how is Josh Allen doing so far?

[BB@Shooter]

On 6/8/2018 at 4:58 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

FIFY

 

Said reports are out there.  But if you believe they're not, it might hinder your ability to find them

 

Example from this week's press access day:

Peterman on fire

Nathan Peterman took the bulk of the reps with the first-team offense on Thursday and thrived in doing so. He completed 17 of his 21 passes during team drills and looked particularly impressive during the two-minute drill portion of practice. Three of his completions went to Brandon Reilly on Thursday and another three went to Jeremy Kerley. Peterman seemed to be much more decisive with the football than we've seen him in the past. 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/06/36557332563730/10_observations_from_week_3_of.html#incart_river_index

 

Example from last week's press access day:

AJ McCarron has been the most consistent QB for the Bills

McCarron is received the majority of the first-team reps for the Bills this week, followed by Nathan Peterman and Josh Allen. (It was Peterman first last week.) He was consistent in the two-minute drill, and though it didn't end up in a touchdown he led the team into the red zone.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/6/1/17416554/buffalo-bills-ota-recap-from-thursday-practice-josh-allen-tremaine-edmunds-kyle-williams-may-31

First off, don't change my quote to fit what you want to say. It is complete bull. I read the same meaningless crap you read. But I didn't read into it what you did because I don't crawl up a reporters butt and believe any slanted version they are selling.

 

Now run Peterman and McCarron with the threes and see if their stats will look as good. See if their receivers are making them look good with their experience and talent. In case you didn't know, veterans could help settle Allen down if he needed it. You also don't know from reading the little bit we both read, if they are running check downs or throwing to wide open receivers to get their stats to look good.  In fact, from reading these blurbs and not seeing anything in person, you actually know very little, only what the writer wants you to know. So until you can honestly compare all three fairly, you are guessing. And I guarantee Allen will extend plays like Elway did , giving him one more edge to go along with his ability to throw in tight spaces, throw it on a rope to receivers, and throw it over the defense. All the while using his legs to get valuable yards. Allens athleticism will start showing up even more once the pads go on. He has more tools to move the ball down the field than the other two. Just like your words, and opinion, we all have to wait and see. You and all these so called reporters are nothing more than people throwing out their opinions, but you all think people should hang their hat on them. I for one do not.   Stats are for sissies.  Or can't I say sissies on here? Will this also get moderated off of here?

Edited June 10, 2018 by BB@Shooter

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

On 6/8/2018 at 2:13 PM, BB@Shooter said:

Exactly.  How come we  I get no detailed report on any of the other qbs?

 

On 6/8/2018 at 5:58 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

FIFY

 

BB@shooter, this is a standard forum practice used in response - to line out someone's text and replace it with a different word (so everyone can see it's not the original poster's words).  FIFY= "Fixed it for you"   You'll see that a lot here, and unless it's done to insult, it's allowed.

 

I am saying you complain "we" get no detailed reports of other QB, but it must be "I" (you) who don't, since I was able to quickly find two at about the same level of detail as our reports on Allen.

 

On 6/8/2018 at 5:58 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Said reports are out there.  But if you believe they're not, it might hinder your ability to find them

Example from this week's press access day:

Peterman on fire

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/06/36557332563730/10_observations_from_week_3_of.html#incart_river_index

 

Example from last week's press access day:

AJ McCarron has been the most consistent QB for the Bills

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/6/1/17416554/buffalo-bills-ota-recap-from-thursday-practice-josh-allen-tremaine-edmunds-kyle-williams-may-31

 

Here's the problem.  You made a point.  I addressed it by showing such reports are out there, you were mistaken.  Instead of acknowledging that, you're all addressing points you didn't make nor I address originally.  That doesn't allow good discussion - make a different point if you like, but acknowledge the response to your point first.

 

6 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

First off, don't change my quote to fit what you want to say. It is complete bull. I read the same meaningless crap you read. But I didn't read into it what you did because I don't believe any slanted version they are selling.

 

The reports I linked said that Peterman was on fire and McCarron has been consistent.  It may be meaningless, because all reports out of OTAs get read like tea-leaves but probably don't mean too much.  But the point is, you said we don't get detailed reports on other QB and in fact, we do.

