Zerovoltz Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 44 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Interesting interpretation. Really feels like you're reaching here trying to somehow stretch McDermott directly stating that Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially (and lest we forget Beane's public rebuke of the preseason draft national narrative that Allen is somehow more "raw" than the other prospects or other historical 1st round rookies) followed by the incredibly obvious statement that we're not going to put him out there unless we feel he's ready. Well duuuuhhhhh... What coach would not do that? Or what good coach would not do that? You might agree with Allen's scouting reports. But that really doesn't relate to what McDermott said and might even be counter to it. If Allen is already better than McCarron and Peterman as you concede he likely is, but he's still not ready, Beane deserves to be fired for not seriously addressing the 2018 QB position. You're massively insulting Peterman and McCarron, and if they're as bad as you seem to think they are, we're screwed. Luckily, I think you're very wrong in more ways than one here. We'll have to continue to agree to disagree.......The problem with this most recent argument of yours is that McDermott says "Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially".......well that's all well and good except nobody knows what the baseline is for any of that.....it's like calling your friend who is driving to town from Toledo...you call to see how far away they are thinking they ought to be just about to Cleveland, and instead they tell you they've made good time and are at the ohio/penn border....still far away from you, but closer than you thought....we have no idea the criteria they are talking about....has he made to cleveland or has he made it Erie? ....either way, what we KNOW the coach said was he still has a long way to go wich of course is subjective...but what isn't subjective is that the coach says he is not READY. That doesn't say anything about who the best QB on the roster is to start a game if one were played now (It's Allen) To put it another way, lets say there is a set of criteria that McDermot is working on with Allen and all of those have a rating 1-10...10 being fully developed...and overall Allen is at a 5 right now...but before he puts the kid on the field he wants to see level 7 and 8 in practice....even though McCarron is at 4 right now and Peterman is at 3. Allen is the best QB on the roster....but he isn't READY....if you have 3 qbs who all aren't ready...why not build up the actual future of the franchise and get him actually ready and burn up the expendable scrubs until he is? ....that's what is going to happen. The other 2 don't have big enough arms to overcome their lack of experience and wisdom. I expect Allen will see the field when they think he is READY....not when the other 2 prove they aren't.
Doc Brown Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 I think it's going to be Josh Allen because his arm strength and athleticism is far superior to Peterman and McCarron. I think the coaches will be enamored with his skills and conclude that the best way for him to become the potential franchise quarterback is to throw him in the fire because they think he can handle it. 2
Kelly101 Posted July 20, 2018 Posted July 20, 2018 Honestly i am rooting for JA to tear it up, just to see the anti JA haters get triggered. I will remind all the wgr bads about their baby tantrums for days over the JA hate. I swore off wgr for good after the draft and their whining. 3
transplantbillsfan Posted July 21, 2018 Author Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) On 7/19/2018 at 9:24 PM, Zerovotlz said: We'll have to continue to agree to disagree.......The problem with this most recent argument of yours is that McDermott says "Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially".......well that's all well and good except nobody knows what the baseline is for any of that.....it's like calling your friend who is driving to town from Toledo...you call to see how far away they are thinking they ought to be just about to Cleveland, and instead they tell you they've made good time and are at the ohio/penn border....still far away from you, but closer than you thought....we have no idea the criteria they are talking about....has he made to cleveland or has he made it Erie? ....either way, what we KNOW the coach said was he still has a long way to go wich of course is subjective...but what isn't subjective is that the coach says he is not READY. That doesn't say anything about who the best QB on the roster is to start a game if one were played now (It's Allen) To put it another