Stadium Construction Facts & Figures

[corta765]

So after yesterday's comments by Kim Pegula I wanted to out line some facts and figures for everyone. This in no way is a prediction of any form minus at the end, its just giving you a lot of information to digest in regards to building a new stadium if it were to happen.

 

New Era (The Ralph)

The Ralph underwent a $130 million dollar renovation in 2013 which is also when the ten year lease was signed. The state invested around $54 million during this renovation with the Bills covering the other half. Additionally the Bills are currently renovating the suites and club areas with their own money which should be completed for this season.

 

Despite the investment in 2013 the Ralph is in need of a major overhaul which has been estimated around $450-540 million dollars. The team knows this, the state knows this, and the NFL of course knows this. As John Warrow from the AP news tweeted yesterday that is where the major decision lies because a new stadium is not that much more money wise, but the major players have to agree in unity in either regard to make it happen.

 

Some of you are probably asking why the Ralph would cost that much after renovations a few years ago. The Ralph by 2023 will be 50 years old (pretty cool) and like any aging structure they need to do massive structural updates so it can last long term. The recent renovations were designed to improve the physical plant and concrete for the short term, but if you want the stadium for another 30 years plus it needs an overhaul physically. Additionally the stadium has an awful electrical layout which is why the Bills have trouble getting night games. It is a complete bear for the TV crews etc.. to set the place up compared to other stadiums. A lot of people bring up Lambeau Field that its perfectly fine but don't realize the Packers and county have spent  over $520 million in renovations since the early 2000's on with $140 million in 2015 to add more expansion to the stadium.

 

Stadium's themselves are now not just about the game but the surrounding experience. Teams are now building stadiums with the intention of keeping fans there all day or evening plus bringing fans there on non game days with shops, restaurants, etc... If you have ever been to Patriot Place in NE it has a mini mall, restaurants, and movie theater which fans can go and watch the game on game day. Now if the Bills stay at the Ralph would they do all of that? Probably not all of it but they certainly would add some of those features so fans who don't tailgate all day or come from out of town. The Atlanta Braves opened a new stadium last year which is being viewed sports wide as the future for stadium building in owners eyes. They have created a massive area like Patriot Place that also includes a hotel, business park, and shops for people. Sports owners are now viewing stadiums as just a piece to a potential goldmine in real estate development.The Pegula's do seem to have a strong handle on what would work in Buffalo and like I said I doubt if a new stadium happened its to that extreme, but that is now the gold standard.

 

Stadium Cost

People understandably have a shuttered reaction when they hear a new stadium because of recent billion dollar projects in Dallas, Minnesota, San Francisco & Atlanta. But the majority of stadiums constructed during the last two decades in the NFL have fallen between $500-750 million dollars. Yes absolutely that is a lot of money but I will cover funding below. The types of stadiums mentioned that the Bills may model after if they build new are indoor stadiums like Detroit $658 million, Indianapolis $792 million (also a convention center though used more regularly) and outdoor stadiums like Pittsburgh $376 million and Seattle $515 million. Additionally Arizona's beautiful stadium actually was $515 million which even I was kinda stunned at given how unique it is and because its already hosted two Super Bowls. The NFL doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl if you build a new stadium, but generally the more expensive the better chance you may get one assuming it has a dome.

 

The Bills Outer Harbor proposal back in 2014 by local leaders was estimated at 1.4 million but that included the stadium, new convention center, hotels, restaurants, and a sports museum plus the infrastructure costs. That fell by the way side once the Pegula's bought the team and guaranteed the teams long term viability here plus it would've been a traffic disaster out there.

 

The three big things that typically effect a stadiums cost are the size, infrastructure, and the type of roof. It makes sense that the bigger the stadium the more expensive because a lot of time these stadiums include restaurants and other shops on premise. Additionally the premium club areas really add to the cost given the amenities they typically have. Cities like Seattle, Pittsburgh, & Detroit do not have nearly the amount of club areas compared to places like San Fran and Minnesota which is why the costs are lower. IF the Pegula's play to the market correctly and focus on the general fan not the premium stuff that would help limit these costs. Additionally recent stadiums in places like NYC, Dallas, & San Francisco are in cities where the cost of construction is higher just in general which inflates the cost. The roof is always a big deal with construction. With no roof it certainly helps to keep the cost lowered because its just less area to need to build with but you limit what you can do year round. I doubt if the Bills decide to build new that they don't have a roof so if that happens it comes down to whether the roof is retractable, whether it just covers like in Detroit, or whether its a natural light gallery such as the Vikings stadium. The cheapest would be doing the Detroit model of just a nice roof with skylights on the sides, but I personally think you'd see something more expensive like the Vikings new glass gallery they constructed.

