Ranking Drought GMs

[BringBackOrton]

45 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yep, and Whaley the only one hamstrung by not being allowed to hire his own coach. Doubly so with the annual HC/DC turnover even.

There is zero indication that Whaley wanted any other coach other than Rex, outside of Hue Jackson of 1-31 fame.  

 

Whaley not given 100% HC hiring ability actually helped his career.

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t feel comfortable doing this because 2 of those guys weren’t doing GM duties. The real list is:

Donahoe

Modrak

Guy

Nix

Whaley

 

I’d go:

Whaley

Nix

 

 

Donahoe

 

 

 

Modrak

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guy

 

 

 

 

Whaley's positives by and large were Nix guys.  His personal "hits" were mid-level players, glue guys, guys that help a 9-7/10-6 team go 12-4.  

 

Manny Lawson, Preston Brown and the rest of the gang were not particularly impressive.

 

Zero drafted players in 4 years were selected for a Pro Bowl.  Bad bad bad bad bad bad.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

There is zero indication that Whaley wanted any other coach other than Rex, outside of Hue Jackson of 1-31 fame.  

 

Whaley not given 100% HC hiring ability actually helped his career.

Whaley's positives by and large were Nix guys.  His personal "hits" were mid-level players, glue guys, guys that help a 9-7/10-6 team go 12-4.  

 

Manny Lawson, Preston Brown and the rest of the gang were not particularly impressive.

 

Zero drafted players in 4 years were selected for a Pro Bowl.  Bad bad bad bad bad bad.

He inherited a relatively talented roster and turned it into a very talented roster + Rex. He added Shady, Zach Brown, Gillislee, Lorax, Incognito, etc... The Bills hit home runs in the bargain bin in free agency. That first Rex team was one of the most talented rosters of the drought era.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He inherited a relatively talented roster and turned it into a very talented roster + Rex. He added Shady, Zach Brown, Gillislee, Lorax, Incognito, etc... The Bills hit home runs in the bargain bin in free agency. That first Rex team was one of the most talented rosters of the drought era.

I agree that he added nice pieces. He didn't add many difference makers.  

 

The players that Whaley brought in by and large were good role players at great value.  Nix added the blue chip franchise pieces.  Line them up against each other, and the Nix team beats the Whaley team pound for pound 100/100 times.

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

There is zero indication that Whaley wanted any other coach other than Rex, outside of Hue Jackson of 1-31 fame.  

 

 

Doesnt matter that his guy was Hue, it was still his guy, and most Bills fans knock on Whaley was his so-called inability to get along with the HCs. That would have been solved, or at least on his shoulders, had he been allowed to hire his guy. And there were stories at the time of the Rex hiring that it was Brandon who wanted Rex, and Whaley had to be convinced in a couple of long meetings with Rex.

 

Every other GM on that list was allowed to hire "his guy", sometimes multiple times.

 

And most of Nix's players were Whaley's players given Whaley's position on Nix's staff.

 

Look at how many players Whaley drafted, who were subsequently cut a year or two later as we changed schemes, that were starting on playoff teams last year. There were a lot.

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

I agree that he added nice pieces. He didn't add many difference makers.  

 

The players that Whaley brought in by and large were good role players at great value.  Nix added the blue chip franchise pieces.  Line them up against each other, and the Nix team beats the Whaley team pound for pound 100/100 times.

 

I dont disagree with that completely. But a lot of Nix's picks came from Whaley.

[4_kidd_4]

I liked Buddy Nix, he was a living caricature of olde timey Southern football.

 

That leaked call was great.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I agree that he added nice pieces. He didn't add many difference makers.  

 

The players that Whaley brought in by and large were good role players at great value.  Nix added the blue chip franchise pieces.  Line them up against each other, and the Nix team beats the Whaley team pound for pound 100/100 times.

That’s because a lot of the “core” was there. It’s easier to be a GM on a bad team. There is a lot of work to be done. It is much harder to fill in the spots because there is less margin for error. It’s much easier to be the GM of the Phoenix Suns than the Houston Rockets. The Rockets are seeking specific pieces to put them over the top. The Suns are seeking any kind of talent. 