way, lets say there is a set of criteria that McDermot is working on with Allen and all of those have a rating 1-10...10 being fully developed...and overall Allen is at a 5 right now...but before he puts the kid on the field he wants to see level 7 and 8 in practice....even though McCarron is at 4 right now and Peterman is at 3. Allen is the best QB on the roster....but he isn't READY....if you have 3 qbs who all aren't ready...why not build up the actual future of the franchise and get him actually ready and burn up the expendable scrubs until he is? ....that's what is going to happen. The other 2 don't have big enough arms to overcome their lack of experience and wisdom. I expect Allen will see the field when they think he is READY....not when the other 2 prove they aren't. Yeesh... I appreciate your logic, which would be fascinating if you didn't completely ignore mine as you simultaneously responded to it. As long as you believe Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott are on the same page (I think they are, given their history and McDermott personally seeking him out) and as long as you believe that McDermott had a big hand in making Allen a QB we needed to trade up to #7 for if it looked like we would otherwise lose, then when Beane said the following in response to a comment about Allen being "raw," and I directly quote: "A lot of these guys did not come across to us as what was nationally reported about them. I don't think that's a fair label to give him is 'raw.'" Well at that point, Allen's baseline (as you put it) is 100% not a 1 or a 2, as you seem to concede it might be because you seem to desperately want to maintain the belief that our coach and GM decided to trade into the top 10 to draft some ball of clay they would have to mould and tweak for the next year or so... but finally in 2020 we might start getting some legitimate production out of him with enough development. I dunno, maybe you're right and he's a 5 right now. After but if he's a 5 and McCarron is a 4 and Peterman is a 3... 5 >>>>>>> 4 or 3 Allen will start. Simple math in that case bro. Edited July 21, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
LeGOATski Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 45 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: 5 >>>>>>> 4 or 3 Allen will start. Simple math in that case bro. Not if we do the 2-QB system. 5+4 = 9 and 4 comes before 5, so McCarron will start first. Allen will see limited time in order to break him in, but not completely break him. We could also do the 3-QB system: 5+4+3 = Tom Brady 1
transplantbillsfan Posted July 21, 2018 Author Posted July 21, 2018 10 hours ago, LeGOATski said: Not if we do the 2-QB system. 5+4 = 9 and 4 comes before 5, so McCarron will start first. Allen will see limited time in order to break him in, but not completely break him. We could also do the 3-QB system: 5+4+3 = Tom Brady Hehe... On the off chance anyone takes your post seriously, obviously with only one QB at a time on any given play, there is no addition involved in this math problem. Instead you just take each QB on each play and average, but the total number would never go higher than 5 in this case.
Chandler#81 Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 6:59 AM, tumaro02 said: "CONVENTIONAL" = Like everyone else's wisdom. Don't have an "original" thought wisdom. Someone else's wisdom. You need to step out and think for yourself. Calm down.
WMDman Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 AJ until we make/ are unlimited from the playoffs than there’s no presssure for JA
Chandler#81 Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 3:33 AM, Doc Brown said: I think it's going to be Josh Allen because his arm strength and athleticism is far superior to Peterman and McCarron. I think the coaches will be enamored with his skills and conclude that the best way for him to become the potential franchise quarterback is to throw him in the fire because they think he can handle it. This. Of course I’m concerned he needs to grow into it and our OL is suspect, at best. But pure talent? Otherworldly skills? He has it spades over the other 2. Who gives the team the best chance to win? The players -including the QBs- already know. 1
transplantbillsfan Posted July 21, 2018 Author Posted July 21, 2018 17 minutes ago, WMDman said: AJ until we make/ are unlimited from the playoffs than there’s no presssure for JA What exactly does it mean to be "unlimited from the playoffs?"
Bangarang Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, WMDman said: AJ until we make/ are unlimited from the playoffs than there’s no presssure for JA There’s always going to be pressure. He was a top pick and is supposed to be our franchise guy.
