Stadium Construction Facts & Figures

[dpberr]

The NFL and the NFL owners will continue to apply generous pressure to the Pegulas to build a new stadium, regardless of the facts  and issues efficiently detailed above.  

 

Part of that pressure I'm sure comes from the salary cap mindset of the owners -  "Well I had to invest *my* money into a new stadium, so the rest of your billionaires should have to as well."

 

Question:  Would the stadium of the future have less seats to watch the game live and more restaurants/bars/entertainment infrastructure on "campus" where  watching the game is part of the experience but not the entirety of it?  Instead of watching the game in the stands, you'd have lunch and bar at the on-campus Bills restaurant where you can watch the game *with* Bills greats and even Bills not-so greats for some variety.  ?

 

 

[Haslett_Stomp]

Thanks OP.  I have read articles about stadium costs in the past that have made my eyes glaze over.  Nicely done!

[corta765]

7 minutes ago, dpberr said:

The NFL and the NFL owners will continue to apply generous pressure to the Pegulas to build a new stadium, regardless of the facts  and issues efficiently detailed above.  

 

Part of that pressure I'm sure comes from the salary cap mindset of the owners -  "Well I had to invest *my* money into a new stadium, so the rest of your billionaires should have to as well."

 

Question:  Would the stadium of the future have less seats to watch the game live and more restaurants/bars/entertainment infrastructure on "campus" where  watching the game is part of the experience but not the entirety of it?  Instead of watching the game in the stands, you'd have lunch and bar at the on-campus Bills restaurant where you can watch the game *with* Bills greats and even Bills not-so greats for some variety.  ?

 

 

 

Good points and excellent question. From the major writers and things I've read I would expect Buffalo probably to move down to 68-69k capacity wise. Not a major drop but a little more I would think to help make tickets slightly more competitive to get price wise. I have been of the belief since the Pegula's start buying buildings downtown they are aiming for a downtown move and absolutely believe they would build a Bills campus like you said. Kraft and Pegula talk a bunch and I don't think its any secret he would want something like patriot place downtown. He already has some of the things set like the Labatt tasting house coming plus 716 and harborcenter. Add a few more things when the stadium comes and he is golden.

[BadLandsMeanie]

That was a great article you wrote. Thank you.

 

We can afford a stadium. But if my name was Pegula I wouldn't want to share ownership of it with the state or county.

Because what we can't afford is a giant modern stadium that gets used 10 days a year. We can afford one that gets used a lot just fine.

I could make money on it.

 

Of the 32 teams the Raiders are the only ones who have a clear advantage of location over us , now that they are moving to Vegas.

 

I wish they would let me build the stadium.

 

But since they won't I am just fine with New Era and I like it. Except for more bathrooms and they used bolts that are too long on some of the seats and they poke my knees. I would put in correctly sized shorter bolts, and more bathrooms.

 

 

 

 

 

[MJS]

I think it would be cool to keep New Era Field. Update it like Lambeau Field.

[wagon127]

Thank you, this is such a well constructed post. This is very much believeable, and I cant wait to see what they decide to do in 2022.

[Just Joshin']

Nice write-up - thanks.

 

If you take the emotion out and just look at the financials, a stadium usually does not make economic sense unless in a thriving, metropolitan community.  If it was you money, would you invest in a new stadium?

 

The hatch is you need a stadium or having a team is irrelevant.  I suspect the route will be an extensive refurbishment, not new to minimize the loss.

[row_33]

great work, OP!

 

what's the diff in costs for a project of this magnitude between "right to work" states and New York State?

 

[yungmack]

Really enjoyed your report. Just wondering if you have any insider connections or if this is just from solid research.

[HOUSE]

There are $50,000 worth of empty beer cans after each and every game

 

Pick em up

[corta765]

20 minutes ago, yungmack said:

Really enjoyed your report. Just wondering if you have any insider connections or if this is just from solid research.

 

Just a lot of research. I was always interested in city planning almost did that for my masters degree (did education to help the kids instead, Go kids! haha). Anywho I was always fascinated with the new stadiums from designs, proposals, politics etc.. Once I got a little older and understood the whole nature of the stadium process I just read a lot of articles from various sources local news, deadspin which links pretty well with the issues, major reports, local reporters, etc. When they released the stadium site report I read the whole thing and from there I have just been carefully putting together the pieces the best I can.

