Tyrod Taylor: I still feel that I’d done more than enough to stay

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Foxx said:

spinners being potentailly spun. 

overzealous zeal.

watching with interest these days.

 

Not quite a haiku.

[BuffaloHokie13]

14 hours ago, MURPHD6 said:

If you want a reasonable expectation for quality of qb play you have to compare his performances to every qb who played. You cant just isolate 44 TT games and form an opinion based on QBs you think are better. You have to consider the entire sample of NFL QB play over the same period to have any boderline reliable idea of what is above or below average. Otherwise you are  just cherry picking numbers to assert your opinions.

[BringBackOrton]

24 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

While I enjoy your independent rankings, I quibble with Winston being less than TT.

 

I also think that snapshots miss trends, which matter.

 

JMO.

Edited June 5, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I firmly believe the search for the new QB began not even then but at draft time before that when they started accumulating picks....Tyrod was simply a place holder while McD and Beane evaluated their roster.....knowing that this last draft was the QB draft to pluck one from.

 

Tyrod was on borrowed time....even the most stanch supporters of his had to know this.

 

Agree

[BuffaloHokie13]

18 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

While I enjoy your independent rankings, I quibble with Winston being less than TT.

 

I also think that snapshots miss trends, which matter.

 

JMO.

I can help a little with that.

 

2015:

2016:

2017:

 

As for Winston, I'm not trading 12 TDs for 39 TOs.

[BringBackOrton]

So TT sunk down the list.  Makes sense to me.  Meanwhile Jameis hung around 18-19.

 

Thanks.

Edited June 5, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I can help a little with that.

 

2015:

2016:

2017:

 

As for Winston, I'm not trading 12 TDs for 39 TOs.

 

Now here is a Stats-Meister!

[3rdand12]

On 6/4/2018 at 6:00 PM, John from Riverside said:

Im sure it is...they throw it in there with you know actually WINNING.

 

There are also lots of passing yards thrown by QBs.....in losses.

 

My point here is there are other things that are real things you can bash Tyrod over and be legit.....but passing yards on a team that runs the ball a ton?  

 

 

He simply wasnt a franchise QB....he could not put the team on his shoulders....and he didnt improve even though he was given years to do it.

 

I still say he was not a "sucky" qb......just not what we needed if we wanted to be a real playoff team.

He is a different animal. Some of his run plays were just incredible and thrilling !
But the Offense would need to be designed around Him for any hope of success further than a playoff berth.
 

When you get a franchise QB life becomes sooo much easier for everyone on the Team. Especially Coaches.

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, grb said:

So much babbling, but it's really not that complicated :

• 2015 : Taylor was on a team with a good (not great) offensive cast. He was a little raw but played well, with a passer rating ranked 7th in the NFL, an average of 8yds an attempt, low interception rate, excellent deep ball, and over 500yds on the ground. If you look at Taylor's games when he actually had Watkins and Woods playing, his numbers become stellar : 63.6% comp. 8.25 ypa 27 td passes. 6 ints in fifteen games over two years. That's his ceiling with good (not elite) offense support coupled with a mediocre to bad defense. People come up with their loonnngggggg lists of TT's crippling flaws, but somehow never explain the simplest of facts : When the Bills put a decent level of talent on the field with Taylor, he played well.
• 2016/2017 : Each successive year the Bills gave Taylor less to work with. Granted, much of it was injuries; but some was front office priorities. Taylor's passing rating reduced to 17th/18th with one of the worse receiver situations in the league, no deep threat, spotty (at best) pass protection, and a running game which declined from '16 to '17. Given that mess, isn't it amazing the worst quarterback in the entire history of the universe only fell to the middle of the pack? That apparently is his floor. The two QBs immediately under Taylor's rating last season were Matt Ryan and Jameis Winston. Imagine what Taylor could do with the weapons either of them have, huh?

 

I am delighted to read someone that noticed what his timeline really looked like in Buffalo.
Coaching changes and losing his trusted receivers was significant. Environment does matter , no question in my mind.

 Recall when Tyrod actually just started chucking the ball at Sammy ? And Sammy would catch most any of it ? That was fun as heck. 

  Tyrod got began trending down quickly after that season and last year he appeared a bit lost. no confidence no trust.
I am not defending him. just reminding folks as  grb has so eloquently done. context matters when reviewing seasons past.

6 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

good post

 

7 hours ago, The Red King said:

 

It doesn't matter what receivers he would have had if he never threw to them.  He didn't have the best receivers last season, true, but even when they did get open he'd often still fail to throw it.  Unless his receiver was 100% open, in the clear, he wouldn't throw to them.  It's a fear/limitation I hope he overcomes in his time with Cleveland, as that fear played a large part in his ineffectiveness last season.

He threw to Benjamin in the End Zone for what would have been a TD. It was the right throw. Till Benjamin needlessly and blatantly pushed off.

I hate him for that BS. But Tyrod did not run , he could have, and waited for the play to open up. and it did. he threw the ball slightly behind into the safe smart spot. KB overran his spot and knew it. Tried to use leverage to get back.
 Tyrod did take a shot to win that game for us.

