27, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker 3
Deranged Rhino Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 18 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: You are 100% correct that for years, at least since Newt Gingrich's days as speaker, though probably longer, rhetoric on both sides has ratcheted up. Occupying the same time, political hypocrisy (on both sides) and left-leaning media bias have been annoyances and points of frustration. However annoyances and points of frustration were all they were. They stymied real leaders who may have been able to work together to build solutions to our problems, and made partisanship advantageous, but that's all. It is, however, a progression, and since the election of President Trump, it's really progressed at a startling rate. Violence and activism which used to occur only on college campuses has spread, is spreading, and is becoming normalized as a legitimate course of action; and on campus it has actually become consistently violent. The left had convinced itself that through changing demographics it had the continuous right to rule; and it was not prepared for the notion that the country, outside of traditional coastal liberal strongholds, actually rejects it's ideas. It's reaction to this reality is staggering. Libertarians, conservatives, and Republicans are no longer individuals they simply disagree with on policy; but instead are actual Nazi's who must be battled in the public square, because actual Nazi's deserve the violence they beget. This is an important change to consider. It's not simply the normalization of political violence, but the insistence that violence is the correct answer because those of the receive end deserve the violence, and have it coming to them. This is new, and it is incredibly dangerous. Well said. I'd only add to this by saying the other new variable is the very real possibility of major indictments of big political figures, which if/when it happens will be red meat for the crowd who have been on "Trump's a Nazi" level since election night. The looming threat of actual justice being doled out, is new to many in the political elite class, and they're preparing their supporters for that eventuality. 1
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Well said. I'd only add to this by saying the other new variable is the very real possibility of major indictments of big political figures, which if/when it happens will be red meat for the crowd who have been on "Trump's a Nazi" level since election night. The looming threat of actual justice being doled out, is new to many in the political elite class, and they're preparing their supporters for that eventuality. This is where the powder lies. The ground is being made fertile for civil war by the political class who knows they are about to face reckoning. They are doing it to protect themselves. Which is why the People can't take their cues from their leaders here. If we want peace, we must seek it ourselves. 1
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said: If we want peace, we must seek it ourselves. I have substantial doubts about the left wanting peace.
BringBackOrton Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: That we do. That we do, indeed. I appreciate the candor, just have my doubts that in today's environment that your approach will work. I think that Tasker might not disagree. But it is better to try to live justly and die, then take drastic, irreversible measures to kill our own democracy in order to save it.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: But it is better to try to live justly and die, then take drastic, irreversible measures to kill our own democracy in order to save it. Is it? No snark intended, but I'm of the idea that if I'm gonna go, I'm not going out without a fight.
BringBackOrton Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Is it? No snark intended, but I'm of the idea that if I'm gonna go, I'm not going out without a fight. Yes. Indubitably. To believe otherwise is unAmerican. There is a different between fighting for our democracy, and destroying our democracy for this fight.
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I have substantial doubts about the left wanting peace. The left is just like you. They want to live in comfort, start families, raise children, retire, and grow old with their loved ones. We all want the exact same things. The problem is that people have forgotten this, because they've been systematically encouraged to think of people who disagree politically as enemies rather than neighbors who have different opinions. No one wants blood in the streets, with the narrow exception of true radicals on the fringes, and those in power whom civil war would protect from legal retribution for their myriad of crimes. We are all people, Joe. We all bleed when cut. People need to remember our shared humanity, and then remind others. Edited June 27, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker 4
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 38 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: The left is just like you. They want to live in comfort, start families, raise children, retire, and grow old with their loved ones. We all want the exact same things. They may share human values and desires, yes. I'll grant you that.
row_33 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 the market will crash the civil war will start we will regret not hording Mushroom Soup and tuna tins oh saints protect us!! any second now!!! whatwegondoooooooooooooooooo????????????????? the vans and soldiers collecting people without the Mark of the Beast will kick in faster than it did on that great 70s movie Thief in the Night...
3rdnlng Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, row_33 said: the market will crash the civil war will start we will regret not hording Mushroom Soup and tuna tins oh saints protect us!! any second now!!! whatwegondoooooooooooooooooo????????????????? the vans and soldiers collecting people without the Mark of the Beast will kick in faster than it did on that great 70s movie Thief in the Night... Are you sure you're eating the right mushrooms? You seem to be morphing into gator and I'm not joking. 1
Deranged Rhino Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Eating their own now... because, that's what progressive fascists always do.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: <br /> Wow. Just wow. I realize that progressives are human beings. But they may be some of the most functionally retarded human beings on this planet...as evidenced by voting for THAT woman.
