Stadium Construction Facts & Figures

[BigBuff423]

This was a well thought-out post with some good information, thank you OP for providing something more than "Buffalo sucks, we'll never get a dome!" or "NOOOOO! The weather advantage!!"..... I'm not sure where you get your information from, but it does sound like you're at least somewhat of an authority on the subject given how you present the subject and how to consider all factors. If you're not, you're faking it well....kind of like Peter Pan's girlfriend. 

 

For my personal take, I've been advocate for a dome - no retractable piece - for years. I think Buffalo is a fantastic venue and the dome would provide a truly great experience. Yes, those of us that lived and recall the glory years of Kelly-Thurman-Bruce-Reed and others, remember knocking the stuffing out of Oakland in freezing weather, but honestly, it just doesn't appeal to this generation anymore (by and large, just in general). Taking my 5 year old daughter to a snow-pocalypse type of game is not my idea of a good time with her. I want her to enjoy the game, not get frostbite. And yes, if I go with pals, it's rockin' good time. But, and this is a giant rear end here (think Rex), the outdoor venue in December and / or January does NOT enhance the game, IMO. I like the idea of being able to build a super slick, quick tempo Offense - like Greatest Offense on Turf 2.0 - and know that it's also comfortable. The Vikings type of stadium would be ideal, IMHO - but to each his own. 

[PromoTheRobot]

As much as I'd like a new stadium downtown, I wonder if it would not be cheaper to build a new stadium next to the old one? 

 

Part of what kept the cost of the old Rich Stadium down, and makes it still solid now, is being dug into the ground. You can't do the downtown because of the water table but obviously it can be done in Orchard Park.

 

Build a 65K seat dome but put it mostly in the ground.

Edited May 25, 2018 by PromoTheRobot

[stevewin]

Thanks for the great analysis.

 

One thing you left out though was where the parking garage would be? ?

[zonabb]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

As much as I'd like a new stadium downtown, I wonder if it would not be cheaper to build a new stadium best to the old one? 

 

Part of what kept the cost of the old Rich Stadium down, and makes it still solid now, is being dug into the ground. You can't do the downtown because of the water table but obviously it can be done in Orchard Park.

 

Build a 65K seat dome but put it mostly in the ground.

 

Good piece. I've worked in development and upper level govt in this region and have friends who were heavily involved in some recent stadium construction jobs. The issue that is mentioned in passing but I think critically important as it relates to cost is infrastructure. This is what drives total stadium costs sneakily up. And it's why the most cost-effective new stadium location is across the street from the current stadium. The infrastructure costs alone in downtown Buffalo would be enormous. The City's sewer and water system is antiquated and has limited capacity to add a stadium to. Those two systems alone would cost tens of millions if not over $100m to not just install on site but improve and upgrade capacity off site. More costly would be necessary improvements to the existing transportation system. Right now there is not a spot downtown that can handle the auto traffic, both the roadway and signal systems but the parking availability. We're talking improving interchanges and the existing street network... hundreds of millions. 

 

Then there is the costs no one is talking about downtown.... property acquisition. Yes the Pegulas have money, but I've looked at the sites people have talked about and proposed, including those coming out of the stadium working group a few years back. We're talking many, many parcels needed. Each with different owners. So the Pegulas can try to buy them all up using shell LLCs to shield the fact the purchases are for a stadium, hoping to keep the prices down. But that won't last long, one person doing homework on LLCs can connect the dots and expose the intent, driving up costs. Then there's the potential for hold out owners, possibly requiring the use of eminent domain, which the Pegulas can't use they'd need city to do it. That's a tough sell for the city to likely be asked to absorb costs for the new stadium and take people's property for it. The potential legal fight over eminent domain could push the construction off years.

 

So alone the non-stadium costs for a downtown stadium already put it 100s of millions above building across the street from the Ralph. With money hard to come buy, a cheaper solution rather than a geographic solution is likely. Unless a similar site elsewhere shows up where limited new infrastructure upgrades are needed, I can't see a new stadium anywhere but on Abbott. 