 

Funding (cue the ominous music)

This is everyone's favorite part to argue and get upset about but I will try to explain this the best I can. Funding for new stadiums differs literally state to state due to the different laws each state has. The Chargers moved from San Diego partially because any tax increase or bond issued for a stadium had to be approved by at least a 66.7% majority in the area. In their case they were going to increase the hotel tax from 12% to 16% and it failed miserably. In New York State though the leadership non surprisingly can more or less agree without public approval to increases. Yankee Stadium & Citi Field were funded by 1.8 billion in state and city money when they were constructed (just an FYI for those opposed to a new stadium because we have to pay well guess what we had to pay for two stadiums none of us use so it sucks in general haha). Depending on the owner/team the type of stadium proposal for the government changes in how it is funded. Some markets will issue low interest bonds which are typically the best way to avoid tax payer issues that are paid back over a 20-25 year period. Other markets like Cleveland added a Sin Tax to things like alcohol and tobacco by a few percentages to help during their Gateway project in the 1990s that funded their stadiums. A lot of times teams want the majority of government help to come for infrastructure surrounding the stadium with roads, highways, parking, etc.. to be improved and covered.

 

The major horror stories in stadium funding come when cities/gov pledge to invest massive amounts of money on tax increases that are not sustainable which in turn force the cities to have to cut services to public entities. The Bengals fleeced Hamilton County by threatening to move in the late 90s which saw the county front the cost of almost the entire stadium. They pay now 10 million a year or 16.4% of their budget for the stadium and in 2011 had to cut a tax rollback due to a budget shortage. Stadium deals in general are never great but having politicians who can skillfully fight is very important so whatever deal comes limits or absolves the tax payer of any cost. The Vikings new stadium was funded with a hospitality tax and a half a percent sales tax increase. It limited the debt on the tax payer but still forced money that could go to the city for other projects to be done for a stadium.

 

A major reason for why more stadiums are constructed now and why the NFL encourages it so heavily is their former G-3 program and current G-4 program. Long story short the G3 program saw the NFL willing to match up to $150 million dollar for dollar in stadium cost to the teams contribution so $300 million from the NFL/Team. The league by 2011 realized it was too much from the league coffers and modified the program with the G-4 program which loans an NFL team up to $200 million for a new stadium and $250 million for stadium renovation. The major sticking point is the project either way has to be a public/private partnership to be eligible. A plus side to this is a team receiving G-4 funds cannot relocate from their city. The project also has to be at least $400 million to receive the top level loan funding which is why many of the stadium costs recently have sky rocketed in construction. There are additional provisions that give better loan credit if there are PSL's but keep in mind comparable markets like Indianapolis & Detroit did not use PSL's for their new stadiums and Pittsburgh & Cleveland had them at about $250-300 on the low end.

 

New Stadium Cost vs New Era Reno Guesstimated Breakdown:

Just a quick tid bit before my cost guess. When the stadium committee released its report on sites and types of stadium designs back in the mid 2010's a key point between indoor stadium vs outdoor stadium was usage. If the stadium was outdoor the usage would be between 20-30 times a year for major events. But if the stadium was indoor it opened the possibility up to more in the 50-60 times a year usage. I believe this will be a major point when the discussion comes in a few years. Anyway here are my soft guesstimates on what the cost breakdown could be for a new stadium vs reno:

 

New Stadium

NFL Loan program: $200 million

Buffalo Bills: $200 million

State: $150 million

Erie County: $100 million (mixture of lease repayment and some small hotel or sales tax increase)

City: $50 million (Bond to be repaid over 25 years)

Total: $700 million

My guesstimate is based on the stadium being downtown next to the Sabres arena where they have a lot of parking, PSE headquarters, Labatt Tasting house, and other new construction being built. I don't believe the Pegula's are a Synder or Brown type that would fleece the region and the expected investment will be more on the roads and highways in the city. Additionally Poloncarz has been pretty strong about protecting the tax payers while working to make the lease fair for all sides so I don't foresee a hit to tax payers.

 

New Era Field (Ralph)

NFL Loan program: $250 million

Buffalo Bills: $125 million

State: $100 million

Erie County: $75 million (mixture of lease repayment and some small hotel or sales tax increase)

Total: $550 million

There will still have to be investment locally on this but it would be less then downtown. I am curious how much Orchard Park may try to pull to keep the team in OP for tax reasons. These figures more or less full in line with what has been projected for the stadium and what has been spent in the past with increase for all sides reasonable to what has previously been spent.