 

6 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

Now run Peterman and McCarron with the threes and see if their stats will look as good. See if their receivers are making them look good with their experience and talent. In case you didn't know, veterans could help settle Allen down if he needed it. You also don't know from reading the little bit we both read, if they are running check downs or throwing to wide open receivers to get their stats to look good.  In fact, from reading these blurbs and not seeing anything in person, you actually know very little, only what the writer wants you to know. So until you can honestly compare all three fairly, you are guessing.

 

You make a number of very good points here, but the way you make them is what's called a "straw man" - you are writing as though the person you are responding to, me, has argued these things ("in case you didn't know" ).  In fact, I have not made any of these arguments. 

 

My only point here was, you claimed we don't get detailed reports on the other QB, but in fact, they are out there just as the reports on Allen are.

 

If I were arguing these points, I'd say that just as Allen isn't throwing to better WR, he's also not throwing AGAINST better defenders.  So there's a bit of a "wash" there.  He might look better running with the 1's - or he might be looking much worse against DB that are less likely to be fooled and more likely to react correctly to his play. 

 

In other places, reporters have provided detailed assessment of the kind of throws each QB is making.  In OTA's it's unlikely the QB are allowed to "check down" to make their stats look good, they would be dinged more in the eyes of the coaches for failing to recognize and implement the designated primary and secondary read if open (if not open, another story).

 

But overall, yes, OTAs are relatively meaningless and the brief press blurbs on each QB aren't enough to make a meaningful assessment.  We should get more info next week in Minicamp which is open to the press each day.

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Interesting.  I often interpret 'FIFY' as 'F*** It F*** You'.

 

Perception is a funny thing.

[Jay_Fixit]

9 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

***I am biased***  but being as objective as I can be here....

 

1.  I don't want to lose site of the actual thread topic.  This is a Josh Allen thread and about how he is doing.  The reports coming out all match up with his scouting report.  He has an incredible arm.  He is mobile.  He looks the part, and he is missing some throws.  He is behind the others learning the playbook because the others have been here longer but he is catching up....high wonderlic score would indicate he can learn fast.  This is ALL as advertised.....and he needs to SIT.  I've done some analysis of QB's who started in the super bowl over the past 20 years and I looked at the first 16 games each of them started.  The data in this case shows that sitting did not matter.  A guy who sat 3 years had the same QB rating as the guy who started from day one over the course of the their first 16 games.  It suggests that a super bowl starting caliber QB is going to be good wether he sits or not....and that the first 16 games of on field experiecne matter more than anything else.  ......in the case of Allen, I would say he is one of the few who WOULD BENEFIT from sitting.  His low completion pct playing at a small school, and the notion that he had a poor line and had to move around a lot suggests his reps in college were not very productive reps....in that he was often repeating plays where he had to run around etc and throw to less than decent targets....he isn't at a point where he would benefit by getting on an NFL field until he's had a TON of reps, in practice, with NFL level coaching, getting him prepared for the speed of the game, getting him used to the idea that he'll need to trust a pocket will be there and make reads to guys moving a lot faster.  He needs to sit at least a year for all of this to take hold.  Against the data, in this case...the exception is Josh Allen...there has never been such an obvious case for completely ruling a guy out of any plans to start for at least a year than this case with Allen.  For the benefit of your team and your future....root for him to SIT.

 

2.  Again...I am biased....and trying to be objective as I can....Mahomes is going to be a generational talent...you'll see it soon enough.  If you draw your opinions on box scores, you are missing A LOT.  Mahomes did have identifiable issues with his footwork, and he did make some glaringly poor throws in college.  It's why he didn't go first overall...he needed some work.  He got work.  .....I can post a ton on this etc...but this is a Bills forum...I understand where I am here....I hope Allen works out for the Bills...I am looking forward to seing how it plays out in time.  Lots of new QB talent coming into the leauge this past coupole seasons...very exciting times.

 

3.  If nothing else....let Peterman or McCaron take the beating for the first 8 games at least.  If you are honest about where the Bills roster is at this time, it isn't that great.  Especially on offense.  Let the kid sit...let the lesser guys take the pounding, and the wrath of the fans and media....then when he does get put into game action later on...the season will long be over, the team and fans will be ready to look at the remaining games to see what Allen can do and how he progresses...instead of looking at him as the guy who is going to save the franchise right now (he isn't ready!)  SIT. SIT. SIT.  Patience....and more paitience.  Keep your shiny toy in the box for a while....