 

Also, don’t underestimate Whaley’s involvement in those drafts (both good and bad). Nix and Whaley were very, very, very collaborative. They worked very closely on all of that. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Doesnt matter that his guy was Hue, it was still his guy, and most Bills fans knock on Whaley was his so-called inability to get along with the HCs. That would have been solved, or at least on his shoulders, had he been allowed to hire his guy. And there were stories at the time of the Rex hiring that it was Brandon who wanted Rex, and Whaley had to be convinced in a couple of long meetings with Rex.

 

Every other GM on that list was allowed to hire "his guy", sometimes multiple times.

 

And most of Nix's players were Whaley's players given Whaley's position on Nix's staff.

 

Look at how many players Whaley drafted, who were subsequently cut a year or two later as we changed schemes, that were starting on playoff teams last year. There were a lot.

 

I dont disagree with that completely. But a lot of Nix's picks came from Whaley.

For the purpose of this discussion, I am making a clear demarcation of 2010-2013 as Nix, and 2013-2016 as Whaley.  As director of Pro Personnel under Nix, it is hard to say exactly how much influence he had on each pick.  I do realize he was a instrumental FO guy in those Nix years, but I am just comparing them as active GM's.  I tend to give Whaley credit/blame for 2013 as most people in the know have stated Nix was basically retired at that point and Whaley was the guy.

 

I think the stories of Whaley being "convinced" on Rex were part of a concerted effort to distance himself from that blunder after the fact.  If Whaley is as astute of a football guy as they claim, he would've recognized Rex was doomed by the end of 2015.  I was one of the earliest posters wanting him fired and wanting the bandaid ripped off after 2015, because of how much of a disappointment he was.  

 

Listen, Whaley drafted some decent dudes, I know the record of JAGs still in the NFL.  But they were just JAGs. None of them are stars.  A whole bunch of good role players gets you to 8-8.

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s because a lot of the “core” was there. It’s easier to be a GM on a bad team. There is a lot of work to be done. It is much harder to fill in the spots because there is less margin for error. It’s much easier to be the GM of the Phoenix Suns than the Houston Rockets. The Rockets are seeking specific pieces to put them over the top. The Suns are seeking any kind of talent. 

 

Also, don’t underestimate Whaley’s involvement in those drafts (both good and bad). Nix and Whaley were very, very, very collaborative. They worked very closely on all of that. 

See above.

[formerlyofCtown]

Whaley

Danahoe

Nix

Brandon 

Levy

Or

Wilson

Wilson

Wilson

Wilson

Wilson/Whaley/Pegula

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s because a lot of the “core” was there. It’s easier to be a GM on a bad team. There is a lot of work to be done. It is much harder to fill in the spots because there is less margin for error. It’s much easier to be the GM of the Phoenix Suns than the Houston Rockets. The Rockets are seeking specific pieces to put them over the top. The Suns are seeking any kind of talent. 

 

Also, don’t underestimate Whaley’s involvement in those drafts (both good and bad). Nix and Whaley were very, very, very collaborative. They worked very closely on all of that. 

It actually took 3 GMs to build our beloved SB teams.  Everyone wants to give the credit to Polian though.

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

For the purpose of this discussion, I am making a clear demarcation of 2010-2013 as Nix, and 2013-2016 as Whaley.  As director of Pro Personnel under Nix, it is hard to say exactly how much influence he had on each pick.  I do realize he was a instrumental FO guy in those Nix years, but I am just comparing them as active GM's.  I tend to give Whaley credit/blame for 2013 as most people in the know have stated Nix was basically retired at that point and Whaley was the guy.

 

I think the stories of Whaley being "convinced" on Rex were part of a concerted effort to distance himself from that blunder after the fact.  If Whaley is as astute of a football guy as they claim, he would've recognized Rex was doomed by the end of 2015.  I was one of the earliest posters wanting him fired and wanting the bandaid ripped off after 2015, because of how much of a disappointment he was.  

 

Listen, Whaley drafted some decent dudes, I know the record of JAGs still in the NFL.  But they were just JAGs. None of them are stars.  A whole bunch of good role players gets you to 8-8.

See above.

I know that to be the case in terms of collaboration. I’ve heard that from various people that were in football ops at that time. There really isn’t anything (good or bad) that belongs to Nix and not Whaley (if their times overlapped completely). I don’t remember if they did or not. There werent many/any situations where Nix and Whaley didn’t come to a consensus.

[BringBackOrton]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s because a lot of the “core” was there. It’s easier to be a GM on a bad team. There is a lot of work to be done. It is much harder to fill in the spots because there is less margin for error. It’s much easier to be the GM of the Phoenix Suns than the Houston Rockets. The Rockets are seeking specific pieces to put them over the top. The Suns are seeking any kind of talent. 

