BringBackOrton Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: From the same article I posted above, talking about the legal entry point you mention: So let's get this out of the way - this is a complicated situation and there are no easy answers. There is a legal entry point but it isn't always open. Some prospective asylum seekers will then illegally cross the border anyways, and if/when they turn themselves in or are caught they are placed in detention centers. In the past the families wouldn't be separated, they would be kept together until an available judge could hear their case for political asylum. Those found to have a "credible fear" would eventually be given asylum. So these detention centers are a necessary evil. We have to keep them somewhere while they wait to hear their asylum case. I don't have a problem with that. The Trump administration however has taken up a zero-tolerance policy wherein families waiting for their "credible fear" hearings are separated. Children and parents are placed in separate facilities. The parents are often lied to first to make the separation easier. They wont hear from their children again for several weeks or months. This is true whether or not they have a legitimate case for political asylum. The admin's stated reason for this new policy is deterrence. They want prospective asylum seekers to be afraid that their children will be punished. I guess you have to decide for yourself if you're okay with that. Me, I think this is monstrous. I never thought such a policy would be up for debate in America. I know I'm not the only one in this thread that is a parent so I would just ask any of you to imagine yourself and your child in this situation before deciding how you feel about it. I too had to imagine if I was a Jew to sympathize with Holocaust survivors. Edited June 17, 2018 by BringBackOrton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I know I'm not the only one in this thread that is a parent so I would just ask any of you to imagine yourself and your child in this situation before deciding how you feel about it. I wouldn't be so irresponsible as to put my child in a situation where I know that she could be separated from me by the authorities. To be clear: this isn't a government issue. It's a bad parenting issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I wouldn't be so irresponsible as to put my child in a situation where I know that she could be separated from me by the authorities. To be clear: this isn't a government issue. It's a bad parenting issue. Then you have ignored the part of my post where I say this is a new policy by the Trump administration. Asylum seekers have never had this happen to them before and shouldn't be expected to know that it is a possibility. And really, let's not pretend this is a simple matter of parents putting their children in danger. You know very well that many of these parents, the ones who will eventually be granted asylum, are escaping from danger with their children. This is the definition of a rock and a hard place and for some reason the Trump administration has taken it upon themselves to be the rock. Edited June 17, 2018 by HappyDays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Then you have ignored the part of my post where I say this is a new policy by the Trump administration. Asylum seekers have never had this happen to them before. And really, let's not pretend this is a simple matter of parents putting their children in danger. You know very well that many of these parents, the ones who will eventually be granted asylum, are escaping from danger with their children. This is the definition of a rock and a hard place and for some reason the Trump administration has taken it upon themselves to be the rock. Would you agree there are other places these asylum seekers could look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: If they were to agree to a fix then such as a wall, ending chain migration and getting rid of the lottery they would no longer have an issue to try to gain Hispanic votes. I don't believe that ending this policy of separating children from their parents for weeks or months should require concessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albwan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I'm screaming at the sky, tears streaming down my face, fists clenched in fury, when i think about manafort's children ARRRGHHHH...GOD NO WHY WHY WHY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 minute ago, joesixpack said: Would you agree there are other places these asylum seekers could look? Not in every case. And of course this has nothing to do with the policy of separating children from their parents for weeks or months at a time. I'm glad to see most of you are trying to dodge the issue. It means that deep down the issue still troubles you. There is no reason we need to be doing this. Even if you are a staunch anti-immigration advocate you have to admit that punishing children is a new low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, HappyDays said: From the same article I posted above, talking about the legal entry point you mention: So let's get this out of the way - this is a complicated situation and there are no easy answers. There is a legal entry point but it isn't always open. Some prospective asylum seekers will then illegally cross the border anyways, and if/when they turn themselves in or are caught they are placed in detention centers. In the past the families wouldn't be separated, they would be kept together until an available judge could hear their case for political asylum. Those found to have a "credible fear" would eventually be given asylum. So these detention centers are a necessary evil. We have to keep them somewhere while they wait to hear their asylum case. I don't have a problem with that. The Trump administration however has taken up a zero-tolerance policy wherein families waiting for their "credible fear" hearings are separated. Children and parents are placed in separate facilities. The parents are often lied to first to make the separation easier. They wont hear from their children again for several weeks or months. This is true whether or not they have a legitimate case for political asylum. The admin's stated reason for this new policy is deterrence. They want prospective asylum seekers to be afraid that their children will be punished. I guess you have to decide for yourself if you're okay with that. Me, I think this is monstrous. I never thought such a policy would be up for debate in America. I know I'm not the only one in this thread that is a parent so I would just ask any of you to imagine yourself and your child in this situation before deciding how you feel about it. Our border is being inundated with people who are now seeking asylum. Our court system is backlogged. The DOJ has increased judges to handle this but face it, everyone is claiming asylum and we're overrun. Still, the dems won't agree to a workable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Albwan said: I'm screaming at the sky, tears streaming down my face, fists clenched in fury, when i think about manafort's children ARRRGHHHH...GOD NO WHY WHY WHY You on the other hand are not troubled by the policy deep down. I believe people like you relish in it and genuinely don't care to learn about the suffering of people outside your inner circle of family and friends. 