Juror#8 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: You are 100% correct that for years, at least since Newt Gingrich's days as speaker, though probably longer, rhetoric on both sides has ratcheted up. Occupying the same time, political hypocrisy (on both sides) and left-leaning media bias have been annoyances and points of frustration. However annoyances and points of frustration were all they were. They stymied real leaders who may have been able to work together to build solutions to our problems, and made partisanship advantageous, but that's all. It is, however, a progression, and since the election of President Trump, it's really progressed at a startling rate. Violence and activism which used to occur only on college campuses has spread, is spreading, and is becoming normalized as a legitimate course of action; and on campus it has actually become consistently violent. The left had convinced itself that through changing demographics it had the continuous right to rule; and it was not prepared for the notion that the country, outside of traditional coastal liberal strongholds, actually rejects it's ideas. It's reaction to this reality is staggering. Libertarians, conservatives, and Republicans are no longer individuals they simply disagree with on policy; but instead are actual Nazi's who must be battled in the public square, because actual Nazi's deserve the violence they beget. This is an important change to consider. It's not simply the normalization of political violence, but the insistence that violence is the correct answer because those on the receiving end deserve the violence, and have it coming to them. This is new, and it is incredibly dangerous. Good post and some good thoughts. But I’m wrestling somewhat with this ... And not because I necessarily disagree. But rather because I think there is some layering and some context that’s being left out of the discussion. To some what is Trump’s candor is another man’s antagonism. We’ve just never had a president who has used the pulpit like he has to antagonize and to demean. Its brilliant really, the ol’ shikari. But we’ve never seen what’s he’s doing. Ever. Never ever. To some that’s refreshing candor. To other’s that’s divisive needling and antagonism. I’d show you examples but I’m sure you don’t need to see them. Anyway, I think in your analysis you didn’t consider the role that Trump has played in ratcheting up the rhetoric and the level of incivility in public discourse. Again, I can show you examples. But I’m sure I don’t need to see them. While the unassailably intransigent might query: ”does Trump calling someone a ________ on Twitter countenance Maxine Waters saying _________.” To that I would say: “you’re asking the wrong questions.” Trump changed both the landscape, the lexicon and the mechanisms for acceptable public discourse. Remember, “little Marco,” “Lyin Ted,” “Low Energy Jeb,” (I think “Jeb the stiff” was in a debate too if I recall correctly”), and “Crooked Hillary”? Trump happily escalated the vitriol and the disrespect that was acceptable amongst public figures in their interactions with one another. And now there seems to be no boundaries and no bottom to that descent. Not saying that Trump is responsible for the direction or the escalation (maybe devolution is the right word). But his was the opening salvo. And now there seems to be a culture of who can be the most demeaning, and uncivil, and nasty since “!@#$ it, why not; the gloves are off anyway.” There is a mad race to the bottom and the libs don’t appear to want to be last in that endeavor. I went to a Trump campaign rally in Hagerstown. I posted in this forum if anyone wanted to attend with me and I’d buy them a beer. Look it up. I saw the monkey show first hand. I saw billboards with faces as targets and billboards inciting actual violence against the “un-Americans.” The billboard had cartoonish faces of Obama, Pelosi, and Steny Hoyer. I’m not naive enough to think that that behavior is unique to Trump campaign events. I went to a John Kerry rally in 2004 and Roseanne Barr and Bruce Springsteen were there (yep, Roseanne was campaigning for Kerry). I saw things there that were questionable directed at W. I saw things there that were cringeworthy. I just think this board has a short memory. And there is an effort to pin incivility at the feet of the left and I don’t believe that’s true. I believe that there is a concerted and very purposeful effort to be hateful amongst politicians that vox populi has interpreted literally as “!@#$ the other side.” And what they could once only understand ok but not speak, that voice of the people now fluently speaks that language of hate. Civility and brotherhood is unrequited by both sides. One of the last high profile vestiges of well-mannered politics was John McCain. A good dude and a better American. He had his face **** and pissed on. By Trump. But who the !@#$ am I anyway? I’m just a humble mother!@#$er with a big dick. Edited June 27, 2018 by Juror#8
Deranged Rhino Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Juror#8 said: One of the last high profile vestiges of well-mannered politics was John McCain. A good dude and a better American. He had his face **** and pissed on. By Trump. You've been hoodwinked. JM is no great American. He's a seditious, treasonous snake whose legacy will end up in the ash heap of history.
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