Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: Of course we should have the right to disrespect the flag, our national symbol, and everything it represents. Whether it’s right or proper and whether it is the correct way to protest social injustice is another matter. See, another place where we agree. We have the right...maybe not at work unless our employer is down with it. I'm not sure what "correct way" means to you. I'd go with "not by itself a very effectivel way to protest social injustice", and perhaps you'd agree there too. So that leaves us with "right" and "proper", and I'm not quite sure what that means to you. It may bring us back to "disrespectful" (in your view)? I would say if it's not something that has the "shock value" of being disruptive or disrespectful to some, it could be argued it's not a very effective protest - so "right" or "proper" = "effective" but I don't think that was your intended meaning?
Sky Diver Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: See, another place where we agree. We have the right...maybe not at work unless our employer is down with it. I'm not sure what "correct way" means to you. I'd go with "not by itself a very effectivel way to protest social injustice", and perhaps you'd agree there too. So that leaves us with "right" and "proper", and I'm not quite sure what that means to you. It may bring us back to "disrespectful" (in your view)? I would say if it's not something that has the "shock value" of being disruptive or disrespectful to some, it could be argued it's not a very effective protest - so "right" or "proper" = "effective" but I don't think that was your intended meaning? The flag is an important symbol. Using it as a focal point for protest just serves to alienate people. Disrespecting a symbol that many hold sacred doesn’t seem like a good way to gain sympathy for your cause. Edited June 3, 2018 by Sky Diver
Success Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 I’ll never understand why anyone was and is so offended by this. 1
LikeIGiveADarn Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Success said: I’ll never understand why anyone was and is so offended by this. Because he is a multi millionaire raised in an upper middle class neighborhood, who has never experienced and never will experience American poverty, who made his millions playing a child's game, who then started preaching to his consumers on how they should think about American poverty... He's basically the liberal Trump... Edited June 3, 2018 by LikeIGiveADarn
Success Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, LikeIGiveADarn said: Because he is a multi millionaire raised in an upper middle class neighborhood, who has never experienced and never will experience American poverty, who made his millions playing a child's game, who then started preaching to his consumers on how they should think about American poverty... He's basically the liberal Trump... If only the poor stood up for the poor, nothing would ever be done for the poor.
LikeIGiveADarn Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Success said: If only the poor stood up for the poor, nothing would ever be done for the poor. Problem is is that he isn't standing up for all the poor, only for certain member of the poor, which tends to piss off the rest of the poor.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, LikeIGiveADarn said: Because he is a multi millionaire raised in an upper middle class neighborhood, who has never experienced and never will experience American poverty, who made his millions playing a child's game, who then started preaching to his consumers on how they should think about American poverty... He's basically the liberal Trump... So a person’s upbringing, economic class, and eventual affluence precludes him from sympathizing with and seeking to effect change in a societal issue he finds important? Perhaps the single most narrow-minded viewpoint I’ve read since the debate started. 1
LikeIGiveADarn Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, K-9 said: So a person’s upbringing, economic class, and eventual affluence precludes him from sympathizing with and seeking to effect change in a societal issue he finds important? Perhaps the single most narrow-minded viewpoint I’ve read since the debate started. I'm not saying any of that, but I am saying that based on what I've read and seen of Kap, that HE doesn't understand it.
BadLandsMeanie Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Success said: If only the poor stood up for the poor, nothing would ever be done for the poor. I keep vowing to keep my mouth shut on this topic. But I keep chiming in! ? For the issue of police violence towards black citizens, be it real or not or somewhere in between, I believe that the players think it is real. So they are protesting something that they themselves feel could happen to them. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it should be said that they are acting in thier own self interest here. They think they too could get stopped and get shot for no good reason. Why it bugs me is because I am tuned in to the extremely high rate of death by gunshot wound of youngsters who are black and who live in certain urban areas. It is the leading cause of death in many areas. The rate is ten times higher than for other ethnic or racial groups in the large urban areas. 10 times higher than the already epidemic rate. Many others are caught in the crossfire and killed, including children. Hundreds. But the music our players promote glorifies that lifestyle. So not only do they have they no problem with it, they love it. I'm a big tough guy because i have a gun and will shoot you if you disrespect me. They promote that. A very good percentage of them sing about it, or listen to those who do. They put out team videos of it. They adopt it as team theme songs that play in the stadiums and on TV. They practice to it. They promote their playlists of it on espn and sport illustrated websites (sponsored by Bose) That is all in good fun because they are at zero risk from it. They don't have to live there any more, if they ever did. So that is why the selfless sacrificing freedom fighter image grates on my nerves so bad. Edited June 4, 2018 by BadLandsMeanie 1
BillsfaninSB Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, no, but the terms of your lease typically set out what you can or can't do and what the penalties are for breaking the terms. If you are a business leasing a property, the terms of your lease typically give you sole authority over access to the site (reserving the site owner's right to access and inspect) and both authority over and liability for employee and contractor behavior on-site. So in the case of a Stadium lease, I would expect that the team's right to regulate and direct employees (specifically players) behavior while on the premises and so forth would be set out pretty clearly. I agree with you and your response is very well thought out. I was just tired of the argument that an NFL franchise is complete private and the owners can do whatever they want in their “house”. It’s not that black and white.
Wily Dog Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 As I said in an earlier post that, is not the flag or the anthem that our servicemen fought and died for . It was for our RIGHTS. The Supreme Court has over and over again said that a citizen CAN desecrate the flag. It is within our free speech right. I would not do it and the vast majority would not do it , but it is our right. It is our RIGHT To protest . Colin chose to protest in the manner he thought would draw attention to the lack of justice for minorities . Unfortunately , the president decided to politicize his actions .This is what polarized the country. Even the president does not understand the constitution with regard to our rights. The posters who say that everyone must stand for the anthem and flag are only partially right, Active duty service people and some contractual situations must stand . The NFL is between a rock and a hard place because any effort to legislate a dictum to the players , would make their correct null and void.