 

Also, don’t underestimate Whaley’s involvement in those drafts (both good and bad). Nix and Whaley were very, very, very collaborative. They worked very closely on all of that. 

First, second and third round picks are still high picks.  Whaley's track record on those is....poor.

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

First, second and third round picks are still high picks.  Whaley's track record on those is....poor.

If we call 2013 his first draft and 2017 his last (he at least played a major role in those) he selected 15 players in the 1st 3 rounds. 11 or 12 of those guys (depending on Shaq) will be starting in the NFL this year. 

 

Starters: Woods, Kiko, Goodwin, Sammy, Preston Brown, Darby, John Miller, Shaq, Ragland, Tre White, Zay Jones and Dion Dawkins. 

 

Non-Starters: EJ, Kouandjio, Adolphus Washington 

 

I wouldn’t call that poor (at all). In fact, I’d bet that very few teams have 80% of their picks, in rounds 1-3, between 2013-2017, starting in 2018. 

[Gugny]

16 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

First, second and third round picks are still high picks.  Whaley's track record on those is....poor.

 

As of the end of his last season, more of Whaley's draft picks were on 53-man rosters than any other NFL GMs' picks during Whaley's tenure.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If we call 2013 his first draft and 2017 his last (he at least played a major role in those) he selected 15 players in the 1st 3 rounds. 11 or 12 of those guys (depending on Shaq) will be starting in the NFL this year. 

 

Starters: Woods, Kiko, Goodwin, Sammy, Preston Brown, Darby, John Miller, Shaq, Ragland, Tre White, Zay Jones and Dion Dawkins. 

 

Non-Starters: EJ, Kouandjio, Adolphus Washington 

 

I wouldn’t call that poor (at all). In fact, I’d bet that very few teams have 80% of their picks, in rounds 1-3, between 2013-2017, starting in 2018. 

2017 had McD's final say on Whaley's board, so I will not give him credit for those.

 

The bolded are above average role players.  53 Woods, Kikos and Browns are not championship contenders.

 

There's a ton of starter quality players in the NFL.  Whaley got a ton of players with high floors and low ceilings.  That's not a winning formula.

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

As of the end of his last season, more of Whaley's draft picks were on 53-man rosters than any other NFL GMs' picks during Whaley's tenure.

Being the 40th best player on your roster doesn't make you good.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

Being the 40th best player on your roster doesn't make you good.

 

Being out of the NFL means you suck.

[BringBackOrton]

14 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Being out of the NFL means you suck.

Whaley didn't draft a ton of players that suck, and all it got him was a below .500 record as GM.   Because he didn't draft any really good players either.

 

0fer on ProBowlers.  Tre White is a better pick than literally everyone Whaley took.  Teams would be lining up to trade Woods, Goodwin, Kiko and Brown for Tre. And those were Whaley's "gems." LOL

[Kirby Jackson]

20 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

2017 had McD's final say on Whaley's board, so I will not give him credit for those.

 

The bolded are above average role players.  53 Woods, Kikos and Browns are not championship contenders.

 

There's a ton of starter quality players in the NFL.  Whaley got a ton of players with high floors and low ceilings.  That's not a winning formula.

Being the 40th best player on your roster doesn't make you good.

So he doesn’t get any credit for being the GM at the time and the one that assembled the draft board?!? Really?!? Who do you think put the scouting reports together? Ultimately McDermott may have decided on the positions but the board was set by the staff.

 

The 40th best player on your roster isn’t starting. 80% of his guys were starting. What @Gugny said above is really interesting. It feels like you are really grasping at straws here. He had the most draft picks starting. If that is poor how would you grade every single other guy that had less people than that? 

[BringBackOrton]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

So he doesn’t get any credit for being the GM at the time and the one that assembled the draft board?!? Really?!? Who do you think put the scouting reports together? Ultimately McDermott may have decided on the positions but the board was set by the staff.

 

The 40th best player on your roster isn’t starting. 80% of his guys were starting. What @Gugny said above is really interesting. It feels like you are really grasping at straws here. He had the most draft picks starting. If that is poor how would you grade every single other guy that had less people than that? 

You are being obtuse on purpose, because I know you agree with me, but feel the need to cite that silly statistic.