Doc Brown Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said: This. Of course I’m concerned he needs to grow into it and our OL is suspect, at best. But pure talent? Otherworldly skills? He has it spades over the other 2. Who gives the team the best chance to win? The players -including the QBs- already know. That's a good point as there's no real loyalty to a certain QB among the rest of the team right now. The team last year was clearly with Taylor and rightfully so. If Allen shows in training camp/pre season that he has an understanding of this offense within the realm of Peterman/McCarron, I see zero reason not to start him given his far superior arm strength and scrambling abilities. That's a big IF though and I'm rooting for him to win the job. 1
GoodHands15 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Yeesh... I appreciate your logic, which would be fascinating if you didn't completely ignore mine as you simultaneously responded to it. As long as you believe Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott are on the same page (I think they are, given their history and McDermott personally seeking him out) and as long as you believe that McDermott had a big hand in making Allen a QB we needed to trade up to #7 for if it looked like we would otherwise lose, then when Beane said the following in response to a comment about Allen being "raw," and I directly quote: "A lot of these guys did not come across to us as what was nationally reported about them. I don't think that's a fair label to give him is 'raw.'" Well at that point, Allen's baseline (as you put it) is 100% not a 1 or a 2, as you seem to concede it might be because you seem to desperately want to maintain the belief that our coach and GM decided to trade into the top 10 to draft some ball of clay they would have to mould and tweak for the next year or so... but finally in 2020 we might start getting some legitimate production out of him with enough development. I dunno, maybe you're right and he's a 5 right now. After but if he's a 5 and McCarron is a 4 and Peterman is a 3... 5 >>>>>>> 4 or 3 Allen will start. Simple math in that case bro. Long time thread peruser, first time poster. I’d like to thank you all for the countless hours of mental stimulation you have been responsible for. That being said... From what I gather many of the people here seem to be leaning towards either AJ starting a few games, whatever that number may be, and then handing over the reigns to Josh Allen. Me personally. I believe even just based on his Senior Bowl development and the seemingly huge strides in his footwork, that Allen truely does have a 50/50+ shot at starting, and I would love to see that because those defenses he will be seeing will really give him an idea of what will be coming for the rest of the year/career, and really after LA, you would hope that...as far as pressure related decisions go...coaches as well as Allen himself will have A TON of high caliber film to review. And I feel as though JA has already shown an above average ability to adjust and correct problems in a rather swift fashion based on intelligence. (As shown by his tone with Palmer and the Senior bowl) As far as him losing confidence, I feel he has had enough trials and tribulations not to let a few hiccups (non-injury related) slow down his growth. It will only serve as more processible information as opposed to a reason to shy away from trying to make play. Based on how well his testing went in the wonderlic, I think one could argue that the entire NFL game could slow down for him immediately after going up against Bosa and company. —————— My vote is for Allen. But I would like to raise a question I haven’t really heard yet. IF we don’t start Allen, let’s say he is a 5-6, and we want him at 7-8 before starting...does it make sense to just go ahead and throw NP in and keep AJ an unknown for the rest of the league? I ask this because, if we assume JA will start soon enough and AJ = NP(or at least close) I would think that Beane would at least be entertaining the thought of using AJ as potential trade bait for the eventuality that someone’s QB1 goes down. QB needy teams love to overpay for bridge/fringe starters when in need—and no team would be hesitant to pick up AJM’s absurdly cheap contract in exchange for draft capital. With him being an unknown, wouldn’t that trade value stay higher than if he were to go out and have a string full of 1 TD games behind an unsettled Oline before we hand Josh the keys? I know it’s an out there question, just wondering if anyone else had considered it? All his trade value goes away especially in the event that he ends up injured while the line is getting cohesive. Does that make Nate the best bridge to preserve overall QB room value? Or does AJM just give us THAT MUCH better chance to win? Jeez. That was long. Sorry! 1
