"Josh Allen is blowing people away" - Chris Simms

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Lfod said:

I have a feeling that the people wanting him to start will be the first ones to give up in him if he struggles. I think it's them wanting to write the book on Allen. They want to judge the pick as soon as possible. I don't think it's them wanting Allen to start because it will make the team better. 

 

If he starts and struggles I bet no one calling for him to start will say it was a mistake to rush him in. They will only say Allen sucks. 

 

It kind of depends doesn't it?  If Allen is clearly the best Quarterback on the team (and I suspect he will be) then I want them to start him, even if I am not sure he is 100% ready.  If it is kind of close coming out of camp and pre-season with McCarron then I am absolutely for Allen sitting until they feel it is the right time.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Lfod said:

I really don't know if the situation is the same. I would have to ask if Watson started on a team with a new OC when the last OC was fired the year before. Did the line lose a couple key players like our line lost woods and Incognito? 

 

Was a new scheme being implemented at the start of Watson's career? Even escape artist Tyrod got planted on his head and had to take a seat his last game of the year with the line we had before we lost players. 

 

How long does it take for a new OC to implement a new scheme and everything to gel together anyway? Was the result of Watson being injured a good one? 

 

Did the Texans spend as much draft capital on Allen as the Texans did with Watson. Was it a new GMs first draft with a HC going into his second year? 

 

I just think with all that going on it wouldn't be reasonable to question why the rush to throw out your rookie QB that you invested heavily in on a team that's cap strapped and hit with a few unplanned curve balls. 

 

Did Watson have a receiving core that is looked down upon like our current one is. I mean Zay almost jumped out a window man. Now dude getting surgery and will it effect anything? Is it that crazy to think it would look stupid if Allen starts and calamiy happens and he sits for the rest of the year anyway due to injury? Would it have been worth the risk because people are riding the hype of a rookie QB? 

 

Is Allen that good coming out of college people want to bank on him having an immediate impact on a team that was having struggles scoring points the year before. Anything can happen but wow man. 

 

Watson did start on a team that had fired its Offensive Coordinator from the year before - yes. Did they implement a new offense? They designed an offense especially for Watson. Did his line lose a couple of key players? Yep.  Their best offensive lineman - left tackle Duane Brown - held out for the first 6 games, then started one game and then was traded away. Their starting guard played the first two games then got injured and missed the rest of Watson's starts.  The Houston offensive line was a hot mess all season.  His injury may have been a freak slip, it may have been in part the hit he had taken on a play in Seattle the previous Sunday that had weakened the knee.  The GM and HC consistency point is well made and the point about his receivers.... well he had DeAndre Hopkins and we have nobody of that class.  He had Will Fuller too who would be a starter here, no doubt, but to this point in his career Will Fuller without DeShaun Watson at Quarterback is very much JAG. Will Fuller with Watson is a borderline #1 type wide receiver.  The stats differential is that stark.  

 

I suppose the conclusion of that is that while we might want to wait until everything is perfect to send Josh Allen out there as our starter... the reality rarely works out that way.  If a guy is clearly the best Quarterback on the team (Watson was all offseason in Houston and I suspect by mid camp Allen will be here) then you have no reason to mollycoddle them. You have to put them in, try and create the best circumstances you can for their success and then let them live or die by their own performance.  You have to trust the process basically.... don't artificially rush Allen out there before he is ready, but don't artificially hold him back when he is clearly the best guy either.  

[Thurman#1]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Watson did start on a team that had fired its Offensive Coordinator from the year before - yes. Did they implement a new offense? They designed an offense especially for Watson. Did his line lose a couple of key players? Yep.  Their best offensive lineman - left tackle Duane Brown - held out for the first 6 games, then started one game and then was traded away. Their starting guard played the first two games then got injured and missed the rest of Watson's starts.  The Houston offensive line was a hot mess all season.  His injury may have been a freak slip, it may have been in part the hit he had taken on a play in Seattle the previous Sunday that had weakened the knee.  The GM and HC consistency point is well made and the point about his receivers.... well he had DeAndre Hopkins and we have nobody of that class.  He had Will Fuller too who would be a starter here, no doubt, but to this point in his career Will Fuller without DeShaun Watson at Quarterback is very much JAG. Will Fuller with Watson is a borderline #1 type wide receiver.  The stats differential is that stark.  