 

The water table isn't an issue. The foundations/piles for existing downtown buildings prove that the water table issue is non-existent. In fact, most major world cities are built on the water....NYC, London, Tokyo, Dubai...   Engineering solves that problem and the seasonally high water table in Orchard Park is only a few feet below surface. Basically the subsurface design of the Ralph is a concrete bowl keeping water out and then supplemented with site graded draining and likely some collection and pump system. 

 

 

 

[corta765]

10 hours ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

Good post! A couple things should be noted (I've done a lot of homework in the past regarding the subject and G-4 program).

 

Using the Lions and Colts stadium models should be used as a basis for design only. The cost for a new stadium for the Bills (if it were the exact replica of one of those buildings; obviously, it won't be) would be different for a couple key reasons.

 

Infrastructure cost is based on the site. The changes that would be necessary for a stadium in downtown Buffalo would be different than it was for those projects, which would have a significant impact on the total cost for the Bills project. What's unknown is whether it would require more or less work than those projects required.

 

Also, inflation. Lucas Oil was $720 mil, but that was 10 years ago. If built exactly the same today, that project would cost more than $800 mil, more than 10% more expensive due to inflation.

 

(IRG to your renovation guess figures) One of the provisions in the G-4 program requires the team to match the league contribution. If the league grants $250 mil for a renovation, the Bills cannot contribute $125 mil, it has to be equal.

 

Also, another provision in the program relates to the total league revenue. It states that up to $200 mil for new stadium/$250 mil for renovations, but there's also a limit of 1.5% of total league revenue in a given year. In 2016, that figure was over $13 bil, and it's estimated that it was over $14 bil last year. At $14 bil even, the max contribution from the league would be $210 mil, and that would be for all projects, not each individual project. (The good thing is that the Bills are at the top of the list when it comes to potential stadium projects in the immediate future, but some teams may want to do some minor upgrades over the next couple of years, and that could dig into the allowed contribution a bit. Grants are reviewed and awarded case-by-case, and with the owners being so adamant about the Bills becoming bigger contributors to the total league revenue, I would think that the Bills are given some leway there, and other teams' potential upgrades would be put off to allow more funds to the Bills project.).

 

Part of the revenue increase is due to the opening of stadiums in Atlanta and Minnesota, and stadiums opening in Las Vegas and Los Angeles are on the horizon (scheduled for 2020 season). In order to be granted the full $250 mil for a renovation, league revenue would have to be roughly $16.7 bil. With the most expensive PSLs for the Rams estimated to be between $175,000 and $225,000, total league revenue in 2020 could be more than $16 bil. 

 

Also worth noting is that the current CBA expires after the 2020 season, and there's no guarantee that the G-4 program will continue under the new agreement. Then again, it was revised from the G-3 of the previous CBA, so it's just as possible that the league revises the G-4, and that league contribution could increase with the new CBA. Perhaps the loomig expiration of the CBA, and uncertainty of the new CBA, has something to do with why the stadium talk from Goodell and the league began a few years ago in the first place???

 

Thanks for adding this absolutely gives some really good accurate facts I just didn't have the time to completely address. I meant to add inflation piece into it which is why when I did my guesstimate I had the figure at at least $700 million. I don't think Buffalo would do the premium stuff and even I would acknowledge that figure is probably pretty loose.

9 hours ago, matter2003 said:

People are already there all day and sometimes the day before and the day before that tailgating...

 

Maybe building other stuff to do is whats needed at other places but that most assuredly is not needed here.

 

I understand the tailgating and I understand the passion for it it is great piece of our culture as fans. In my younger days we got there before 7 and stayed past 6 so I get that desire.

 

What you have to consider though is not everyone wants to tailgate, if you have a family having things to do or places to go that aren't the parking lot is something that matters. For people who have no desire to tailgate in the cold having a nice bar or restaurant available adds to their experience and they would go earlier instead of just showing up before kickoff.

 

You have to view the stadium in a broad sense not just what you and I do. The Bills will still have tailgating, but they will want to give other options so instead of 70% of the fanbase tailgating its more 45-50% and the others are doing the Bills experience or at establishments that cater to their wants and needs.

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

As much as I wish the Bills would have a new stadium built to play in, I know it's not feasible. 

