Thurman#1 Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Red King said: ...you know another signifigantly below average offense? Buffalo's. You're right, yards given up is a far more meaningful stat then points. When time runs out, points are just a guideline. Buffalo did not lose the playoff game because the Jags scored seven more points then the Bills, the Bills lost because they only gained 263 yards, when the Jags gained...230. Wait, this can't be right. We got more yards then the Jags...but somehow lost? Yet you insist yards gained/surrendered is a far more important stat then points. What a strange paradox. We got robbed! Buffalo won that playoff game! The NFL screwed up and looked at points, not yards! ...oh...no...wait...I suppose points actually do matter a lot more then yards. ? Buffalo held the Jags to 10 points in their own stadium...the same Jags that put up 45 on Pitt and 20 on NE on the road the following two weeks. I'd call that wonderful. Yup, points matter way more than yards. But to repeat yet again the obvious, points given up matter a lot but they refer back to the whole team. Not just the defense. The whole team. Whereas yards given up do a great job of isolating the defense as the responsible party. How many points are charged against the defense if Tyrod throws an INT and it's run back for a TD? Or if Tyrod ... um ... does his Tyrod thing and throws INTs at a much lower rate than other QBs, who gets the credit for that if you only look at points given up? Yup, great job, Tyrod ... uh, I mean great job defense. So call it wonderful all you want, but you're calling the whole team wonderful, not just the defense. The offense and STs share a lot of the credit if they consistently put the other team in bad field position by not turning the ball over, etc. The stat that isolates the defense tells the real story. Yards given up. Which again is that looking at those 13 games alone the defense gave up yards at a rate that would have put them at 20th in the league. That of course meant that the offense was given relatively poor field position and started drives at a disadvantage. Edited June 13, 2018 by Thurman#1
The Red King Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Yup, points matter way more than yards. But to repeat yet again the obvious, points given up matter a lot but they refer back to the whole team. Not just the defense. The whole team. Whereas yards given up do a great job of isolating the defense as the responsible party. How many points are charged against the defense if Tyrod throws an INT and it's run back for a TD? Or if Tyrod ... um ... does his Tyrod thing and throws INTs at a much lower rate than other QBs, who gets the credit for that if you only look at points given up? Yup, great job, Tyrod ... uh, I mean great job defense. So call it wonderful all you want, but you're calling the whole team wonderful, not just the defense. The offense and STs share a lot of the credit if they consistently put the other team in bad field position by not turning the ball over, etc. The stat that isolates the defense tells the real story. Yards given up. Which again is that looking at those 13 games alone the defense gave up yards at a rate that would have put them at 20th in the league. That of course meant that the offense was given relatively poor field position and started drives at a disadvantage. We're not gonna see eye to eye here. We have drastically different views on bend-but-don't-break defenses. The real story is, the defense played well enough most games to give the offense a chance to win. They went into Jacksonville and told the offense, "You put 10 points up, all game, and we're going to OT. Put up 11...we'll win." I'd take that in a heartbeat. Yards per game is not a statistic in a bubble as you claim. How often was the Buffalo D out there? How many three and outs by the Buffalo O? Buffalo's poor offensive play contributed to defensive fatigue, and as such directly impacted yards surrendered. Sorry, there is no one statistic that tells the whole story, isolated from any other factor. The Bills' defense regularly kept the team in the game far later then it had any right to. I see that as having played wonderfully, given how woeful the offense was. You obviously disagree, but there is no isolated statistic that will prove either of us right, so we'll each have to hold to our opinion on the matter.
Thurman#1 Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Red King said: We're not gonna see eye to eye here. We have drastically different views on bend-but-don't-break defenses. The real story is, the defense played well enough most games to give the offense a chance to win. They went into Jacksonville and told the offense, "You put 10 points up, all game, and we're going to OT. Put up 11...we'll win." I'd take that in a heartbeat. Yards per game is not a statistic in a bubble as you claim. How often was the Buffalo D out there? How many three and outs by the Buffalo O? Buffalo's poor offensive play contributed to defensive fatigue, and as such directly impacted yards surrendered. Sorry, there is no one statistic that tells the whole story, isolated from any other factor. The Bills' defense regularly kept the team in the game far later then it had any right to. I see that as having played wonderfully, given how woeful the offense was. You obviously disagree, but there is no isolated statistic that will prove either of us right, so we'll each have to hold to our opinion on the matter. Is that how it works? You take one game that fits your story and pretend that's how it all looked? OK, fine. Two can play at that. The Saints came into our home. And put up 482 yards on our defense and ran up a score so ridiculously out of reach, 47 points, that the offense didn't have the slightest chance of getting us in the game, much less winning. That shows as much about the season as did your one game example. As seems usual for you, you throw up yet another straw man argument. Just as I didn't claim yards was the "most important" as you said I did, I also didn't claim it's a "statistic in a bubble." It's not. But yeah, it absolutely separates what the defense is responsible for a ton better than points does. If the defense stops teams quick, the yards stay down. If they don't stop teams, the yards go up. Opponents can't run plays against our offense or our STs and have them affect the "yards allowed" stat. Only plays against the defense count, unlike the "Points allowed" stat where the defense looks terrible by allowing seven points if Tyrod throws a pick-six or by allowing three points if Shady fumbles and the ball is recovered on the Bills seven and the defense throws 'em back to the 20 and a field goal is kicked. Yards on the other hand are either allowed or not allowed by the defense and the defense alone. So yeah, yards do a vastly better job of isolating the units than points does. And sure Buffalo's bad offense had a bad effect on the defense at times. Know what also had a bad effect on the defense? Their inability to get off the field. The defense ranked 29th in the league last year in plays per drive. They couldn't get off the field. "How often was the Buffalo D out there," you ask? Don't ask unless you want someone to tell you. The Buffalo D was out there 175 times. Slightly below the league average of 179 times. Glad I could help you out with that. And in those 175 drives they allowed 1.99 points per drive, (23rd in the league) and 32.47 yards per drive (26th in the league). Oh, and while the offense was woeful in some ways, they managed games pretty well. That's why the defense faced less drives than average. The offense had few turnovers (8th-fewest), they burnt up clock with runs, and they ran more plays per drive than average (12th), resting the defense. And while our offense wasn't good ... wait for it ... that doesn't prove our defense was "great" and "wonderful." It wasn't. It was slightly below average, 20th, even if you throw out it's worst three games. Which you shouldn't do, by the way. This isn't a matter at which one of us will be proved right. The results are in. They weren't even good, much less wonderful. They also weren't as bad as many wanted to say. But "wonderful" and "great" they weren't. They just weren't. Not even if you throw out their worst three games - which by the way would make nearly any unit, defense or offense, look pretty good if you then compare them to the rest of the teams without throwing out their three worst games. Calling them wonderful or great is laughable. I'm sure they'd agree. Ask anyone on that defense or coaching staff if the Bills D played "wonderfully" last year. Edited June 13, 2018 by Thurman#1
Delete This Account Posted June 13, 2018 Posted June 13, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 11:56 AM, Ridgewaycynic2013 said: Grover Cleveland?! Either you're civic minded, or journalism pay isn't what I thought it was. Does that count as a 'flame'? ?? Hah. Nope, it's the closest to home and a nice easy 3-hour walk, especially when you get there first thing in the morning. i've gotten to know the guys who tee off first thing, and it's become both a weekly social and workout thing for me. jw
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