 

I suppose the conclusion of that is that while we might want to wait until everything is perfect to send Josh Allen out there as our starter... the reality rarely works out that way.  If a guy is clearly the best Quarterback on the team (Watson was all offseason in Houston and I suspect by mid camp Allen will be here) then you have no reason to mollycoddle them. You have to put them in, try and create the best circumstances you can for their success and then let them live or die by their own performance.  You have to trust the process basically.... don't artificially rush Allen out there before he is ready, but don't artificially hold him back when he is clearly the best guy either.  

 

 

Best guy might not be the important benchmark. 

 

Allen might be the best of three guys who suck. If so, we shouldn't throw him out there. The most important thing that will happen this season is whatever happens to Josh Allen. His development (or regression or stasis) dwarfs anything else that will happen with the 2018 Bills. If you're going to screw him up by putting him out there, I don't care if he's the best, sit him till he understands what's going on.

 

Now if either McCarron or Peterman or both are playing well and Allen is simply better, great, that means he's ready. 

 

But being the best of three doesn't mean you're ready. He shouldn't go out there till they know he's ready, that he's not going to have his confidence destroyed and lose all the gains he's made to his mechanics as he concentrates on other things.

 

Watson had played at Clemson. Allen at Wyoming. 

 

I hope he stays out all year. I wouldn't be surprised to see him play part of the season. I greatly doubt we'll see him in the first game or two. Too much to learn.

[The_Dude]

I tend to take Sals position that perhaps Chris Simms is a little full of it. 

[GunnerBill]

31 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Allen might be the best of three guys who suck. If so, we shouldn't throw him out there.

 

That is where we disagree.  I think that is artificially holding the guy back and I don't know who that helps - short term or long term.  If Allen is the least bad of three options you start him but limit what you ask him to do.  

 

You admit later on in your post you preference is for Allen to sit the whole year, that is fair enough.  I don't have a preference either way.  I say if he is the best guy he plays, if he isn't he doesn't.  

[Thurman#1]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is where we disagree.  I think that is artificially holding the guy back and I don't know who that helps - short term or long term.  If Allen is the least bad of three options you start him but limit what you ask him to do.  

 

You admit later on in your post you preference is for Allen to sit the whole year, that is fair enough.  I don't have a preference either way.  I say if he is the best guy he plays, if he isn't he doesn't.  

 

 

I guess it is indeed where we disagree.

 

The reason you're held back doesn't matter squat to your results.

 

Fair enough that we disagree. I've been wrong before, and not a few times. But IMHO if there are only three pilots available to fly your plane and none of them are real good, you don't put the best of them out there, you cancel the flight. The Bills can't cancel the flight, obviously, but they can limit the damage of a crash by having one of the guys who ain't their long-term future absorb the injuries while the guy you're developing spends more time on the simulator.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I guess it is indeed where we disagree.

 

The reason you're held back doesn't matter squat to your results.

 

Fair enough that we disagree. I've been wrong before, and not a few times. But IMHO if there are only three pilots available to fly your plane and none of them are real good, you don't put the best of them out there, you cancel the flight. The Bills can't cancel the flight, obviously, but they can limit the damage of a crash by having one of the guys who ain't their long-term future absorb the injuries while the guy you're developing spends more time on the simulator.

 

And just to clarify - if it is close - like if all 3 really suck and it is hard to tell who is better then I would start AJ.  But if two look like train wrecks and Allen just looks a bit bad then he is clearly the best you have and I'd start him. 

[Bills Pimpin']

42 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I guess it is indeed where we disagree.

 

The reason you're held back doesn't matter squat to your results.

 

Fair enough that we disagree. I've been wrong before, and not a few times. But IMHO if there are only three pilots available to fly your plane and none of them are real good, you don't put the best of them out there, you cancel the flight. The Bills can't cancel the flight, obviously, but they can limit the damage of a crash by having one of the guys who ain't their long-term future absorb the injuries while the guy you're developing spends more time on the simulator.

I agree with this and it is the reason why I think Josh Allen is in the best position of all rookie QB's and has the best chance to succeed.

 

McD earned himself at least 3 years with the Bills making the playoffs last year so he gets to play it however he feels fit. That is the exact opposite position of say the Browns or the Jets. If things don't go well early for either of those franchises the head coaches may throw the rookies in as a Hail Mary to save their jobs whether the rooks are ready or not and could inhibit the progress of either player. IF McD and Daboll read it right and make the right decision on when to play the Allen It will make a huge difference in his career. Simulator or Live bullets? Biggest decision the coach will have to make with the Buffalo Bills.

 

I personally trust McD, regardless of his NP decision last year. So I think things are lining up for Allen, it will be interesting to see where it goes. 

[cd1]

7 minutes ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

I agree with this and it is the reason why I think Josh Allen is in the best position of all rookie QB's and has the best chance to succeed.