transplantbillsfan Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, GoodHands15 said: Long time thread peruser, first time poster. I’d like to thank you all for the countless hours of mental stimulation you have been responsible for. That being said... From what I gather many of the people here seem to be leaning towards either AJ starting a few games, whatever that number may be, and then handing over the reigns to Josh Allen. Me personally. I believe even just based on his Senior Bowl development and the seemingly huge strides in his footwork, that Allen truely does have a 50/50+ shot at starting, and I would love to see that because those defenses he will be seeing will really give him an idea of what will be coming for the rest of the year/career, and really after LA, you would hope that...as far as pressure related decisions go...coaches as well as Allen himself will have A TON of high caliber film to review. And I feel as though JA has already shown an above average ability to adjust and correct problems in a rather swift fashion based on intelligence. (As shown by his tone with Palmer and the Senior bowl) As far as him losing confidence, I feel he has had enough trials and tribulations not to let a few hiccups (non-injury related) slow down his growth. It will only serve as more processible information as opposed to a reason to shy away from trying to make play. Based on how well his testing went in the wonderlic, I think one could argue that the entire NFL game could slow down for him immediately after going up against Bosa and company. —————— My vote is for Allen. But I would like to raise a question I haven’t really heard yet. IF we don’t start Allen, let’s say he is a 5-6, and we want him at 7-8 before starting...does it make sense to just go ahead and throw NP in and keep AJ an unknown for the rest of the league? I ask this because, if we assume JA will start soon enough and AJ = NP(or at least close) I would think that Beane would at least be entertaining the thought of using AJ as potential trade bait for the eventuality that someone’s QB1 goes down. QB needy teams love to overpay for bridge/fringe starters when in need—and no team would be hesitant to pick up AJM’s absurdly cheap contract in exchange for draft capital. With him being an unknown, wouldn’t that trade value stay higher than if he were to go out and have a string full of 1 TD games behind an unsettled Oline before we hand Josh the keys? I know it’s an out there question, just wondering if anyone else had considered it? All his trade value goes away especially in the event that he ends up injured while the line is getting cohesive. Does that make Nate the best bridge to preserve overall QB room value? Or does AJM just give us THAT MUCH better chance to win? Jeez. That was long. Sorry! Very thoughtful first post! I think Beane and McDermott have proven they're very very willing to trade away players they might get nationally criticized for trading (see Sammy, Darby, Dareus), so I absolutely think trading McCarron is very much on the table. You're at 50/50 that Allen starts and that's almost exactly where I am. But I think the 1st week of TC will tell us a ton. If by, let's say, Friday August 3rd Allen hasn't seen a good amount of time with the 1s, his odds drop dramatically. On the other hand, if he does see significant time with the 1s by that time and that time is progressively increasing the way it was in Minicamp, his odds increase dramatically. So starting strong in TC is in all likelihood a must for Allen if he wants a good shot to be under center in Baltimore... and given that he's been in Buffalo working for the last week or so already, I think he knows that.
GoodHands15 Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 Agreed. I also think Daboll being OC hedges the odds in Allen’s favor. Coming from the college ranks his familiarity as far as communicating and on the fly adjusting with young players may lead him to press McD on handing Josh the reigns. Just because he doesn’t have that “I like me some veteren QB” mentality. Dont get me wrong if Allen didn’t have the frame of a Norse God I may have more reservations about throwing him in week one...but Josh seems like the type of guy who would want you to close the gate up and be afraid of what he’s about to do to these wolves...Kid’s got the mindset. 1
Zerovoltz Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 IF they thought he was on the verge of starting, he wouldn't be running with the 3's. .....Actions speak louder than words...when he is running with the 1's at least half the time in practice etc...that will tell you what they think. ....they can tell a media person all they want about how he "isn't raw" or "further along than the scouting reports suggested" .....ALL these statements the staff is making are subjective....you can't quantify any of that....you can quantify what unit he is running with...the 1's, 2's, or 3s. I'll try this one more time....if McCarron reaches his full potential right now...and the best he can ever be is a "5"....and he's at a 4-5 right now..then he is as READY as he'll ever be. He can't improve through more film study or practice...he is what he is right now. ......and the coaches start him while the work on getting allen READY....and his ceiling is 8,9,10...but he's at a 5.5....that would mean he is still the "best" QB on the roster, but he isn't ready in the coaches estimation. Before putting him on an NFL field, with your suspect line and not dynamic skill players....they might want to build him up to a level 6-7-8 away from game action. I think we probably agree Allen is already the best QB on the roster right now....it's a matter of what we think the coaches determine the criteria to start is. I continue to contend that there is a lot of work to do....especially as that pertains to calling the correct audible, making a correct read, and an accurate throw. When they think he has made progress you'll know when he moves up and runs with the 2's, displacing one of Peterman or McCarron. 1