Mahomes will be a disaster.

[TigerJ]

10 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

***I am biased***  but being as objective as I can be here....

 

1.  I don't want to lose site of the actual thread topic.  This is a Josh Allen thread and about how he is doing.  The reports coming out all match up with his scouting report.  He has an incredible arm.  He is mobile.  He looks the part, and he is missing some throws.  He is behind the others learning the playbook because the others have been here longer but he is catching up....high wonderlic score would indicate he can learn fast.  This is ALL as advertised.....and he needs to SIT.  I've done some analysis of QB's who started in the super bowl over the past 20 years and I looked at the first 16 games each of them started.  The data in this case shows that sitting did not matter.  A guy who sat 3 years had the same QB rating as the guy who started from day one over the course of the their first 16 games.  It suggests that a super bowl starting caliber QB is going to be good wether he sits or not....and that the first 16 games of on field experiecne matter more than anything else.  ......in the case of Allen, I would say he is one of the few who WOULD BENEFIT from sitting.  His low completion pct playing at a small school, and the notion that he had a poor line and had to move around a lot suggests his reps in college were not very productive reps....in that he was often repeating plays where he had to run around etc and throw to less than decent targets....he isn't at a point where he would benefit by getting on an NFL field until he's had a TON of reps, in practice, with NFL level coaching, getting him prepared for the speed of the game, getting him used to the idea that he'll need to trust a pocket will be there and make reads to guys moving a lot faster.  He needs to sit at least a year for all of this to take hold.  Against the data, in this case...the exception is Josh Allen...there has never been such an obvious case for completely ruling a guy out of any plans to start for at least a year than this case with Allen.  For the benefit of your team and your future....root for him to SIT.

 

2.  Again...I am biased....and trying to be objective as I can....Mahomes is going to be a generational talent...you'll see it soon enough.  If you draw your opinions on box scores, you are missing A LOT.  Mahomes did have identifiable issues with his footwork, and he did make some glaringly poor throws in college.  It's why he didn't go first overall...he needed some work.  He got work.  .....I can post a ton on this etc...but this is a Bills forum...I understand where I am here....I hope Allen works out for the Bills...I am looking forward to seing how it plays out in time.  Lots of new QB talent coming into the leauge this past coupole seasons...very exciting times.

 

3.  If nothing else....let Peterman or McCaron take the beating for the first 8 games at least.  If you are honest about where the Bills roster is at this time, it isn't that great.  Especially on offense.  Let the kid sit...let the lesser guys take the pounding, and the wrath of the fans and media....then when he does get put into game action later on...the season will long be over, the team and fans will be ready to look at the remaining games to see what Allen can do and how he progresses...instead of looking at him as the guy who is going to save the franchise right now (he isn't ready!)  SIT. SIT. SIT.  Patience....and more paitience.  Keep your shiny toy in the box for a while....

I'm pretty much in agreement with this.  I'm not in any hurry to start Allen.  However, I'm willing to have my mind changed by training camp and preseason performances.  I'm not sure about Mahomes, but he's not a Buffalo Bills, so I really don't care.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

10 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Let’s wait for Mahomes to do something first...i got nothing against the guy and I’ll be the first to acknowledge if he is a “generational talent” but at the moment I’m thinking that the Chiefs should have taken Watson instead..

 

Like they should have taken Kelly or Marino back in 1983... (ouch)..

 

.......maybe we could do the same for Allen.....but of course Mahones' body of work is FAR more substantial to judge him on (YAWN).......problem for some of the TBD Gang is that Allen is a Bill......SMH...

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Interesting.  I often interpret 'FIFY' as 'F*** It F*** You'.

 

Perception is a funny thing.

 

Hmmm, that would be bad! 

Maybe I'm showing my age.  When I started on bulletin boards, the f-bomb was not so much assumed.

 

Indeed, perception is a funny thing.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hmmm, that would be bad! 

Maybe I'm showing my age.  When I started on bulletin boards, the f-bomb was not so much assumed.

 

Indeed, perception is a funny thing.