Buffalo just doesn't have the population or they high-end demographic that could really justify the expense, and using tax payer money is always a raw deal for the locals.

If the population of the metro area consisted of more wealthy people, with a large upper middle-class and higher, it would probably be ok even if the population was small. But since the average income is so low, and there isn't a high demand for luxury suites or corporations to shell out a lot of money for large groups of season tickets, a new stadium would probably not attract the amount of money needed to make the investment worth it.

And unless there's a roof tacked on, the stadium still won't be full during the winter just like every other year (people tend to believe that we always sell out regardless of weather, or if we have a winning team, but even during the Kelly era, plenty of seats remained empty at that time). 

I think the best bet would be going for a cheaper, smaller, better quality venue like Pittsburgh. Even adjusted for inflation, the Heinz Field costed only $529 million to build. Or we could attempt something like the Cardinals, which built their stadium for $661 million (adjusted for inflation). Either way, just due to being in NY, the costs will be higher, but there's no reason the stadium has to hit $1 billion or get anywhere close to that.

 

 

John Warrow tweeted out that whether its a new stadium or renovation the figure is around $540 million. Either way money has to be spent the discussion will focus on will center on which way to go.

 

A new stadium is feasible but it will have to be done in a model that works for everyone. Your points on PIT and ARZ are the way I think they will end up going.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

22 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Thanks for adding this absolutely gives some really good accurate facts I just didn't have the time to completely address. I meant to add inflation piece into it which is why when I did my guesstimate I had the figure at at least $700 million. I don't think Buffalo would do the premium stuff and even I would acknowledge that figure is probably pretty loose.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense to leave out some of the costly bells and whistles that other stadiums have. It would obviously make the project cheaper and more feasible, and would also cater more to the general Bills fan. But yeah, a new stadium could be done for around $500-600 mil without a roof, or $700-800 mil with one, but I believe it would have to be in OP for that to be possible. Anything downtown will cost much more just from infrastructure alone.

1 hour ago, zonabb said:

 

Good piece. I've worked in development and upper level govt in this region and have friends who were heavily involved in some recent stadium construction jobs. The issue that is mentioned in passing but I think critically important as it relates to cost is infrastructure. This is what drives total stadium costs sneakily up. And it's why the most cost-effective new stadium location is across the street from the current stadium. The infrastructure costs alone in downtown Buffalo would be enormous. The City's sewer and water system is antiquated and has limited capacity to add a stadium to. Those two systems alone would cost tens of millions if not over $100m to not just install on site but improve and upgrade capacity off site. More costly would be necessary improvements to the existing transportation system. Right now there is not a spot downtown that can handle the auto traffic, both the roadway and signal systems but the parking availability. We're talking improving interchanges and the existing street network... hundreds of millions. 

 

Then there is the costs no one is talking about downtown.... property acquisition. Yes the Pegulas have money, but I've looked at the sites people have talked about and proposed, including those coming out of the stadium working group a few years back. We're talking many, many parcels needed. Each with different owners. So the Pegulas can try to buy them all up using shell LLCs to shield the fact the purchases are for a stadium, hoping to keep the prices down. But that won't last long, one person doing homework on LLCs can connect the dots and expose the intent, driving up costs. Then there's the potential for hold out owners, possibly requiring the use of eminent domain, which the Pegulas can't use they'd need city to do it. That's a tough sell for the city to likely be asked to absorb costs for the new stadium and take people's property for it. The potential legal fight over eminent domain could push the construction off years.

 

So alone the non-stadium costs for a downtown stadium already put it 100s of millions above building across the street from the Ralph. With money hard to come buy, a cheaper solution rather than a geographic solution is likely. Unless a similar site elsewhere shows up where limited new infrastructure upgrades are needed, I can't see a new stadium anywhere but on Abbott. 

 

The water table isn't an issue. The foundations/piles for existing downtown buildings prove that the water table issue is non-existent. In fact, most major world cities are built on the water....NYC, London, Tokyo, Dubai...   Engineering solves that problem and the seasonally high water table in Orchard Park is only a few feet below surface. Basically the subsurface design of the Ralph is a concrete bowl keeping water out and then supplemented with site graded draining and likely some collection and pump system. 