 

McD earned himself at least 3 years with the Bills making the playoffs last year so he gets to play it however he feels fit. That is the exact opposite position of say the Browns or the Jets. If things don't go well early for either of those franchises the head coaches may throw the rookies in as a Hail Mary to save their jobs whether the rooks are ready or not and could inhibit the progress of either player. IF McD and Daboll read it right and make the right decision on when to play the Allen It will make a huge difference in his career. Simulator or Live bullets? Biggest decision the coach will have to make with the Buffalo Bills.

 

I personally trust McD, regardless of his NP decision last year. So I think things are lining up for Allen, it will be interesting to see where it goes. 

 

Maybe IF anything positive comes out of the Nate/Chargers fiasco it will have taught McCoach not to jump the gun on a rookie QB.

 

Trial by fire gets everyone burned.

[Lfod]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Watson did start on a team that had fired its Offensive Coordinator from the year before - yes. Did they implement a new offense? They designed an offense especially for Watson. Did his line lose a couple of key players? Yep.  Their best offensive lineman - left tackle Duane Brown - held out for the first 6 games, then started one game and then was traded away. Their starting guard played the first two games then got injured and missed the rest of Watson's starts.  The Houston offensive line was a hot mess all season.  His injury may have been a freak slip, it may have been in part the hit he had taken on a play in Seattle the previous Sunday that had weakened the knee.  The GM and HC consistency point is well made and the point about his receivers.... well he had DeAndre Hopkins and we have nobody of that class.  He had Will Fuller too who would be a starter here, no doubt, but to this point in his career Will Fuller without DeShaun Watson at Quarterback is very much JAG. Will Fuller with Watson is a borderline #1 type wide receiver.  The stats differential is that stark.  

 

I suppose the conclusion of that is that while we might want to wait until everything is perfect to send Josh Allen out there as our starter... the reality rarely works out that way.  If a guy is clearly the best Quarterback on the team (Watson was all offseason in Houston and I suspect by mid camp Allen will be here) then you have no reason to mollycoddle them. You have to put them in, try and create the best circumstances you can for their success and then let them live or die by their own performance.  You have to trust the process basically.... don't artificially rush Allen out there before he is ready, but don't artificially hold him back when he is clearly the best guy either.  

Thanks for the response. I was asking those questions because I really didn't know. I knew that Watson had been getting praise but I wasn't sure how similar the circumstances had been when Yolo mentioned it. 

 

Sounds to be a bit more similar then I had thought. I only want Allen to be successful. That is my why I had formulated the opinion I have. I just want the team to do the best thing with the Allen investment. It's kinda important to me and I imagine it is to the team as well. 

 

If starting Allen this season is going to be the best outcome for him and the team then I could only be for it. I just would rather have Allen start because the team is comfortable and not making the choice in haste. 

6 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

They had one of the worst olines in the league and traded away the best player,  LT Diane Brown, mid-season. The only two players on the OL who played every game were the LG and RT. They used 7 different line combos due to injury and trading Brown.

 

To get Watson, they  gave up this year’s 1st, which ended up being the 4th overall pick, in addition to last year’s 1st. I’d say that’s a hefty investment.

 

Not sure what the bolded means but I’ll go with no. Also, Houston doesn’t have an OC but they did fire the OC the year before.  They fired George Godsey at the end of 2016 and  BOB decided to do it all himself. The QB coach Sean Ryan was in his first season, as in he had never even been a QB coach. He previously had coached WR. Sound familiar?

 

Im not saying I do or do not want Allen to start. I won’t be surprised if he does though given what this regime has said and done since they got here. I was just asking why you would only criticize them for it if he had season ending injury. It was an odd statement (to me). 

 

Watson may have had a better #1 WR in Hopkins at his disposal, but he was on a team so poor last year they finished with the 4th worst record (mainly without him as he only ended up playing 6 games), O’Brien didn’t bother hiring an OC, had a 1st yr QB coach, traded his LT instead of paying him, shuffled around the OL all year, and the environment was toxic as he forced out the GM and the owner referred to the players as inmates. Not only that but his TE was out all year with concussions and then retired, his #2 WR missed 6 games due to injury and his defense was ranking last in the league. It was far from ideal, if that was what you were thinking. 

I read another response about Allen from Gunner. I really was asking questions I didn't know. I am thankful for the knowledge of the situation. It makes for a deeper discussion. It relaxes my position on Allen starting. My only real desire is that Allen can be successful. I am a patient person. Trust me I want to see Allen start just as bad as anyone. I just don't want to see the investment fail. 

