whatdrought Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 1 minute ago, LeviF91 said: There's always the China method. Show trial, then drag them out back and cap them over a pit. Right, except that it wouldn't be a show trial. It would be a real trial. First witness: "did you see this man walk through a high school shooting students indiscriminately?" "Yes I did" Witnesses 2-50: same Judge: jury, how do you find? Jury: we find the defendant guilty your honor. Judge: defendant is sentenced to death by whatever means the state sees fit. The more convoluted the whole justice system has gotten in the past hundred years, the less justice there really is.
Augie Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Not sure torture is ever a great idea (especially not vindictive torture for tortures sake) but I have wondered why we keep these 100% guilty mass shooters alive. (such as the kid in Colorado, the church shooter, Cruz, this one etc.) Why not do a quick (fair) trial and then execute them within a week of the guilty verdict? I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything here, but that does not allow for the full legal process to play out with appeals, etc. It also leads to a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line with who is “certainly” guilty. What factor does mental health play in the sentencing? What I fear the most is people getting a break due to mental health, then getting out after a few years of treatment. It’s a mess because it’s very complicated, regardless of what side you fall on. I wonder, we’ve all heard of people on death row who get exonerated, so haw many innocent people have gotten all the way to execution?
whatdrought Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Augie said: I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything here, but that does not allow for the full legal process to play out with appeals, etc. It also leads to a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line with who is “certainly” guilty. What factor does mental health play in the sentencing? What I fear the most is people getting a break due to mental health, then getting out after a few years of treatment. It’s a mess because it’s very complicated, regardless of what side you fall on. I wonder, we’ve all heard of people on death row who get exonerated, so haw many innocent people have gotten all the way to execution? It definitely is a slippery slope. I think in reality, while my ideals are great, they are just ideals. The problem with endless appeals and mental health excuses is that it takes the power out of the punishment involved in a punitive system. We have gotten as a society so intent on rehabilitation that we refuse to see how rare true and total rehabilitation really is. As far as the mental health issue goes I (and I don't want to sound heartless here and I am aware it's complicated so take my comments with a grain of salt) often times wonder if we are going to argue that someone was mentally incapable of understanding that shooting a bunch of people is bad, why would we not immediately want them completely and totally removed from society?
TheElectricCompany Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, whatdrought said: . We have gotten as a society so intent on rehabilitation that we refuse to see how rare true and total rehabilitation really is. The incarceration and recidivism rates don't seem to agree with that.
GoBills808 Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, whatdrought said: It definitely is a slippery slope. I think in reality, while my ideals are great, they are just ideals. The problem with endless appeals and mental health excuses is that it takes the power out of the punishment involved in a punitive system. We have gotten as a society so intent on rehabilitation that we refuse to see how rare true and total rehabilitation really is. As far as the mental health issue goes I (and I don't want to sound heartless here and I am aware it's complicated so take my comments with a grain of salt) often times wonder if we are going to argue that someone was mentally incapable of understanding that shooting a bunch of people is bad, why would we not immediately want them completely and totally removed from society? There must be ways of dealing with individuals who cannot competently exist in society, obviously, but by acknowledging that there exist a diversity of degrees of socially problematic behavior it becomes IMO very dicey making 'total and complete removal' the default response of the totally undesirable. And this is without venturing into the concept of the state using capital punishment against its own citizens, considered by many anathema to the concept of society as nation.
whatdrought Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: There must be ways of dealing with individuals who cannot competently exist in society, obviously, but by acknowledging that there exist a diversity of degrees of socially problematic behavior it becomes IMO very dicey making 'total and complete removal' the default response of the totally undesirable. And this is without venturing into the concept of the state using capital punishment against its own citizens, considered by many anathema to the concept of society as nation. But there is a certain level to the idea that there are certain heinous decisions of which there is "no coming back" for the good of society. I am thankful I am not the one who has to make such decisions. 1
mead107 Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 This kid was planning on blowing his brains out after shooting these kids. He lost his nerve. So he lives and you feel sorry for this scum bag. The kids he killed did not have that choice this kid went to that school with a plan to kill people. He DID NOT MAKE A BAD CHOICE. HE PLANNED IT. It was not getting behind the wheel drunk or buying or selling bad drugs. He planned it. No different than a Terrorist 1
GoBills808 Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 31 minutes ago, whatdrought said: But there is a certain level to the idea that there are certain heinous decisions of which there is "no coming back" for the good of society. I am thankful I am not the one who has to make such decisions. For sure. These are foundational type issues.