1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said: Our border is being inundated with people who are now seeking asylum. Our court system is backlogged. The DOJ has increased judges to handle this but face it, everyone is claiming asylum and we're overrun. Still, the dems won't agree to a workable solution. And you still have not commented on the policy being discussed here, which is children being forcibly separated from their parents for weeks or months at a time. Nothing that you say runs contrary to what I have said which is that this policy needs to end. As I said above I take this dodging as a sign that you find the policy morally wrong, so I am thankful for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Not in every case. And of course this has nothing to do with the policy of separating children from their parents for weeks or months at a time. I'm glad to see most of you are trying to dodge the issue. It means that deep down the issue still troubles you. There is no reason we need to be doing this. Even if you are a staunch anti-immigration advocate you have to admit that punishing children is a new low. Whats worse? Putting children in detention centers meant for adults with people who could be violent criminals or in centers designed for children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't believe that ending this policy of separating children from their parents for weeks or months should require concessions. Concessions? It needs a solution, and the dems want to keep this issue alive. They are the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albwan Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: You on the other hand are not troubled by the policy deep down. I believe people like you relish in it and genuinely don't care to learn about the suffering of people outside your inner circle of family and friends. Ok, i'll bite. nope i don't care. I would rather my taxes go to take care of hungry and homeless US citizens. Not giving out free stuff just because people come barging in, demanding stuff. get real. If you have hungry and homeless people you don't have room for any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 5 hours ago, ALF said: Can you link that policy under Obama , just a quick look I found the following When the Obama administration attempted to respond to the “crisis” of families and unaccompanied children crossing the border in summer 2014, it put hundreds of families in immigration detention — a practice that had basically ended several years before. But federal courts stopped the administration from holding families for months without justifying the decision to keep them in detention. So most families ended up getting released while their cases were pending — which immigration hawks have derided as “catch and release.” In some cases, they disappeared into the US rather than showing up for their court dates. https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/barack-obama-separated-kids-from-parents-at-the-border-too-x2RRroJxtk-iUfpdiPIbJQ/ Another key point is that many times the children aren't actually with adults who are their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, HappyDays said: From the same article I posted above, talking about the legal entry point you mention: So let's get this out of the way - this is a complicated situation and there are no easy answers. There is a legal entry point but it isn't always open. Some prospective asylum seekers will then illegally cross the border anyways, and if/when they turn themselves in or are caught they are placed in detention centers. In the past the families wouldn't be separated, they would be kept together until an available judge could hear their case for political asylum. Those found to have a "credible fear" would eventually be given asylum. So these detention centers are a necessary evil. We have to keep them somewhere while they wait to hear their asylum case. I don't have a problem with that. The Trump administration however has taken up a zero-tolerance policy wherein families waiting for their "credible fear" hearings are separated. Children and parents are placed in separate facilities. The parents are often lied to first to make the separation easier. They wont hear from their children again for several weeks or months. This is true whether or not they have a legitimate case for political asylum. The admin's stated reason for this new policy is deterrence. They want prospective asylum seekers to be afraid that their children will be punished. I guess you have to decide for yourself if you're okay with that. Me, I think this is monstrous. I never thought such a policy would be up for debate in America. I know I'm not the only one in this thread that is a parent so I would just ask any of you to imagine yourself and your child in this situation before deciding how you feel about it. Odd thing about your post is that you generalize from a very narrow qualification of "people seeking asylum illegally crossing the border." You admit it's a complicated situation...then aggressively simplify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: Tell me if that makes you feel any better when you read articles like this: https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/amp/?__twitter_impression=true It just breaks my heart that breaking the law has foreseen consequences, and that trying to use children as human shields isn't working. 37 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't believe that ending this policy of separating children from their parents for weeks or months should require concessions. It's not a policy, it's enforcing laws already on the books. You know, laws passed by Congress. Laws that can be changed, but won't be because the Democrats don't actually give a !