eball Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Shaw66 said: Nick O'Leary. People joke about the Bills receiving, but Clay was 14th in the league in tight end receptions and O'Leary was 36th (which means he's more or less the 4th best second tight end on any team). Tight is covered. And imagine what Clay might do if he is catching the ball in stride rather than reaching back for it!
Augie Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, eball said: And imagine what Clay might do if he is catching the ball in stride rather than reaching back for it! ....or just plain ignored while running free. I’m not a Tyrod hater, but....
26CornerBlitz Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, eball said: And imagine what Clay might do if he is catching the ball in stride rather than reaching back for it! What was the excuse for his drop in NE before the Benjamin TD catch was overturned on the next play? 1
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I don't think WR/pass catchers is as much of an issue as it's made out to be by most, but there's certainly a lot of question marks there. Most of my questions have to do with who will be WRs 3-5, and not so much the health of Benjamin and Clay. Everyone knows that Clay has chronic knee issues, and the Bills have done a good job of limiting him during the week. In 3 years with the Bills, he's missed 7 of 48 starts, not quite as bad as people might think. Nick O'Leary has really come along as a solid #2 with reliable hands, so missing Clay for a couple games isn't going to kill the offense. Benjamin had the non-contact injury in 2015, and was injured last year after taking a shot to the knee. Both kind of flukey, although you could argue that his legs are are greater targets due to his size and lack of elusiveness. Hitting him with passes in stride can alleviate that some. Zay...huge question mark, but he's shown to be reliable at ECU. Hopefully he's learned a lot since then... As for Shady, he's a threat any time he touches the ball, but I think he sees less targets in this offense. He'll be tasked with staying in to help block more often, IMO, especially if the offensive line has its struggles (which most people expect). And Ivory is a capable receiving option out of the backfield to consider. With that being said, as of right now, the group is probably bottom 5, until they prove otherwise. Part of their production will be based on the play of their QB(s?), which will be based on how well the line holds up. But one thing to consider is that WRs in this offense are much more interchangeable than in other offenses, and an injury or two may not hurt quite as much as they might in WC or AC based offenses. Losing Benjamin and/or Clay obviously wouldn't be good, especially for long periods, but this scheme isn't as "skill-set dependent", and it would give other guys down the depth chart a chance to prove themselves. I will say this though...if the Bills fail to win 10 games (which I don't believe they will), it won't be so as much due to the WRs as it will the QB and O-line. I think there will be too many growing pains there. I see a 6-9 win team, with a win total on the higher end being reliant on a much improved defense. 16 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: What was the excuse for his drop in NE before the Benjamin TD catch was overturned on the next play? A drop... it happens. You highlighted one play. He's made plenty of catches, many of which were not so easy. Clay is the least of my worries.
26CornerBlitz Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said: I don't think WR/pass catchers is as much of an issue as it's made out to be by most, but there's certainly a lot of question marks there. Most of my questions have to do with who will be WRs 3-5, and not so much the health of Benjamin and Clay. Everyone knows that Clay has chronic knee issues, and the Bills have done a good job of limiting him during the week. In 3 years with the Bills, he's missed 7 of 48 starts, not quite as bad as people might think. Nick O'Leary has really come along as a solid #2 with reliable hands, so missing Clay for a couple games isn't going to kill the offense. Benjamin had the non-contact injury in 2015, and was injured last year after taking a shot to the knee. Both kind of flukey, although you could argue that his legs are are greater targets due to his size and lack of elusiveness. Hitting him with passes in stride can alleviate that some. Zay...huge question mark, but he's shown to be reliable at ECU. Hopefully he's learned a lot since then... As for Shady, he's a threat any time he touches the ball, but I think he sees less targets in this offense. He'll be tasked with staying in to help block more often, IMO, especially if the offensive line has its struggles (which most people expect). And Ivory is a capable receiving option out of the backfield to consider. With that being said, as of right now, the group is probably bottom 5, until they prove otherwise. Part of their production will be based on the play of their QB(s?), which will be based on how well the line holds up. But one thing to consider is that WRs in this offense are much more interchangeable than in other offenses, and an injury or two may not hurt quite as much as they might in WC or AC based offenses. Losing Benjamin and/or Clay obviously wouldn't be good, especially for long periods, but this scheme isn't as "skill-set dependent", and it would give other guys down the depth chart a chance to prove themselves. I will say this though...if the Bills fail to win 10 games (which I don't believe they will), it won't be so as much due to the WRs as it will the QB and O-line. I think there will be too many growing pains there. I see a 6-9 win team, with a win total on the higher end being reliant on a much improved defense. A drop... it happens. You highlighted one play. He's made plenty of catches, many of which were not so easy. Clay is the least of my worries. I don't recall him making many great catches and you should worry more given the state of his knees. When healthy he is a good all around TE.