 

 

 

 

Excellent post!

[SoCal Deek]

21 hours ago, row_33 said:

great work, OP!

 

what's the diff in costs for a project of this magnitude between "right to work" states and New York State?

 

In California the difference between what we call Prevailing Wage and non-union scale is about 20%.  So a public work project costs approximately 20% more than the same project built by a private entity without tax dollars. 

[Roger Goodell]

I look forward to addressing the future stadium needs in Buffalo through a productive partnership between state and local officials, the Bills and NFL.

[row_33]

21 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

Great question and I honestly couldn't provide the answer to this without researching it.

 

I'm an accountant, last year sat through a few investment pitches bragging that a given state has basically no worker rights or wage constraints.

 

I see Georgia and Arizona and Texas are right to work states, NY sure isn't.

 

 

[corta765]

Just want to thank everyone for their input this has been a really healthy and civil discussion that has a lot of create points and arguments. It would be fun someday to do a TBD summit for a day with different topics to discuss.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I still believe that the best route to financing a new stadium for the bills is partnering with Ub. This should open up a lot of different ways to play with the money needed. 

Or if you wanted to get really creative a facility that could house both the bills and sabres would be awesome. There is a lot of ways to go with new stadium talks

 

 

 

[cba fan]

37 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

I still believe that the best route to financing a new stadium for the bills is partnering with Ub. This should open up a lot of different ways to play with the money needed. 

Or if you wanted to get really creative a facility that could house both the bills and sabres would be awesome. There is a lot of ways to go with new stadium talks

 

 

 

That would be pretty cool and unprecedented.

 

You would think it would save some money by sharing suites, restaurants, fan areas, seats, parking, concession areas, concourse areas etc etc... I assume this would guarantee a dome then, witch would be a big plus. Having that Vikings Teflon clear roof over a hockey rink would be cool also.

 

Would be really curious how that would look with artist renderings. Would not want a modern cookie cutter stadium like those baseball/football round bowls they use to make in 70's. I would think architects are more skilled and open minded today and could make something good.

Edited May 25, 2018 by cba fan

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

 

..here is an interesting post from fellow TBD'er that was in another thread......his calculations took it down to estimated ticket price increase....if my calculations are correct, interest payments are $30 mil/yr, an expense that affects the income statement.....the principal portion or debt service must be factored into cash flow (around $12 mil).....relying on his ticket price increase calculations, how or if does Buffalo/WNY support those numbers?....

 

 

  On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, Dalton said:

So a bit of math:

 

Stadium cost:                    $750 Million

Down Payment:                 $160 Millions (20%)

 

Useful life of Stadium:      30 years (very conservative)

Interest Rate:                      4%

 

Yearly Payments:               $42,967,368  

# events:                              10

Tickets sold/event:            75,000 

Cost per ticket:                   $57/game excluding down payment cost

 

So is the fan base willing to pay and additional $57 per game all other things being equal?

[SoCal Deek]

I can tell you this....$57 per ticket will seem like a lot less in 30 years.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I can tell you this....$57 per ticket will seem like a lot less in 30 years.

 

...look where these $1-$2+ billion dollar mausoleums are built, in MAJOR markets with huge corporate presence...... ...Niners was $1.3 billion...Rams started at $2.6 billion........Cowgirls was $1.3 billion...check out the PSL's and ticket prices......astronomical..... I would not consider Indianapolis to be a major metro market, so the Colts was $720 mil or $808 million 2016 dollars, far more reasonable and conducive to economy of scale....our 20 person suite at "The Hat" would be three times as much in any of the major markets...we'd be out in a nanosecond at that number....downtown location would not work IMO due to the necessary infrastructure improvements needed, especially transportation....if the Feds had to get involved with funding, stadium may be ready by 2041.....moving quickly is not in their vocabulary....

Edited May 25, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[SoCal Deek]

Old Time Guy

 

I'm always amused by the armchair developers on here.  All of this will get sorted out in due time, by people who are in the actual drivers seat.  I'm in no way opposed to the discussion, but what Joe Fan has to say about it will have little impact.  At some point the Bills will need to have a stadium upgrade.  On that, we can all agree!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

21 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Old Time Guy

 

I'm always amused by the armchair developers on here.  All of this will get sorted out in due time, by people who are in the actual drivers seat.  I'm in no way opposed to the discussion, but what Joe Fan has to say about it will have little impact.  At some point the Bills will need to have a stadium upgrade.  On that, we can all agree!