 

I thought yesterday was a very interesting demarcation point because it is step 1 in my eyes with the game between the team and government when Kim said they didn't have the money to do the entire project solo. 2019 will be a pivotal year for the whole stadium debate because it takes approximately 3 years to typically build a new stadium meaning by 2020 they need to have things signed and construction started. I expect more will happen over the course of this year.

[beerme1]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 I went to the Bills game in Atlanta last season, and so many Atlanta fans were in the clubs instead of their seats that for a lot of the time you couldn't tell which team was the home team, because the noise seemed more or less equal.   That's a bad thing.   At New Era, there are no distractions - it's all about football.  

 

 

I would disagree with you a little bit on this. Our three club sections are quite busy inside with fans choosing to sit inside and watch our game and all the others on tv for long stretches during the games. So we do it to but we don't have the quality of clubs that an Atlanta has in their new digs. Drives me nuts that folks spend so much time in the club rather than their seat actually lol.

 

Corta, your post was an outstanding one. Great job! Thank you

Edited May 24, 2018 by beerme1

[corta765]

36 minutes ago, row_33 said:

great work, OP!

 

what's the diff in costs for a project of this magnitude between "right to work" states and New York State?

 

 

Great question and I honestly couldn't provide the answer to this without researching it.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Good post! A couple things should be noted (I've done a lot of homework in the past regarding the subject and G-4 program).

 

Using the Lions and Colts stadium models should be used as a basis for design only. The cost for a new stadium for the Bills (if it were the exact replica of one of those buildings; obviously, it won't be) would be different for a couple key reasons.

 

Infrastructure cost is based on the site. The changes that would be necessary for a stadium in downtown Buffalo would be different than it was for those projects, which would have a significant impact on the total cost for the Bills project. What's unknown is whether it would require more or less work than those projects required.

 

Also, inflation. Lucas Oil was $720 mil, but that was 10 years ago. If built exactly the same today, that project would cost more than $800 mil, more than 10% more expensive due to inflation.

 

(IRG to your renovation guess figures) One of the provisions in the G-4 program requires the team to match the league contribution. If the league grants $250 mil for a renovation, the Bills cannot contribute $125 mil, it has to be equal.

 

Also, another provision in the program relates to the total league revenue. It states that up to $200 mil for new stadium/$250 mil for renovations, but there's also a limit of 1.5% of total league revenue in a given year. In 2016, that figure was over $13 bil, and it's estimated that it was over $14 bil last year. At $14 bil even, the max contribution from the league would be $210 mil, and that would be for all projects, not each individual project. (The good thing is that the Bills are at the top of the list when it comes to potential stadium projects in the immediate future, but some teams may want to do some minor upgrades over the next couple of years, and that could dig into the allowed contribution a bit. Grants are reviewed and awarded case-by-case, and with the owners being so adamant about the Bills becoming bigger contributors to the total league revenue, I would think that the Bills are given some leway there, and other teams' potential upgrades would be put off to allow more funds to the Bills project.).

 

Part of the revenue increase is due to the opening of stadiums in Atlanta and Minnesota, and stadiums opening in Las Vegas and Los Angeles are on the horizon (scheduled for 2020 season). In order to be granted the full $250 mil for a renovation, league revenue would have to be roughly $16.7 bil. With the most expensive PSLs for the Rams estimated to be between $175,000 and $225,000, total league revenue in 2020 could be more than $16 bil. 

 

Also worth noting is that the current CBA expires after the 2020 season, and there's no guarantee that the G-4 program will continue under the new agreement. Then again, it was revised from the G-3 of the previous CBA, so it's just as possible that the league revises the G-4, and that league contribution could increase with the new CBA. Perhaps the loomig expiration of the CBA, and uncertainty of the new CBA, has something to do with why the stadium talk from Goodell and the league began a few years ago in the first place???

Edited May 25, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[Big Turk]

People are already there all day and sometimes the day before and the day before that tailgating...

 

Maybe building other stuff to do is whats needed at other places but that most assuredly is not needed here.

Edited May 25, 2018 by matter2003

[Fadingpain]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

I think it would be cool to keep New Era Field. Update it like Lambeau Field.