John from Riverside Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I just think it is difficult to even know what we have when our past offenses were not centered around it. We have been (and may still be) a run dominant team that doesnt throw the ball as much as other teams......teams that throw the ball around are going to have better numbers and production from their pass catcher's by default. Put a QB behind center that delivers the rock? You might have a different result. 2
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: I don't recall him making many great catches and you should worry more given the state of his knees. When healthy he is a good all around TE. He's missed 7 games in 3 years with the Bills. Since becoming a starter in Miami, he's never missed more than 3 starts in a season. Of course the knee issue is worrisome, but it hasn't been as big an issue as it's often made out to be IMO. It'd be nice to see him start all 16, but that shouldn't be expected. When he starts missing huge chunks of a season, I'll worry more. And yeah, he's no Gronk. He's not going to make too many highly contested catches that bigger, faster TEs tend to make more often, but he's been a reliable option in the passing game throughout his career, and has made several big plays for the Bills. He also hasn't had the best of QBs throwing him the ball in his career either.
Tipster19 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Once again don’t have the time to read all the responses but I believe that McBeane is building a team the right way, dismantled, defense first, potential franchise QB and waiting on the rest of the offense (OL & WR) positions to be fully addressed. I believe that we are in Stage 2 of a 4 5 Stage process. Problem is that this isn’t developing quick for a starving fan base. We all don’t have no choice but to wait and observe. In the mean time this is great fodder for message boards. Patience is a virtue. 1
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, John from Riverside said: I just think it is difficult to even know what we have when our past offenses were not centered around it. We have been (and may still be) a run dominant team that doesnt throw the ball as much as other teams......teams that throw the ball around are going to have better numbers and production from their pass catcher's by default. Put a QB behind center that delivers the rock? You might have a different result. Good point. But I don't think it will be so much about the numbers, as it will being efficient and making plays when called upon, especially over the next year or two. Edited June 20, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat 1
nedboy7 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Ah some good old Bills bashing. This is refreshing.
MJS Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 I think we'll be fine at WR and fine at OL, but you don't want to just be fine. You want to be really good. It'll take another off-season or two for that to happen, though, but that doesn't mean we can't win some games or even make the playoffs.
Reader Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: I just think it is difficult to even know what we have when our past offenses were not centered around it. We have been (and may still be) a run dominant team that doesnt throw the ball as much as other teams......teams that throw the ball around are going to have better numbers and production from their pass catcher's by default. Put a QB behind center that delivers the rock? You might have a different result. This is an excellent point. Of course I would keep in mind why the team has been a run dominant team. I think (and I'm sure it's debatable) Lynn, Roman and even to a lesser extent less talented coordinators were wise enough to play to our strength of running as opposed to passing. 1
freddyjj Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Glad to see the Bills passing game as a subject. Last year was abysmal due to OC's game plans, a timid QB and the litany of injuries at WR and TE. It can only improve this year! Why? WRs Benjamin and Kerley are experienced WRs in this league who have had success and will be healthy this year. A speed element from Streater, Kaelin Clay or Foster could be a bonus. OC The fact they drafted 2 slot WRs tells me that Daboll will have a horizontal aspect to the passing game too. He will always scheme to get a mismatch and that may be in the slot. RBs Shady, Ivory, Cadet and DiMarco are all good at Pass blocking and as receivers. Daboll will get them in space via mismatches. We will have to get use to a passing offense - last time we saw one was Chan Gailey era.