Edited June 5, 2018 by 3rdand12

[xxxxxxxx]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Statistically, this is not quite right.  The basic idea that we need statistical context is correect.  But it certainly isn't necessary to compare TT's performances to "every QB who played" during that time period.  For example, one can simply look at the average or median performance and then perhaps look the range of game stats for a couple above-average QB and a couple QB who fall near the mean, to get an idea of where Taylor's performance slots in.

 

The idea of comparison as integral to statistical analysis is correct, but so is the idea of 'representative sample'.

 That is true. There are quibbles about what is representative and what is not, though most stat folk will agree with what the OP is saying .And Taylors performance ranking is quite different based upon whom you chose to include in the comparison. You can compare Taylor to every QB who has a starting job in the league, which is what alot of people do, or compare him to every QB that made a start or an appearance in a game. And that difference matters if your going to try to determine whether he's above or below average or not.

And to deserve to keep a starting job you don't even have to be an average or  above average QB, you just have to be better than all of the backups. I know that is a low bar for most, and its why Im ok with the organization moving on.

 

And I do apologise for the language. I really hate it when people use shoddy stat work to justify  opinions, or what is often described as lying with stats, especially when those folk are being arrogant with someone who is trying to actually teach them something.

Edited June 5, 2018 by MURPHD6

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

At the risk of what I say being "spun" here, I think the fundamental paradox some of us see is we think TT, properly supported, has a shot to exceed the likely output of AJ McCarron - he didn't play "well enough" to be seen as the franchise guy or long term answer, no, but he might have played well enough to exceed McCarron's offensive output (passing + run threat). In which case it's a fair question to ask "why not keep TT another year then?". 

 

I think Gunner pretty well nailed it - we didn't want the "locker room baggage" that comes with maneuvering a rookie into the starting lineup in the face of an entrenched starter, and we possibly wanted a guy who was more of a pocket passer as a mentor/example for Allen.

The Bills now have 3 QB’s in the roster that the FO “hopes” can run the offense they want to install and not have to deal with “two” separate styles, one of a pocket passer and that of the sandlot variety.   

 

Which equates to what you pasted WRT gunners comments.  

 

Also what McDermott has been saying.  Steel sharpens steel.  

 

[xxxxxxxx]

5 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

While I enjoy your independent rankings, I quibble with Winston being less than TT.

 

I also think that snapshots miss trends, which matter.

 

JMO.

No 1 WR for Taylor for most of 2017. But with that added context its not unreasonable to assume that his numbers will bounce back in Cleveland. 

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

No 1 WR for Taylor for most of 2017. But with that added context its not unreasonable to assume that his numbers will bounce back in Cleveland. 

Taylor will be lucky to make it to week 8.

[3rdand12]

59 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

The Bills now have 3 QB’s in the roster that the FO “hopes” can run the offense they want to install and not have to deal with “two” separate styles, one of a pocket passer and that of the sandlot variety.   

 

Which equates to what you pasted WRT gunners comments.  

 

Also what McDermott has been saying.  Steel sharpens steel.  

 

I had mentioned that bringing in McCarron unifies the O play design/calling et al. down to blocking of course.
settles the room and levels  the table for how they develop the Offense to some degree. Tyrod is an outlier. make what you will of that.

16 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

No 1 WR for Taylor for most of 2017. But with that added context its not unreasonable to assume that his numbers will bounce back in Cleveland. 

hell of a Ball  Catcher group in Cleveland actually by now.

[twoandfourteen]

9 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I'll agree with you on the high-end backup QB part.  But great human beings don't whip out the race card.

 

I'll admit I was really disappointed when that article came out in the Buffalo News, too. It's not like he had been lighting the world on fire and people were calling for him to be replaced. 

 

However, outside of that he's been a model for how a professional athlete should carry himself and represent his city. Had the on-field production been there, he would have been a perfect face of the franchise.

[twoandfourteen]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Statistically, this is not quite right.  The basic idea that we need statistical context is correect.  But it certainly isn't necessary to compare TT's performances to "every QB who played" during that time period.  For example, one can simply look at the average or median performance and then perhaps look the range of game stats for a couple above-average QB and a couple QB who fall near the mean, to get an idea of where Taylor's performance slots in.

 

The idea of comparison as integral to statistical analysis is correct, but so is the idea of 'representative sample'.

 

You explained this one far better than I could have. Nice post. 

3 hours ago, MURPHD6 said:

 That is true. There are quibbles about what is representative and what is not, though most stat folk will agree with what the OP is saying .And Taylors performance ranking is quite different based upon whom you chose to include in the comparison. You can compare Taylor to every QB who has a starting job in the league, which is what alot of people do, or compare him to every QB that made a start or an appearance in a game. And that difference matters if your going to try to determine whether he's above or below average or not.

And to deserve to keep a starting job you don't even have to be an average or  above average QB, you just have to be better than all of the backups. I know that is a low bar for most, and its why Im ok with the organization moving on.

 

And I do apologise for the language. I really hate it when people use shoddy stat work to justify  opinions, or what is often described as lying with stats, especially when those folk are being arrogant with someone who is trying to actually teach them something.