 

Thanks for reading here are some of the articles I referenced from:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/790924/nfl-stadiums-construction-costs-to-build-most-expensive/

http://www.greenberglawoffice.com/nfl-credit-facility-has-made-possible-new-state-of-the-art-stadiums/

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2012/11/15/sports/nfl-personal-seat-licenses-compared

[MarlinTheMagician]

I really don't want a new stadium!  Love The Ralph.  

[SF Bills Fan]

Wow- great analysis. It is interesting when a figure if a billion plus for a new stadium in Buffalo gets used, but I agree with you that it won't be nearly that much unless it's part of a larger complex. I'm not opposed to a full rebuild/rehab of New Era like Arrowhead underwent. 

[Shaw66]

Corta -

 

That's fantastic!    Thanks.   I generally don't read the articles about a new stadium, because I don't know what to believe.   This is a superb summary.

 

One thing I'll add:   I don't think WNY can support a stadium with a lot of club seats and other entertainment areas, like Dallas and Atlanta did.   Beyond not supporting it, I think making the facility the centerpiece detracts from interest in the team.   I went to the Bills game in Atlanta last season, and so many Atlanta fans were in the clubs instead of their seats that for a lot of the time you couldn't tell which team was the home team, because the noise seemed more or less equal.   That's a bad thing.   At New Era, there are no distractions - it's all about football.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by Shaw66

[corta765]

4 minutes ago, SF Bills Fan said:

Wow- great analysis. It is interesting when a figure if a billion plus for a new stadium in Buffalo gets used, but I agree with you that it won't be nearly that much unless it's part of a larger complex. I'm not opposed to a full rebuild/rehab of New Era like Arrowhead underwent. 

 

Thank you. The premium stuff from the clubs, massive skylights, doors opening just to let air in, massive scoreboards, and other things built on property are what really drive the insanity. Those are also done though by cities aiming for a Super Bowl something I don't think we would do.

 

I don't have an opinion currently of new or rehab like Arrowhead until more information is given. I will say after being to enough rain games that the roof doesn't bother me like others. Ironically though I love the snow go figure haha

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Corta -

 

That's fantastic!    Thanks.   I generally don't read the articles about a new stadium, because I don't know what to believe.   This is a superb summary.

 

One thing I'll add:   I don't think WNY can support a stadium with a lot of club seats and other entertainment areas, like Dallas and Atlanta did.   Beyond not supporting it, I think making the facility the centerpiece detracts from interest in the team.   I went to the Bills game in Atlanta last season, and so many Atlanta fans were in the clubs instead of their seats that for a lot of the time you couldn't tell which team was the home team, because the noise seemed more or less equal.   That's a bad thing.   At New Era, there are no distractions - it's all about football.  

 

Thanks really appreciate the kind remarks. I am sure not everything I said is perfect but I think its a decent summary.

 

Yea the club and extra stuff is what the killer is. I think the Bills if they decided to build a new stadium would be smart enough to focus on what works for their fanbase which would help lower the cost. We want a loud raucous environment, if anything a true team museum/interactive experience like Green Bay would be a better thing then club seats. I went to Miami twice now and they actually have a pretty decent stadium that isn't uber club focused which shocked me a bit.

Edited May 24, 2018 by corta765

[Virgil]

That was great.  I usually skim posts that long, but not this one. 

 

I’m torn because I love the Ralph and it’s surrounding neighborhood; that’s what gives it it’s charm to me. 

 

I visit other stadiums all the time and it feel completely different when it’s in a city.  

 

Personally, I would to see them build a new stadium, but right where the Ralph is.  Do what the Yankees did and build it next door. 

 

I don’t want a dime or anything else, just give it all the upgrades it needs and keep it as close to the original as possible.  

[US Egg]

29 minutes ago, SF Bills Fan said:

full rebuild/rehab of New Era like Arrowhead

Part of the problem is New Era stadium is on an island so to say.

 

There's no restaurants, hotels or large bar scene nearby to make it more than a day game event outside of the confines of the parking lot and stadium itself.

 

Suppose that's true of some other stadiums, but that adds a lot.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Ifartalot

[Marv's Neighbor]

Funding------que Amazing grace!

[dollars 2 donuts]

@corta765

 

This...may have been one of the best researched posts I have ever read on TSW.

 

Well done, cheers and thank you for the effort, Sir.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by dollars 2 donuts

[clearwater cadet]

Years ago there was also something about Delaware North getting involved, helping to build the stadium and then running the concessions?  There might even be some type of back door deal,  Pegula agree to build the stadium with little or no public money, NYS  gives them the right's to start fracking.  I don't think anyone really know or would say if they did.