Aussie Joe Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Who said that? A ton of people loved the Hyde signing and we spent a 1st round pick on a qb. i will blindly trust this regime on the defense side, especially d backs. But our offensive evaluations so far have sucked, minus perhaps Dawkins. We don’t have one receiver who threatens a defense vertically. That’s a huge problem. Plenty of people here at the time and at least one media "expert"... https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/09/buffalo_bills_secondary_among_nfls_worst_defensive_positional_units_says_espn.html The WR's don't look great on paper but they will have a few new faces, a new Co-ordinator and new QB throwing them the ball... Im prepared to wait and see and hope for the best at this stage,,,
Green Lightning Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Rigotz said: The Bills have the worst passing lineup in the league. On paper, I agree. 1
3rdand12 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Who said that? A ton of people loved the Hyde signing and we spent a 1st round pick on a qb. i will blindly trust this regime on the defense side, especially d backs. But our offensive evaluations so far have sucked, minus perhaps Dawkins. We don’t have one receiver who threatens a defense vertically. That’s a huge problem. Streater is healthy so far 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Good points, all. I say it over and over again - it's about coaching, folks. There are about 10 or 15 receivers in the league who can get open on their own. Most who can do it with speed, quickness and moves. Benjamin is one; he does it with size. Like Gronk does. So he's a legit #1, just not a legit deep threat. The rest of the receivers in the league get open by running their routes precisely and taking advantage of mismatches in the defensive scheme. You don't have to be Sammy Watkins to do that. The Bills receiving personnel is okay, and some of the youngsters will also emerge to be okay. I read an article today with Beane quotes about wide receivers. on bleacher report I think. He seems to be about creating mismatches by bringing multiple skills sets who also can play xyz etc to some degree. I gathered he likes to WR by Committee for now at least.. just get open and move the chains. that does work. maybe less exciting
artmalibu Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 QB play will be the determining factor, not the guys catching the ball...
Shaw66 Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 19 minutes ago, artmalibu said: QB play will be the determining factor, not the guys catching the ball... Absolutely right. The receivers will run the routes; the QBs have to make the plays.
JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Tipster19 said: Once again don’t have the time to read all the responses but I believe that McBeane is building a team the right way, dismantled, defense first, potential franchise QB and waiting on the rest of the offense (OL & WR) positions to be fully addressed. I believe that we are in Stage 2 of a 4 5 Stage process. Problem is that this isn’t developing quick for a starving fan base. We all don’t have no choice but to wait and observe. In the mean time this is great fodder for message boards. Patience is a virtue. gonna be a long, long offseason at TBD ... 1
Dadonkadonk Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 RBs don't slow down. They fall off the cliff. Not saying it is going to happen this year but it can. As I have stated before, Ivory will not make it out of camp. He has already fallen off the cliff. What will determine whether the offense will succeed or not is the TD/INT ratio. If the QB and passing game can be more productive without a significant increase in INT's the offense can be more successful. The next most important issue will be third down conversions. Even under TT this was a big issue. He did convert some first downs with his legs but there was a high number of 3 and outs. Again this is all negated by turnovers. If they can convert more third downs and keep the defense off the field that should be a positive. But if it is at the expense of a pick six or a red zone turnover then the offense will be worse off. This board screamed for more points (apparently top 10 was not good enough), yards, and TD passes. None of those matter if the turnovers increase significantly. Even for me TT was too conservative, but those of us that defended him did so based on low turnover rate. Those that wanted him gone pointed to yards, TD passes, and 4th quarter comebacks. I hope AJ and then Josh are the right blend of aggressiveness and ball security.
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