 

We ALWAYS talk about how the best players to draft are players with high ceilings, because superstars are how you win in the NFL.  One superstar players is BETTER than 3 decent starters.  Always has been, always will be.  You know that, but refuse to use that philosophy against Whaley, who drafted 6 or 7 decent guys over 4 drafts but never ONE SINGLE STAR.

 

Whaley was a lame duck GM overseeing a fired scouting deparment.  McD made the picks and was the acting GM at the time.  So no, I will not give Whaley credit as a GM for those picks for the purpose of this discussion.

 

Also, "it's easier to get good players as a bad team," yet Whaley was picking in the top 10 in the 2013 and 2014 draft and got ZERO stars in the first three rounds (Watkins is debateable to most, I actually will give Whaley half credit on him.)  McD shows up and trades back to pick #27 in 2017 and drafted a better individual player than Whaley drafted in 4 years.  This is not debateable.  Do you think McD would trade Tre White for Woods, Goodwin and Preston Brown straight up? No, of course not because STARS ARE WHAT MATTERS IN THE NFL, NOT GOOD ROLE PLAYERS, which you already know.

 

Whaley found a couple bargain bin guys that ended up pleasant surprises.  McD and Nix had slam dunk draft picks on STARS.  End of story.  I wouldn't trade Tre White for 20 Preston Browns.  Neither would you. So don't tell me that Whaley is this mythical GM with one of the best drafting track records, because it's just. not. true.

Edited June 1, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Gugny]

21 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Whaley didn't draft a ton of players that suck, and all it got him was a below .500 record as GM.   Because he didn't draft any really good players either.

 

0fer on ProBowlers.  Tre White is a better pick than literally everyone Whaley took.  Teams would be lining up to trade Woods, Goodwin, Kiko and Brown for Tre. And those were Whaley's "gems." LOL

 

Now GMs have records?  Jesus Christ. 

 

Whaley drafted players who were good enough.  He just wasn't allowed to choose a coach good enough to help them win games.

[Buftex]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

The biggest (legitimate) knock on Whaley was his inability to find a QB and - even more so, in my opinion - hanging onto the EJ hope for too long.  But you are correct, finding a QB in the NFL is the hardest task to complete.  By far.  And none of these GMs was able to do it.

 

Donahoe took a big gamble on McGahee and his destroyed knee.  I still think it was a good pick.

 

But, as @DrDawkinstein said above, Whaley gets the nod from me because DESPITE never being able to hire his own head coach, he had the team (I believe) a QB away from being a very good/great team.

 

Rex Ryan being stuffed down any GM's throat would be a career killer for said GM.

 

I think Whaley was a "good," GM.  Donahoe was a little less good.  All the others were an embarrassment; especially Marv Levy.

I'll buy that.  My memory for all of the specifics of the early 2000's isn't as clear as it should be for this...I liked Whaley and TD.   

 

Though I like both guys, the Marv Levy and Russ Brandon reign is what really set the franchise back, in my opinion.  They were a terrible duo for the GM role, or whatever it was that they were doing. 

 

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Now GMs have records?  Jesus Christ. 

 

Whaley drafted players who were good enough.  He just wasn't allowed to choose a coach good enough to help them win games.

Interesting.  Because Woods wasn't good enough to be anything more than a decent #2 option WR.  Brown was a deficient slow MLB who was a liability in pass coverage.  Darby was a CB who could either play incredible or get embarrassed on a week to week basis.  Kiko was an undersized MLB who had 6 good games, fell off the map, tore an ACL again and is a rotational player on his 3rd team in 5 years.  Watkins was a star potential WR with maturity issues, who made a target of himself in the media, couldn't stay healthy, was traded to ANOTHER team that couldn't use him and is now on HIS third team in 4 years.  John Miller is the definition of a low ceiling OG who had a decent rookie campaign and has lost his job to Vlad Ducasse.  Shaq is a perpetual first round disappointment, who can't rush the passer, can't stay healthy, and missed almost a whole year due to Whaley incorrectly assessing his shoulder.  Ragland is a scheme specific old school MLB, who again, is a slow liability against the pass, and was sold to the lowest bidder.  

 

So tell me, Gug, @Kirby Jackson, THESE are the gems of Whaley's drafting career? Picks in the top 3 rounds who are mostly flawed rotational players at best, and downright trash at worst?  These are the players who were "good enough?"

 

I'll have what you're having.