 

..thanks bud.....there as SO MANY factors to consider....despite Pegula's wealth, why would he personally pony up the money for the stadium and assume the financial exposure?...he may partially invest, but he'll sure as hell want some ROI on his investment in the form of interest even if he deferred payments.....keep in mind under RW ownership, the Bills had ZERO debt service (Principal loan pmts) or related interest expense (affects your profit and loss statement) as well as the same for any amortized franchise fees including the same debt service and interest....he paid 25 grand for the franchise in 1960...Carolina just sold for $2.3 billion...think Tepper forks that over in cash?......as a corporate CFO for the last 42 years, I look at the ENTIRE proposed stadium venture from ALL angles as if it was me......

Edited May 25, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[SoCal Deek]

Old Time

 

I too am a long time CEO. The stadium dance will be complicated. If it was easy it would already be done. Business logic would suggest that Buffalo NY is not going to be in a position to afford a showpiece stadium. It’s a small market, blue collar economy. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. Whether it’s a new facility or a renovated New Era, The home of the Bills should reflect the WNY community.

[Saxum]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:10 PM, BillsfanAZ said:

I like going back to Buffalo and going to Bills games. The only issue I have with the stadium is how narrow the concourses are. It is a nightmare to navigate the beer line mixing with the bathroom lines. 

 

So what you are saying is Bills should promote fans going on diet? It would be cheaper option.

 

I am a relatively big guy  (6')  and never found them crowded but I rarely drink when in stadium so generally only use bathrooms when I get there so did not find concourses too narrow.  But I find from my poor upbringing that the higher prices are the less likely I am to buy something and stadium prices in general will do that to me.

 

Biggest issue I see for new stadium is desire to move it downtown to try to make it more than a weekend event and any such attempt will drive away customers taking away tailgating ruining any cost model depending upon volume.  At the current location, capped or not capped (ironic a stadium without a cap being named after a cap company), it will never be a big event. Green Bay stadium is located in heart of area and is easier to attract visitors and forget things like P*triots Pl*ce which are surrounded by customers which love to overpay. 

 

The Bills stadium needs to be designed for volume, renovated or new, with good sight lines (fans will not pay for obstructed views like in Cardinals' and Washington's stadiums.  Issue is transportation system and snow.  The transportation system needs to be upgraded and the Bills are not going to be able to get state to seize lands to widen or add roads so best way to handle this is by having an express lane added (there is room for one lane on major roads in) with shuttles using to parking lots closer to major roadways. Perhaps the state/county will own them and these can be used as supplemental parking for malls or other uses. Freeing up parking space will be necessary on any renovation or as has been done elsewhere, a new stadium on current parking lot.  Having the deal again with Amtrak would help with transportation as well.  Freeing up space would help with other problem - where to put snow.

 

 

 

 

On 5/24/2018 at 12:19 PM, LabattBlue said:

They might get more fans at a Bills HoF if the stadium was downtown(attached to the stadium).  Out in OP,  only the biggest diehards are making a special trip to visit it...especially in the dead of winter.

 

Yes and it would drive many away since tailgating would go away.

On 5/24/2018 at 12:47 PM, dpberr said:

Part of that pressure I'm sure comes from the salary cap mindset of the owners -  "Well I had to invest *my* money into a new stadium, so the rest of your billionaires should have to as well."

 

No pressure from some owners since state paid for almost all of it.  If they can get someone else to pay I am sure The Pegulas would have no issues with a new stadium.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:12 PM, Cheektowaga Chad said:

I still believe that the best route to financing a new stadium for the bills is partnering with Ub. This should open up a lot of different ways to play with the money needed. 

Or if you wanted to get really creative a facility that could house both the bills and sabres would be awesome. There is a lot of ways to go with new stadium talks

 

 

 

 

UB could sure use a new barn.  Syracuse is getting state money to fix up their stadium, and they're a private school.