 

Do carry on, Professor. 

 

 

[billsfan89]

Tyrod was a starting caliber QB in the NFL, There aren't 32 QB's I would rather trot out than Tyrod. I think you can make an argument there are much more than 20 QB's one would take over Tyrod. But Tyrod is also not a top 16 QB, I think it would be a hard argument to say Tyrod is a top 20 QB. Tyrod was also on a very friendly deal. The Browns offered up a low-end premium draft pick for him and the Bills took good value for him. 

 

The Bills wanted a longer-term answer at QB and The Browns needed someone that could play well in front of a rookie for a year. The Browns were willing to spend the 65th pick in order to get competent QB play to avoid having to force in their top draft pick. The Bills got a good pick for a QB that wasn't going to be here past 2018, the Browns got a solid QB that gives them the luxery to not have to start a rookie. 

 

Both teams won, the trade isn't a reflection of how bad Tyrod is more so two teams needs lining up. 

[xxxxxxxx]

1 hour ago, twoandfourteen said:

 

You explained this one far better than I could have. Nice post. 

 

Do carry on, Professor. 

 

 

Your remarks have been proven wrong by more than one poster, and you are the one who started criticizing me BTW. I never wanted to discuss this topic with you, all I did was respond to your criticisms.

 

I apologise to other folk who think I may have responsed harshly, but I was already warned about your maturity level from others, and they were clearly correct. 

 

A post like the one above displays no interest in advancing conversation, its just trying to upset someone who disagreed with you. Someone who you picked a fight with, initially.

Edited June 6, 2018 by MURPHD6

[xxxxxxxx]

5 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

I had mentioned that bringing in McCarron unifies the O play design/calling et al. down to blocking of course.
settles the room and levels  the table for how they develop the Offense to some degree. Tyrod is an outlier. make what you will of that.

hell of a Ball  Catcher group in Cleveland actually by now.

 

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Tyrod was a starting caliber QB in the NFL, There aren't 32 QB's I would rather trot out than Tyrod. I think you can make an argument there are much more than 20 QB's one would take over Tyrod. But Tyrod is also not a top 16 QB, I think it would be a hard argument to say Tyrod is a top 20 QB. Tyrod was also on a very friendly deal. The Browns offered up a low-end premium draft pick for him and the Bills took good value for him. 

 

The Bills wanted a longer-term answer at QB and The Browns needed someone that could play well in front of a rookie for a year. The Browns were willing to spend the 65th pick in order to get competent QB play to avoid having to force in their top draft pick. The Bills got a good pick for a QB that wasn't going to be here past 2018, the Browns got a solid QB that gives them the luxery to not have to start a rookie. 

 

Both teams won, the trade isn't a reflection of how bad Tyrod is more so two teams needs lining up. 

Absolutely. Mayfield is coming from a spread based system, so rushing him onto the field is not advisable ( the Browns need to start winning soon). And if Tyrod plays well enough, Cleveland can always deal him during the offseason. It might not happen, but its not as far beyond the realm of possibility as the Tyrod sucks crowd thinks.

And with regard to your ranking, I think he was a top 15 QB in 2015 and 2016, and I dont think the argument is hard to make. He slipped this year,  that is true, but if he stays healthy he wil have better recievers to throw to next year.

Edited June 6, 2018 by MURPHD6

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I firmly believe the search for the new QB began not even then but at draft time before that when they started accumulating picks....Tyrod was simply a place holder while McD and Beane evaluated their roster.....knowing that this last draft was the QB draft to pluck one from.

 

Tyrod was on borrowed time....even the most stanch supporters of his had to know this.

 

This is all that needs to be said with regards to Tyrod Taylor and the 2017 Buffalo Bills.

 

It became 100% obvious the moment the bills traded down in the 2017 draft and acquired a 2018 first round draft pick that we were going to be finding our franchise QB in the 2018 draft. It was absolutely obvious at that point. I don't think you would find anyone who didn't say it was absolutely obvious. And it became more obvious every time we acquired a new draft pick.

 

"Ya know, the Bills might draft Watson or Mahomes in this draft... we hear they REALLY like Trubisky."

 

...

 

"Oh, they traded down, didn't take a QB in the 1st, and acquired a 1st round pick in next year's class, which we already think will be pretty strong???"

 

 

Traded Sammy acquired a 2nd.

 

 

Traded Darby acquired a 3rd.

 

 

 

Traded Glenn to move from 21 to 12.

 

 

 

Taylor isn't a Bill in 2019, and the primary isn't his play, which was good enough for a team drowning in the longest playoff drought in sports (and yes, Taylor was undeniably an important contributor to that playoff run), it's the fact that the Bills got an offer they couldn't refuse, an offer that would ultimately catapult them into even stronger contention to trade up in an upcoming draft to get a QB in a class that, over almost a year of playing out at that point, was turning out to be as strong, if not stronger than it appeared it would be a year ago when the 2017 draft happened and we made an obvious long-game decision.

 

Taylor is gone because the 2018 QB class was stronger than expected and, more importantly, the Bills got a REALLY valuable pick for him.

 

Otherwise, he's still in Buffalo.