 

New York is the only state with significant shale gas potential to ban fracking, “the most important, and the biggest, energy innovation of this century. I think there a lot more to this then we know.

[ricojes]

So, does this now mean the Pegula's aren't looking to move the team?

 

All kidding aside, that was a great post.  Good job!

[corta765]

18 minutes ago, clearwater cadet said:

Years ago there was also something about Delaware North getting involved, helping to build the stadium and then running the concessions?  There might even be some type of back door deal,  Pegula agree to build the stadium with little or no public money, NYS  gives them the right's to start fracking.  I don't think anyone really know or would say if they did.

 

New York is the only state with significant shale gas potential to ban fracking, “the most important, and the biggest, energy innovation of this century. I think there a lot more to this then we know.

 

Exactly. I have been of the belief a stadium was ready to go so if an owner that wasn't the Pegula's came in Buffalo had a fighting chance to keep the team. That waterfront project was pretty well involved and seemed to have the backing.

I have often thought DN wants a piece of this new stadium and NYS will be working very closely behind the scenes with Pegula. He has been a boon regionally for NYS thanks to his investments downtown and it has helped certain political officials greatly.

Edited May 24, 2018 by corta765

[BillsfanAZ]

I like going back to Buffalo and going to Bills games. The only issue I have with the stadium is how narrow the concourses are. It is a nightmare to navigate the beer line mixing with the bathroom lines. 

[corta765]

2 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

I like going back to Buffalo and going to Bills games. The only issue I have with the stadium is how narrow the concourses are. It is a nightmare to navigate the beer line mixing with the bathroom lines. 

 

I think from what I have read a renovation would include much wider concourses.

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

I like going back to Buffalo and going to Bills games. The only issue I have with the stadium is how narrow the concourses are. It is a nightmare to navigate the beer line mixing with the bathroom lines. 

It should all be one line.  Get your beer and chug it while you're waiting for the bathroom. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Shaw66

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

I like going back to Buffalo and going to Bills games. The only issue I have with the stadium is how narrow the concourses are. It is a nightmare to navigate the beer line mixing with the bathroom lines. 

...and that problem isn't getting fixed no matter how much money is spent on renovations at RWS.  If it doesn't help generate revenue, and costs truckloads of money, it's not getting done.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

 

Thank you. The premium stuff from the clubs, massive skylights, doors opening just to let air in, massive scoreboards, and other things built on property are what really drive the insanity. Those are also done though by cities aiming for a Super Bowl something I don't think we would do.

 

I don't have an opinion currently of new or rehab like Arrowhead until more information is given. I will say after being to enough rain games that the roof doesn't bother me like others. Ironically though I love the snow go figure haha

 

Thanks really appreciate the kind remarks. I am sure not everything I said is perfect but I think its a decent summary.

 

Yea the club and extra stuff is what the killer is. I think the Bills if they decided to build a new stadium would be smart enough to focus on what works for their fanbase which would help lower the cost. We want a loud raucous environment, if anything a true team museum/interactive experience like Green Bay would be a better thing then club seats. I went to Miami twice now and they actually have a pretty decent stadium that isn't uber club focused which shocked me a bit.

Even Green Bay is morr than WNY can support.  They get fans year round at their museum.  That wouldn't happen in Buffalo. 

 

Your post gives me hope that they can find a way to do something reasonable, particularly because serious renovations to New Era would cost nearly as much as a modest new stadium.  

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Even Green Bay is morr than WNY can support.  They get fans year round at their museum.  That wouldn't happen in Buffalo. 

 

Your post gives me hope that they can find a way to do something reasonable, particularly because serious renovations to New Era would cost nearly as much as a modest new stadium.  

They might get more fans at a Bills HoF if the stadium was downtown(attached to the stadium).  Out in OP,  only the biggest diehards are making a special trip to visit it...especially in the dead of winter.

[BillsfanAZ]

5 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

I think from what I have read a renovation would include much wider concourses.

I would be curious as to how they would do that and how long it would take. I think it goes back to the original post that they might as well build new then. 

[corta765]

10 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

They might get more fans at a Bills HoF if the stadium was downtown(attached to the stadium).  Out in OP,  only the biggest diehards are making a special trip to visit it...especially in the dead of winter.

 

That's why I think the new stadium stuff is out now. Everything the Pegula's have is downtown except for their crown jewel the Bills. Its pretty plausible that people would tour the stadium/museum downtown get lunch at 716 or Labatt tasting house and then keep cruising the waterfront for the day.