@#$ about solutions when they can run ads about sob stories. Stop acting like this "policy" is new to the Trump administration, you're just sounding foolish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 It is a very complicated situation, and a situation that is being taken advantage of. The real issue is what it has always been. These countries governments are not being held to account for the claimed atrocities, and are using the US as a relief valve. Make no mistake. This is as much an industry as it is a human interest story. Do you think persecuted Indians would storm the Pakistan border? People are getting paid for this. There is no vetting of these decapitation stories. That is not to say I, or anyone else in the US is not sympathetic to the plight of the folks in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras or anywhere else in Central America, but I have watched this for decades, and while the strategy changes, the goal is always the same. Get people in the US. Get the money back to the home country, and do so while screaming ab out humanitarian atrocities. The answer is obvious. Force the govs to fix those atrocities, or we fight and pay for this forever. Sorry if that seems unsympathetic. It isn't. It is reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Koko78 said: trying to use children as human shields isn't working. Some of you people are just bad people. I don't know how to argue against this. You think these parents are using their children as human shields! Not that they're trying to get their families out of dangerous situations, but that they maliciously bring them only to have a better chance of being granted entry. You're not a parent, are you? 13 minutes ago, Koko78 said: It's not a policy, it's enforcing laws already on the books. You know, laws passed by Congress. Please point me to the law on the books that says illegal immigrants will have their children forcibly separated for weeks or months at a time. In some countries you'll get your hand cut off for stealing bread. But that doesn't make hunger go away. A poor person there either goes hungry or makes a risky choice to steal bread, either way they are probably screwed. For many of you that situation just boils down to a lawbreaker being punished I guess. Well I've spent enough of my Sunday trying to convince you all that forcibly separating children from their parents for weeks or months at a time is a monstrous policy. Oh I almost forgot, happy Father's Day to everyone in this thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Some of you people are just bad people. I don't know how to argue against this. You think these parents are using their children as human shields! Not that they're trying to get their families out of dangerous situations, but that they maliciously bring them only to have a better chance of being granted entry. You're not a parent, are you? Please point me to the law on the books that says illegal immigrants will have their children forcibly separated for weeks or months at a time. In some countries you'll get your hand cut off for stealing bread. But that doesn't make hunger go away. A poor person there either goes hungry or makes a risky choice to steal bread, either way they are probably screwed. For many of you that situation just boils down to a lawbreaker being punished I guess. Well I've spent enough of my Sunday trying to convince you all that forcibly separating children from their parents for weeks or months at a time is a monstrous policy. Oh I almost forgot, happy Father's Day to everyone in this thread! This is a problem caused by the intransigence of the dems. They don't want to solve this problem. They want a political issue that they can falsely blame on their political opponents come election time. Trump has already offered them 3 times what they were asking for to solve the DACA problem but they have to give him his wall, something that the majority of the people want. The dems know that the wall was a staple of his campaign and don't want to give him a political victory (in their minds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Please point me to the law on the books that says illegal immigrants will have their children forcibly separated for weeks or months at a time. You know, I love this dipschiff liberal sleight-of-hand nonsense. Nothing is as disingenuous as demanding to be pointed to a law that would never be passed as some sort of rhetorical "victory", while completely ignoring the laws that require illegal immigrants to be detained pending deportation proceedings, and the laws that prohibit children from being detained in detention centers. In fact, what you're so stupidly advocating for - that children be locked up in detention centers so that we don't separate families - is even more cruel than the nonsense you're so disingenuously railing against. Of course, if you just want to do away with all this "due process" nonsense and go straight to immediate family deportation, I'd be down with that as well. 19 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Well I've spent enough of my Sunday trying to convince you all that forcibly separating children from their parents for weeks or months at a time is a monstrous policy. I'd really like to see the statistics on how many of these children actually belong to the people illegally crossing the border. Of course, I'm sure you'd rather be complicit in human trafficking for political convenience. It is all about the children, after all. 20 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Some of you people are just bad people. I don't know how to argue against this. You think these parents are using their children as human shields! Not that they're trying to get their families out of dangerous situations, but that they maliciously bring them only to have a better chance of being granted entry. You're not a parent, are you? Those people aren't using children as human shields. YOU ARE. Think about that for a minute. You don't seem to care that they're breaking the law, only that they're "monstrously" being "ripped" away and whatever other hyperbolic nonsense you want to spew. We are a nation of laws. If they want to come here, how about they (and you) actually bother to respect the law? If you don't like the law, how about you call your Congresscritters and demand that they stop playing partisan politics and change the law? Did that ever occur to you? We don't ignore the law based on how you feel today. That's not how it works. As 3rd just pointed out, your heroes don't want to fix the problem, because they can show pictures of kids and blame Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Please point me to the law on the books that says illegal immigrants will have their children forcibly separated for weeks or months at a time. You're right. There is no law that says families of illegal immigrants should be split up. There is a law, however, that says illegal immigrants can be jailed (8 U.S. Code § 1325 (a)). So...what you're really arguing is that, by law, those children should be imprisoned with adults. Maybe - and I'm just spitballing here - you should argue that immigration law is bull **** and desperately needs to be amended, instead of arguing "Trump's a big ol' meanie." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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