Buffalo716 Posted June 4, 2018 Author Posted June 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, Wily Dog said: As I said in an earlier post that, is not the flag or the anthem that our servicemen fought and died for . It was for our RIGHTS. The Supreme Court has over and over again said that a citizen CAN desecrate the flag. It is within our free speech right. I would not do it and the vast majority would not do it , but it is our right. It is our RIGHT To protest . Colin chose to protest in the manner he thought would draw attention to the lack of justice for minorities . Unfortunately , the president decided to politicize his actions .This is what polarized the country. Even the president does not understand the constitution with regard to our rights. The posters who say that everyone must stand for the anthem and flag are only partially right, Active duty service people and some contractual situations must stand . The NFL is between a rock and a hard place because any effort to legislate a dictum to the players , would make their correct null and void. But you don’t have full freedom of speech when working. i can’t say or do anything to my boss without repercussions at work. I’ll lose my job 2 1
Wily Dog Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: But you don’t have full freedom of speech when working. i can’t say or do anything to my boss without repercussions at work. I’ll lose my job you have freedom of speech but you may want to suppress it when you are at work unless it becomes untenable.
Buffalo716 Posted June 4, 2018 Author Posted June 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Wily Dog said: you have freedom of speech but you may want to suppress it when you are at work unless it becomes untenable. Correct. You can still say and do whatever but their will be consequences 2 1
ProcessAccepted Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 On 6/1/2018 at 8:35 PM, Binghamton Beast said: And, while they are at it, remind me of what they are doing about it besides kneeling. Oh yeah, Kaepernick wore socks with pigs on them. Surely the owners are adding a rule outlawing socks with pigs
Sky Diver Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Wily Dog said: As I said in an earlier post that, is not the flag or the anthem that our servicemen fought and died for . It was for our RIGHTS. The Supreme Court has over and over again said that a citizen CAN desecrate the flag. It is within our free speech right. I would not do it and the vast majority would not do it , but it is our right. It is our RIGHT To protest . Colin chose to protest in the manner he thought would draw attention to the lack of justice for minorities . Unfortunately , the president decided to politicize his actions .This is what polarized the country. Even the president does not understand the constitution with regard to our rights. The posters who say that everyone must stand for the anthem and flag are only partially right, Active duty service people and some contractual situations must stand . The NFL is between a rock and a hard place because any effort to legislate a dictum to the players , would make their correct null and void. The flag is a symbol. We don't stand for the flag, per se, but what it represents. Edited June 4, 2018 by Sky Diver
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 21 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: We just don’t agree on the “moving the needle” part. I don’t even disagree that it was grandstanding. With that being said, even if it got political, the conversation has taken place. I agree that the conversation primarily became about the anthem but his grievances are attached to that. It isn’t “no one talking about police brutality.” It is less than the kneeling but it is there. Even if 90% of the conversation is about the flag and 10% about race relations that 10% is 10% more than would have been there without kneeling. It has led to a ton of exposure and money. That's the part I disagree with--and which I addressed in my post exposing the cynicism of Kaep's late-to-the-movement protest. This discussion has been front and center now and had been raging for 4 full years before he woke up to it. He did so when his starting job and fame were not in jeopardy. "His grievances" didn't seem to exist before 2016, yet his stated issues were burning up front pages and dominating public discussion for years by that point. So, he has added nothing to the topic he claims to be supporting or protesting---instead, he has opened a tangential discussion about patriotism, real or fake, about Trump and about owners vs players.
Sky Diver Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 The grievance industry provides a very good living for some people.
Wily Dog Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: That's the part I disagree with--and which I addressed in my post exposing the cynicism of Kaep's late-to-the-movement protest. This discussion has been front and center now and had been raging for 4 full years before he woke up to it. He did so when his starting job and fame were not in jeopardy. "His grievances" didn't seem to exist before 2016, yet his stated issues were burning up front pages and dominating public discussion for years by that point. So, he has added nothing to the topic he claims to be supporting or protesting---instead, he has opened a tangential discussion about patriotism, real or fake, about Trump and about owners vs players. I don't agree with you calling Kaepernick a cynic . The things he was protesting against have been in the news for a long time but, with the instant news and the shift in the political scene , the racism has proliferated in the time which you said. He has traded his position as a football player for a clarion of the oppressed. Not a lot of people would have the guts to do what he has done and history will remember him, Favorably . 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 56 minutes ago, Wily Dog said: I don't agree with you calling Kaepernick a cynic . The things he was protesting against have been in the news for a long time but, with the instant news and the shift in the political scene , the racism has proliferated in the time which you said. He has traded his position as a football player for a clarion of the oppressed. Not a lot of people would have the guts to do what he has done and history will remember him, Favorably . Well than perhaps I am the cynic for pointing out that his protest began only when his football career stalled. Racism certainly has not "proliferated" in this country in the less than two years since Kaepernick apparently discovered its existence. But for those who get their news and views from social media--they could be excused for thinking what you claim is true. Also, when you have 45 million in the bank, it gets real easy to fancy yourself a "clarion of the oppressed". But he's not speaking for them--this whole kneeling/sitting/standing protest is solely about players vs owners at this point. It occurred to none of these players until Kaep sat in 2016 that they should be protesting or sticking up for or doing anything at all for 'the oppressed". They actually see themselves as the oppressed, since that CBA they couldn't wait to sign in 2011 was agreed upon.
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