38 years working in a blue collar environment of roughnecks, roustabouts and miscreants probably has contributed to my coarse nature. I have been able to keep from using the f-bomb as an all too familiar adjective.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

***I am biased***  but being as objective as I can be here....

1.  I don't want to lose site of the actual thread topic.  This is a Josh Allen thread and about how he is doing.  The reports coming out all match up with his scouting report.  He has an incredible arm.  He is mobile.  He looks the part, and he is missing some throws.  He is behind the others learning the playbook because the others have been here longer but he is catching up....high wonderlic score would indicate he can learn fast.  This is ALL as advertised.....and he needs to SIT.  I've done some analysis of QB's who started in the super bowl over the past 20 years and I looked at the first 16 games each of them started.  The data in this case shows that sitting did not matter.  A guy who sat 3 years had the same QB rating as the guy who started from day one over the course of the their first 16 games.  It suggests that a super bowl starting caliber QB is going to be good wether he sits or not....and that the first 16 games of on field experiecne matter more than anything else.  ......in the case of Allen, I would say he is one of the few who WOULD BENEFIT from sitting.  His low completion pct playing at a small school, and the notion that he had a poor line and had to move around a lot suggests his reps in college were not very productive reps....in that he was often repeating plays where he had to run around etc and throw to less than decent targets....he isn't at a point where he would benefit by getting on an NFL field until he's had a TON of reps, in practice, with NFL level coaching, getting him prepared for the speed of the game, getting him used to the idea that he'll need to trust a pocket will be there and make reads to guys moving a lot faster.  He needs to sit at least a year for all of this to take hold.  Against the data, in this case...the exception is Josh Allen...there has never been such an obvious case for completely ruling a guy out of any plans to start for at least a year than this case with Allen.  For the benefit of your team and your future....root for him to SIT.

 

I'd like to drill into this a little bit because I'm not sure I understand your analysis.  It sounds as though you're saying it doesn't matter if a guy sits, but then saying Allen should sit.

Which doesn't make sense, and you seem like a sensible guy, so perhaps could you reiterate your analysis or link the post where you did it?

 

I personally agree that Allen should sit for a year, be sure he has a thorough understanding of the playbook and the game and what he'll actually see from NFL defenses by game film and VR analysis (I hope the Bills are using this), and also have a chance to refine and solidify changes to his mechanics before he goes into "live action"

 

Quote

2.  Again...I am biased....and trying to be objective as I can....Mahomes is going to be a generational talent...you'll see it soon enough...

 

I wish nothing ill for the Chiefs, unless they're playing the Bills LOL - they're currently the only NFL team in my state after all!  BUT, I'd wait until Mahomes has done something to proclaim him a generational talent, myself....for the Chiefs sake, I hope they're right Mahomes can play in the NFL since they did trade away a very competent NFL-quality QB - but "Baby steps man", let him play a few games first

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

On June 8, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that was the viewpoint our late unlamented GM Buddy Nix held.   The result was reluctance to pull the trigger and "reach for" or "overvalue" a QB.

 

With the decrease of pro-readiness in college QB due to the change in college offenses and the increase in the importance of the QB position, I no longer think it's true.

Buddy died ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, BUNCH OF MULARKEY said:

Buddy died ?

 

??

[Johnny Hammersticks]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

??

 

The way famous people are dropping like flies this week, maybe he knows something that we do not ?‍♂️??

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

The way famous people are dropping like flies this week, maybe he knows something that we do not ?‍♂️??

 

I had a good hunt.  There is an obit for a "Buddy Nix" out there but he's too young to be our guy

[mileena]

On 6/7/2018 at 4:24 PM, machine gun kelly said:

From what I hear from Sal and Vic, it sounds like they are bringing along slowly with the 3rds.  I agree with their decision to take it slow with hm and get as many reps for AJ as possible as he’s definitely the starting guy week 1.  Josh needs time to develop.  He will learn the system slowly and when he’s finally ready, I trust McD and Daboll will get him in with the 1’s.  

 

Just remember what happened to the older Carr who was killed when the Texans who put him out there week1.  I know they had to as an expansion team, but it ruined him he was sacked so many times.

 

i don’t care if we see him at all this year, but if the experts think he is ready, they know when to put him in there.

 

Look what starting him in Week 1 did to EJ Manuel.

On 6/7/2018 at 6:10 PM, Boca BIlls said:

He is ahead of every other QB drafted right now.

Rodgers would have had the same success even if he started day one.

 

And you know this how?

On 6/7/2018 at 7:50 PM, Zerovotlz said:

My 2 cents on this.