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 28 minutes ago, mead107 said: This kid was planning on blowing his brains out after shooting these kids. He lost his nerve. So he lives and you feel sorry for this scum bag. The kids he killed did not have that choice this kid went to that school with a plan to kill people. He DID NOT MAKE A BAD CHOICE. HE PLANNED IT. It was not getting behind the wheel drunk or buying or selling bad drugs. He planned it. No different than a Terrorist Why did he want to to kill people? It's your same "get even" line of thinking that motivated this kid to get back @ the people who supposedly did him wrong. Now you want to get back @ him? Where does it stop. Who ends the cycle? Eye for an eye creates more escalation
Fadingpain Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 45 minutes ago, mead107 said: This kid was planning on blowing his brains out after shooting these kids. He lost his nerve. So he lives and you feel sorry for this scum bag. The kids he killed did not have that choice this kid went to that school with a plan to kill people. He DID NOT MAKE A BAD CHOICE. HE PLANNED IT. It was not getting behind the wheel drunk or buying or selling bad drugs. He planned it. No different than a Terrorist If you are ever wrongfully accused of a serious crime, I think your views on the American justice system would change dramatically.
gobilz Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 23 hours ago, mead107 said: Should cut his fingers off one a day. Then his toes. Then a ice pick in each eye and one in each ear. Then throw him in a wood chipper. Wow
Augie Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, mead107 said: This kid was planning on blowing his brains out after shooting these kids. He lost his nerve. So he lives and you feel sorry for this scum bag. The kids he killed did not have that choice this kid went to that school with a plan to kill people. He DID NOT MAKE A BAD CHOICE. HE PLANNED IT. It was not getting behind the wheel drunk or buying or selling bad drugs. He planned it. No different than a Terrorist I get your venom. I really do. I’ve touched on this elsewhere, but we need to look at the big picture which is showing spikes in autism, ADHD and other mental health issues. We’ve personally experienced a lot of that. WHY is this spiking in recent decades? I believe a significant factor is what we feed our bodies and minds. I believe processed foods laden with chemicals, even while infants are in the womb, are having an effect. My wife recently had a long discussion with her nutritionist about this, and she made a very compelling argument. Violent video games and social media don’t help, either, but I’m amazed by how many kids are affected by some form of affliction at an early age. Yes, they do unbelievably horrible things. How on earth could they think that’s OK? It’s not just bad parenting (usually). I am NOT for letting them off, but just trying to understand. Society has to be kept safe, even if we have to pay to keep them locked up. Make that cost your incentive for getting to the bottom of it. What are other countries doing? Arguing gun rights or the death penalty is not an endeavor anyone is going to “win”, so I’ll avoid all that.
