The_Dude Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 How much should a man be taxed? I’ve been asking myself that a lot lately. How much is a patriotic sacrifice and at what point does it turn into tyrannical oppression? Because I’m at 25%. Think about it — if a man labors for 40 years he’ll have sacrificed 10 years of his labor to society to pay for roads, schools, and the military. That’s a lot to ask of a man, isn’t it? I think so. But I’m not paying $.25 on the dollar....I’m payin a lot more and I can’t help but ask myself ‘What Would Jefferson do?’ So, what do you think? At what point do taxes become oppressive and are we currently there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 things get a lot worse when one gets laid off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, The_Dude said: How much should a man be taxed? I’ve been asking myself that a lot lately. How much is a patriotic sacrifice and at what point does it turn into tyrannical oppression? Because I’m at 25%. Think about it — if a man labors for 40 years he’ll have sacrificed 10 years of his labor to society to pay for roads, schools, and the military. That’s a lot to ask of a man, isn’t it? I think so. But I’m not paying $.25 on the dollar....I’m payin a lot more and I can’t help but ask myself ‘What Would Jefferson do?’ So, what do you think? At what point do taxes become oppressive and are we currently there? You sound very Libertarian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You sound very Libertarian! My domestic policy is mostly libertarian. However, my foreign policy is anything but that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, The_Dude said: My domestic policy is mostly libertarian. However, my foreign policy is anything but that. you just put up with it and they go up and up and up and then one day a politician tells you that's enough and you get so blinkety-blank mad and realize it's not really a donkey ride to heaven under liberal government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Used to be worse. 90% under the Eisenhower years for the top rate. FDR wanted 100% tax rate on anyone making over $25K back in '43. Just think, there wasn't really an income tax until 1913 (excepting some wartime circumstances). We've come a long way, baby. ? For myself? I'd love to pay 25% all in. I have a complicated situation in that I am technically retired, but do have self-employment income. Let's just say there has been many a time where I've thought, "WTH am I doing this!?" for the amount of cash I actually take home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 36 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said: Used to be worse. 90% under the Eisenhower years for the top rate. FDR wanted 100% tax rate on anyone making over $25K back in '43. Just think, there wasn't really an income tax until 1913 (excepting some wartime circumstances). We've come a long way, baby. ? For myself? I'd love to pay 25% all in. I have a complicated situation in that I am technically retired, but do have self-employment income. Let's just say there has been many a time where I've thought, "WTH am I doing this!?" for the amount of cash I actually take home. the GI Bill meant people went to university for real courses, no debt, and got a real job when they got out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 29 minutes ago, row_33 said: the GI Bill meant people went to university for real courses, no debt, and got a real job when they got out. I used mine at night school while I mastered my trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, The_Dude said: How much should a man be taxed? I’ve been asking myself that a lot lately. How much is a patriotic sacrifice and at what point does it turn into tyrannical oppression? Because I’m at 25%. Think about it — if a man labors for 40 years he’ll have sacrificed 10 years of his labor to society to pay for roads, schools, and the military. That’s a lot to ask of a man, isn’t it? I think so. But I’m not paying $.25 on the dollar....I’m payin a lot more and I can’t help but ask myself ‘What Would Jefferson do?’ So, what do you think? At what point do taxes become oppressive and are we currently there? 25% to pay for what the federal government does is a pretty sweet deal and hardly tyrannical. The largest Military on the planet, infrastructure, Space exploration, National Parks, Disaster relief, Healthcare for the elderly, Social Security, and so much else. Granted as you said you are not paying 25% but if you seriously think that living in a modern society with all those programs and earned benefits isn't worth a significant portion of your labor then you have an odd definition of tyranny. There is always a debate about how much is too much but the framing of your argument is a bit silly. My biggest issue with an ideology of libertarians is two-fold. 1- Libertarians place the same blind faith in free markets that socialists and communists place in the government. 2- Libertarians ignore the fact that most rules, regulations, and programs exist in response to the failings of the free market. Are there examples of government overreach and regulatory capture? Yes, that's why socialists and communists are stupid to think that the answer is always more government. But on the other end, the reason things like Environmental regulations exist is because the free market and private enterprise didn't give a !@#$ about pollution. Every time we roll back environmental regulations we eventually hear that the companies lower their standards and bad things happen. If the free market was the answer to the Environment then there wouldn't be instances of lower regulations leading to bigger problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, The_Dude said: How much should a man be taxed? I’ve been asking myself that a lot lately. How much is a patriotic sacrifice and at what point does it turn into tyrannical oppression? Because I’m at 25%. Think about it — if a man labors for 40 years he’ll have sacrificed 10 years of his labor to society to pay for roads, schools, and the military. That’s a lot to ask of a man, isn’t it? I think so. But I’m not paying $.25 on the dollar....I’m payin a lot more and I can’t help but ask myself ‘What Would Jefferson do?’ So, what do you think? At what point do taxes become oppressive and are we currently there? The tears of the oppressed...your are not "sacrificing" anything - last time I checked you "using" the roads, the schools, the police, the military, your food is safe, at some point you will receive Medicare and social security... Thanks for you "sacrifice".... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) When the benefits outweigh the costs. Capitalism is about exchanging goods and services that benefit both parties. Whenever one side is hurt in a transaction, it's tyranny. 57 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: My biggest issue with an ideology of libertarians is two-fold. 1- Libertarians place the same blind faith in free markets that socialists and communists place in the government. 2- Libertarians ignore the fact that most rules, regulations, and programs exist in response to the failings of the free market. Pure capitalism has no failings. People just have an issue with true fairness. Every single rule, regulation and program creates an economic inefficiency to promote an ideology (basic economics!). What makes it seem "wrong" is that everyone has an ideology, so what you perceive as a "failing" is actually just a circumstance that is opposed to your personal worldview. What you think of as a "correction" to the free market, another will mark as "tyranny." What gets us in trouble is that everyone has a different path they want to take their community. Here's the thing, no one wants to live under pure capitalism because it's barbarically fair. Edited June 8, 2018 by unbillievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Under two circumstances: 1) When the taxes are not voluntary. (consumption taxes are the only just form of taxation, as the citizen determines his own rate of taxation on the micro level) 2) When the taxes are used to spend on services which do not have a shared group utility. (programs targeted to advantage certain individuals or groups at the expense of another or others) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, baskin said: The tears of the oppressed...your are not "sacrificing" anything - last time I checked you "using" the roads, the schools, the police, the military, your food is safe, at some point you will receive Medicare and social security... Thanks for you "sacrifice".... Don't listen to us, listen to this libertarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 29 minutes ago, unbillievable said: When the benefits outweigh the costs. Capitalism is about exchanging goods and services that benefit both parties. Whenever one side is hurt in a transaction, it's tyranny. Pure capitalism has no failings. People just have an issue with true fairness. Every single rule, regulation and program creates an economic inefficiency to promote an ideology (basic economics!). What makes it seem "wrong" is that everyone has an ideology, so what you perceive as a "failing" is actually just a circumstance that is opposed to your personal worldview. What you think of as a "correction" to the free market, another will mark as "tyranny." What gets us in trouble is that everyone has a different path they want to take their community. Here's the thing, no one wants to live under pure capitalism because it's barbarically fair. Pure capitalism failings are a rapid deterioration of inequality that leads to a massive underclass of people who feel that they have nothing to lose so it ends up creating a deterioration of society. Pure Capitalism is insanely zero sum which has a chance to create the conditions for massive revolutions to occur. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Pure capitalism failings are a rapid deterioration of inequality that leads to a massive underclass of people who feel that they have nothing to lose so it ends up creating a deterioration of society. Pure Capitalism is insanely zero sum which has a chance to create the conditions for massive revolutions to occur. That is untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said: Used to be worse. 90% under the Eisenhower years for the top rate. FDR wanted 100% tax rate on anyone making over $25K back in '43. Just think, there wasn't really an income tax until 1913 (excepting some wartime circumstances). We've come a long way, baby. ? For myself? I'd love to pay 25% all in. I have a complicated situation in that I am technically retired, but do have self-employment income. Let's just say there has been many a time where I've thought, "WTH am I doing this!?" for the amount of cash I actually take home. But we had a big middle class back then. Now the rich just take all the money and the country has a huge debt. Tax the rich! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: That is untrue. How so? Unfettered capitalism encourages strong concentrations of wealth to a small number of people Employers broke unions through force, forced children into the labor market, abused employees all to the end of saving money. The Book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair is the result of unfettered capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Pure capitalism failings are a rapid deterioration of inequality that leads to a massive underclass of people who feel that they have nothing to lose so it ends up creating a deterioration of society. Pure Capitalism is insanely zero sum which has a chance to create the conditions for massive revolutions to occur. So your problem is economic inequality, which probably means your ideology is Socialism. The deterioration isn't caused by Capitalism, but by people who's ideology opposes the fair distribution that the free market imposes. The same revolution occurs under socialism when the earners fight against the confiscation of their wages for redistribution. Free people aren't equal. Equal people aren't free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, baskin said: The tears of the oppressed...your are not "sacrificing" anything - last time I checked you "using" the roads, the schools, the police, the military, your food is safe, at some point you will receive Medicare and social security... Thanks for you "sacrifice".... Well !@#$ it then. Let’s jack up my tax rate to 90% since I drive on the roads. Yes, let’s! Clearly you’re better suited than I am to spend my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: How so? Unfettered capitalism encourages strong concentrations of wealth to a small number of people Employers broke unions through force, forced children into the labor market, abused employees all to the end of saving money. The Book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair is the result of unfettered capitalism. Yup, Rockefeller was no free marketer, he worked his whole life to consolidate and destroy competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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