 

Before the draft, NO ONE anywhere was saying Josh Allen would be a day one NFL starter.  If ever there was a guy who needed to "sit and learn" it is Josh Allen.  Allen is the same guy today he was before the draft..a physical specimen with a powerful arm....who has CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE flaws that need to be addressed before he would be considered ready to get onto an NFL field.  

 

Allen is at MINIMUM a one year bench project and probably should be brought along even more slowly than that given what he is at this point.  For comparison, look no further than Paxton Lynch.  Go read his scouting reports pre draft a couple years ago..he was a "2-3 year project" with great size and arm who played in a spread BLA BLA BLA.  They knew he was a project when they took him....and they got impatient and have given up on him already out there.  I can't say it's justified to have given up or not, but it's a little unfair to call a "2-3 year project" a bust when you haven't given him 2-3 years EVERYONE though it would take to develope the guy.  This is the danger with Allen.  It is VERY HARD for a coaching staff to survive at 2-3 year development QB and see it though to where it pays off.  If NOTHING ELSE, then ending the playoff drought last season might have bought your staff enough credibility and time to see it through....but that won't matter if the team is losing while waiting for Allen to be ready and the fans quit showing up...ownership will be tempted to compell the coaches to get the kid on the field NOW, or fire the coaches to placate the impatient fans.  It's going to be a rough go.  ....and after the time has been put in...you better get some results that show he is the QB to lead the team or a housecleaning comes and this all starts over again.

 

One other note....as much as I love Mahomes...and I think he could have started and done fairly well last season, KC had a pretty unique situation being able to sit the kid, work on his issues, while fielding a division winning team with a really good QB onboard already.  Whole lot easier for even me, to wait while Smith was still leading a good football team.  

 

Buffalo has a really rough schedule to start the year off.  Let AJ take that beating..take the negative press, ....Allen needs work and reps...for at least a whole year....I'm normally of the shcool of thought that if a QB is going to be good, then he will be good wether he sits or not. ...this would be an exception.  You drafted a KNOWN project...now let him go through "THE PROCESS" of being a project.  If it is going to pay off at all, it has to be this way.

 

Jared Goff and Carson Wentz disagree with you.

[mileena]

On 6/8/2018 at 9:33 AM, HappyDays said:

 

You're trolling, right? Aaron Rodgers would have been a home run pick at #1 overall. Most rookies don't start game one these days. I'll assume you're joking.

 

But he wasn't drafted in the top 10, was he?

On 6/8/2018 at 9:40 AM, billsfan89 said:

 

Eli Manning wrong pick, Phillip Rivers wrong pick, Carson Palmer wrong pick, Jared Goff wrong pick, and there are many other examples of QB's not playing right away that went on to be uber successful in the NFL. In fact there is evidence that sitting a QB for most of their rookie year is the best way to go. This has to be trolling. 

 

Carson Wentz begs to differ with you.

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I had a good hunt.  There is an obit for a "Buddy Nix" out there but he's too young to be our guy

 

I think you maybe posted “our late unlamented GM Buddy”, and maybe meant former?  I think he got the impression from you without verifying. 

[mileena]

On 6/8/2018 at 11:24 AM, musichunch said:

Looking at the offense, this team is currently built for McCarron or Peterman to be the starting QB. They need to draft or sign some elite speedsters when Allen is ready to start. Kerley and Streater aren't close to enough. 

 

And what's wrong with Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones??

On 6/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Klaista2k said:

Sounds like he's been missing a lot of throws that he need to make.

 

Hate to say it but he's probably gonna bust. 

 

I'd rather have a QB miss long than miss short. Plus Jared Goff has the exact same inaccuracy issues. Look how is doing, despite that.

Edited June 10, 2018 by mileena

[Augie]

 

 

I came in late...just a guess. 

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Interesting.  I often interpret 'FIFY' as 'F*** It F*** You'.

 

Perception is a funny thing.

I honestly never knew what it meant. and i have already forgotten.
senility has it's upside.

 

But i do enjoy the conversation just the same

[mileena]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I had a good hunt.  There is an obit for a "Buddy Nix" out there but he's too young to be our guy

 

You said earlier he had died in your post when you said "our late unlamented GM Buddy Nix". I was in shock too when I read this. "Late" means "deceased".