mead107 Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Why did he want to to kill people? It's your same "get even" line of thinking that motivated this kid to get back @ the people who supposedly did him wrong. Now you want to get back @ him? Where does it stop. Who ends the cycle? Eye for an eye creates more escalation So you want to coddle the jerk. He is a cold blooded killer. You say it is an eye for an eye. I say all that does is keep the cycle going. All that does is continue the wacky crap. Put his killing on tv and social media. Send the message. YOU DO MASS SHOOTING YOU DIE. 10 minutes ago, Augie said: I get your venom. I really do. I’ve touched on this elsewhere, but we need to look at the big picture which is showing spikes in autism, ADHD and other mental health issues. We’ve personally experienced a lot of that. WHY is this spiking in recent decades? I believe a significant factor is what we feed our bodies and minds. I believe processed foods laden with chemicals, even while infants are in the womb, are having an effect. My wife recently had a long discussion with her nutritionist about this, and she made a very compelling argument. Violent video games and social media don’t help, either, but I’m amazed by how many kids are affected by some form of affliction at an early age. Yes, they do unbelievably horrible things. How on earth could they think that’s OK? It’s not just bad parenting (usually). I am NOT for letting them off, but just trying to understand. Society has to be kept safe, even if we have to pay to keep them locked up. Make that cost your incentive for getting to the bottom of it. What are other countries doing? Arguing gun rights or the death penalty is not an endeavor anyone is going to “win”, so I’ll avoid all that. Lots of problems in our society today. You touched on a lot of them. Whole topic we should start sometime soon. Makes you wonder why so many health problems. 1 hour ago, Fadingpain said: If you are ever wrongfully accused of a serious crime, I think your views on the American justice system would change dramatically. This KID DID IT. we are not talking about he might not be the KILLER. HE IS THE KILLER
Saxum Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 11 hours ago, /dev/null said: I hope he receives competent legal council and a fair trial. And if found guilty is condemned to death He cannot be condemned to death per supreme court ruling because he was a minor despite being charged as an adult.
TheElectricCompany Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, mead107 said: You say it is an eye for an eye. I say all that does is keep the cycle going. All that does is continue the wacky crap. Put his killing on tv and social media. Send the message. YOU DO MASS SHOOTING YOU DIE. Like ISIL does with their criminals, right? That should go over well. Edited May 22, 2018 by TheElectricCompany
Saxum Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 3 hours ago, GoBills808 said: There must be ways of dealing with individuals who cannot competently exist in society, obviously, but by acknowledging that there exist a diversity of degrees of socially problematic behavior it becomes IMO very dicey making 'total and complete removal' the default response of the totally undesirable. And this is without venturing into the concept of the state using capital punishment against its own citizens, considered by many anathema to the concept of society as nation. And the method cannot be spending more per person with a higher standard of living than those honest people working menial jobs. Prisons are starting to become businesses in this country and THAT IS BAD. 3
Gugny Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, mead107 said: This kid was planning on blowing his brains out after shooting these kids. He lost his nerve. So he lives and you feel sorry for this scum bag. The kids he killed did not have that choice this kid went to that school with a plan to kill people. He DID NOT MAKE A BAD CHOICE. HE PLANNED IT. It was not getting behind the wheel drunk or buying or selling bad drugs. He planned it. No different than a Terrorist A terrorist, indeed. Like the vast majority of terrorists who've attacked U.S. soil, he's an American citizen. I haven't found one post that says anyone feels sorry for the kid. Zero. Can you link the ones you've found? If you think that not wanting him dead = feeling sorry for him, then that's your (major) problem. Edited May 23, 2018 by Gugny 1
mead107 Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Gugny said: A terrorist, indeed. Like the vast majority of terrorists who've attacked U.S. soil, he's an American citizen. I haven't found one post that says anyone feels sorry for the kid. Zero. Can you link the ones you've found? If you think that not wanting him dead = feeling sorry for him, then that's your (major) problem. So what punishment do you want the kid to get? Slap on the wrist. Bad boy. do you want him to serve any jail time?
Augie Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, mead107 said: So what punishment do you want the kid to get? Slap on the wrist. Bad boy. do you want him to serve any jail time? Lock him up. FOREVER. Keep him away from the rest of us. Study him to try to understand so we can maybe prevent this action from others. Figure out what we need to be doing differently. 1
Gugny Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, mead107 said: So what punishment do you want the kid to get? Slap on the wrist. Bad boy. do you want him to serve any jail time? No. I think he should get a week of detention and have to go to summer school. How the hell can you read what I wrote and deduce that I don't think this kid should be punished? The only thing that I've asserted is that I don't wish death upon him. That's it. Somehow, you've interpreted, "I don't want this kid to commit suicide and I don't want him to be murdered by the government," as, "I don't want this kid to be punished." That is mind-boggling to me.
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