An updated Rich Stadium for nearly the cost of a new one would be asinine.

 

First and foremost b/c a new stadium would allow a change of location.

 

It should be in downtown Buffalo, and not where it is now.

 

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

5 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

An updated Rich Stadium for nearly the cost of a new one would be asinine.

 

First and foremost b/c a new stadium would allow a change of location.

 

It should be in downtown Buffalo, and not where it is now.

 

 

 

A new stadium in downtown Buffalo would cost far more than a total renovation of New Era...roughly double. And it could be more, depending on what accommodations are built around the stadium.

 

I'm sure that a downtown stadium is the ideal plan for the Pegulas, but that may not be feasible financially. A renovation is feasible, although probably not their first choice.

 

That, and just how much the Pegulas are willing to pitch in are the main issues here. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[Rochesterfan]

Nice write up - the one thing missing in it is the new gambling regulations.

 

I think if NYS allows some form of gambling and casino activity - that plays a big part in a downtown decision.  I think that makes it much more likely they build a stadium with additional features downtown and attach restaurants, casino, convention center, and hotels to the property.

 

There is already a casino down there, but being able to build and draw downtown makes so much sense and if the city, state, and county can get funds from whatever gambling they add - that makes more likely to get done.  Especially if they add a small sin tax - to alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, and eventually leagalized marijuana.

 

The state has some new options coming up to get additional revenue it just depends upon how quickly the jump on board.

 

Overall - I really do not think there is any true decision to be made - a new stadium makes to much sense over renovation and a downtown location with all that is going on drives everything.  It will be a major change to tailgating, but offers a lot of attractive pluses for people both in and out of the area.

[mrags]

I believe you did very wel with this post OP. But I think you left out some things and are lowballing the costs a little bit. Clearwater Cadet has a very good point about fracking and I believe that may come into play. 

 

It will/May be a multi point deal to get this done and fracking may be the key. 

 

Without doing a ton of research like you have:

a new stadium will likely be near the $1B range. Give or take about $200m. The Pegulas will end up fronting almost the entirety of the bill for the stadium. In return they will receive all of the benefits and profits from the newly built Pegulaville located where Buffalo used to be. Also in return, they will receive some benefits of fracking in the state of New York.

But most importantly, for them, and more so for the city and surrounding areas of Pegulaville, they will benefit from the city, county, and state, funding a massive overhaul of the infrastructure of the city of Pegulaville. The skyway will be the first to go. Highways and road repair, additional ways in, out, and around the city. Including a subway system that has more than 7 stops in a straight line down the center of town. Add in locations/hubs at UB North Campus, the 90/290 split at the tolls/Park N Ride, Galleria Mall/Millenium Hotel, Boulevard Mall area/290 NFB, OP, Peace Bridge, Tonawandas/riverfront, possibly Grand Island, and finally Niagara Falls.

 

The project will cost upwards of $1B overtime. But if you want to get treated like a big city, you act like one. 

 

Also, I have a friend that works for a rather large construction company that builds  hospitals, schools, and stadiums among other things, that has already been in talk with the Pegulas and the city of Buffalo and have been positioning themselves with another local construction company to earn the business once it becomes available. 

[BigDingus]

As much as I wish the Bills would have a new stadium built to play in, I know it's not feasible. 

Buffalo just doesn't have the population or they high-end demographic that could really justify the expense, and using tax payer money is always a raw deal for the locals.

If the population of the metro area consisted of more wealthy people, with a large upper middle-class and higher, it would probably be ok even if the population was small. But since the average income is so low, and there isn't a high demand for luxury suites or corporations to shell out a lot of money for large groups of season tickets, a new stadium would probably not attract the amount of money needed to make the investment worth it.

And unless there's a roof tacked on, the stadium still won't be full during the winter just like every other year (people tend to believe that we always sell out regardless of weather, or if we have a winning team, but even during the Kelly era, plenty of seats remained empty at that time). 

I think the best bet would be going for a cheaper, smaller, better quality venue like Pittsburgh. Even adjusted for inflation, the Heinz Field costed only $529 million to build. Or we could attempt something like the Cardinals, which built their stadium for $661 million (adjusted for inflation). Either way, just due to being in NY, the costs will be higher, but there's no reason the stadium has to hit $1 billion or get anywhere close to that.