[Delete This Account]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:43 PM, Estro said:

Was listening to the Simms & Lefkoe podcast today.  Said he's head from a media source and someone w/in the organization that Allen has been blowing people away (in a good way).  Listen for yourself.  It begins exactly at 40:26

 

 

i know people want to really, really Bill-ieve, but let's tap the brakes here.

 

a team source says something really positive about the team's new young quarterback hope.

it's June 1, people. just saying.

he's still working with the 3s and did show a few signs of improvement in yesterday's 2-minute drill, though he gets a knock for telegraphing an interception.

 

all that said, a team source saying something you'd expect a team source to say is not actually considered a breath-taking revelation.

 

let's give things a few months.

 

jw

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

i know people want to really, really Bill-ieve, but let's tap the brakes here.

 

a team source says something really positive about the team's new young quarterback hope.

it's June 1, people. just saying.

he's still working with the 3s and did show a few signs of improvement in yesterday's 2-minute drill, though he gets a knock for telegraphing an interception.

 

all that said, a team source saying something you'd expect a team source to say is not actually considered a breath-taking revelation.

 

let's give things a few months.

 

jw

 

 

 

 

 

Of course we want to Bill-ieve...very hungry fan base.  Can't really anticipate much brake tapping because after the drought, there wasn't much brake pad left and it was just metal on metal.

[BB@Shooter]

11 hours ago, Lfod said:

The cartoon is just an example of some guy riding the hype and jumping ship during struggle. Like I predict a lot of people will do if Allen struggles. It's not hard to understand. Well I guess it is....

 

I still haven't seen any good arguments to start Allen besides hypothetical what ifs.

I haven't seen any good arguments to start anyone besides hypothetical what ifs. The reason for that is it is too damn early on. Let it go man.

2 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

i know people want to really, really Bill-ieve, but let's tap the brakes here.

 

a team source says something really positive about the team's new young quarterback hope.

it's June 1, people. just saying.

he's still working with the 3s and did show a few signs of improvement in yesterday's 2-minute drill, though he gets a knock for telegraphing an interception.

 

all that said, a team source saying something you'd expect a team source to say is not actually considered a breath-taking revelation.

 

let's give things a few months.

 

jw

 

 

 

 

What signs of improvement is he showing? For that to happen he would have had to look bad at some point in camp. That hasn't happened. You don't go off of what he did in college, you go off of what he does while with the Bills.

[BB@Shooter]

11 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Let me repeat what I said

 

"I was pleasantly suprised to hear that AJM looked good with the ones"

 

Currently Allen is running with the THIRD team now how much can we gleam from that?  Not much because its against air.....but if AJM is not a disaster that would be a good thing for this team.

 

So often ppl want to see their new shiny toy. 

 

If Allen wins it outright....you cant keep him on the bench....it would be good to see AJM give him a run for his money.

And you also said to let him sit until the game slowed down for him. I am asking how you know if the game needs to be slowed down for any of the qbs? I am specifically implying Allen. You are assuming the game is too fast for him before he has a chance to prove otherwise. That is all I questioned. Next time try and comprehend the question before you go off half cocked.

[John from Riverside]

14 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:

And you also said to let him sit until the game slowed down for him. I am asking how you know if the game needs to be slowed down for any of the qbs? I am specifically implying Allen. You are assuming the game is too fast for him before he has a chance to prove otherwise. That is all I questioned. Next time try and comprehend the question before you go off half cocked.

Do you need a hug?

[BillnutinHouston]

2 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

i know people want to really, really Bill-ieve, but let's tap the brakes here.

 

a team source says something really positive about the team's new young quarterback hope.

it's June 1, people. just saying.

he's still working with the 3s and did show a few signs of improvement in yesterday's 2-minute drill, though he gets a knock for telegraphing an interception.

 

all that said, a team source saying something you'd expect a team source to say is not actually considered a breath-taking revelation.

 

let's give things a few months.

 

jw

 

 

 

 

 

It was my understanding that Simms' comments were in reference to glowing reviews coming from a media source, not a team source. 

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

It was my understanding that Simms' comments were in reference to glowing reviews coming from a media source, not a team source. 

He said it was a media source and then he confirmed it with a team source 

[stuvian]

13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Thats not weird... 

not at all. the whole Shanahan to SF thing makes a lot more sense now

[BB@Shooter]

12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Do you need a hug?

Only if I am sitting by the Riverside with you Big John. Are you one of those types that like to cuddle??

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:

Only if I am sitting by the Riverside with you Big John. Are you one of those types that like to cuddle??

Anything for a fellow bills fan