transplantbillsfan Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Zerovotlz said: IF they thought he was on the verge of starting, he wouldn't be running with the 3's. .....Actions speak louder than words...when he is running with the 1's at least half the time in practice etc...that will tell you what they think. ....they can tell a media person all they want about how he "isn't raw" or "further along than the scouting reports suggested" .....ALL these statements the staff is making are subjective....you can't quantify any of that....you can quantify what unit he is running with...the 1's, 2's, or 3s. I'll try this one more time....if McCarron reaches his full potential right now...and the best he can ever be is a "5"....and he's at a 4-5 right now..then he is as READY as he'll ever be. He can't improve through more film study or practice...he is what he is right now. ......and the coaches start him while the work on getting allen READY....and his ceiling is 8,9,10...but he's at a 5.5....that would mean he is still the "best" QB on the roster, but he isn't ready in the coaches estimation. Before putting him on an NFL field, with your suspect line and not dynamic skill players....they might want to build him up to a level 6-7-8 away from game action. I think we probably agree Allen is already the best QB on the roster right now....it's a matter of what we think the coaches determine the criteria to start is. I continue to contend that there is a lot of work to do....especially as that pertains to calling the correct audible, making a correct read, and an accurate throw. When they think he has made progress you'll know when he moves up and runs with the 2's, displacing one of Peterman or McCarron. One thing you might want to remember is that Allen got more and more time with the 1s as OTAs and Minicamp progressed. And he got virtually all snaps on the last day of Minicamp... at least as far as it was reported. You're right... actions speak louder than words. But McDermott's words also spoke loudly when he claimed that OTAs and Minicamp should be viewed as having a rep chart rather than a depth chart and that depth chart can start being truly scrutinized in TC. Well, Allen's reps increased throughout... so he seems to be moving up... and his last day of practice when he got the most reps might've been his best... and he's been back in Buffalo working for the last week or so. Yes... I agree... actions speak louder than words and those actions spoke loudly. Edited July 22, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
Zerovoltz Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: One thing you might want to remember is that Allen got more and more time with the 1s as OTAs and Minicamp progressed. And he got virtually all snaps on the last day of Minicamp... at least as far as it was reported. You're right... actions speak louder than words. But McDermott's words also spoke loudly when he claimed that OTAs and Minicamp should be viewed as having a rep chart rather than a depth chart and that depth chart can start being truly scrutinized in TC. Well, Allen's reps increased throughout... so he seems to be moving up... and his last day of practice when he got the most reps might've been his best... and he's been back in Buffalo working for the last week or so. Yes... I agree... actions speak louder than words and those actions spoke loudly. I think we've about talked this out as far as it can go.....can't wait to see how he looks in preseason to get a better idea where he's at. 1
Captain Murica Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) On 7/20/2018 at 5:50 PM, Kelly101 said: Honestly i am rooting for JA to tear it up, just to see the anti JA haters get triggered. I will remind all the wgr bads about their baby tantrums for days over the JA hate. I swore off wgr for good after the draft and their whining. Same, I couldn’t take JW, Schopp, and Bulldog anymore after that. I wasnt a fan of the initial Allen pick. But, read more about him and even with Shady praising him made me warm up to him and want him to light it up to come in as the opening day starter. Edited July 22, 2018 by Captain Murica
reddogblitz Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 2:02 PM, transplantbillsfan said: What exactly does it mean to be "unlimited from the playoffs?" WIN THE SUPERBOWL !!
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