@YardsPerPass interview on WGR - why he’s talked himself into Josh Allen

[BillsBytheBay]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

 

 

31 minutes ago, Justice said:

Yes. I meant the coaches.

 

(Bolded)It’s funny you say that too. Timing patterns actually helps out weaker WRs. It helps them get open or at least open long enough to make the catch. The ball usually comes when the defender doesn’t expect it. Makes them harder to defend. This isn’t happening with Wyoming’s offense. He actually waits for them to get open. You know who else does that? Tyrod Taylor. 

You're literally speaking from your own misconceptions.  Every Source has cited that he can throw with anticipation that he does throw Guys open he can drop the ball on a dime.  His largest college drawback was hero ball. And I don't think that's a drawback in the pros. I have already stated that it's going to be a huge jumping Talent from Wyoming to the NFL. And I don't expect him to be the best quarterback in the rookie class this year. But he can literally do things that Aaron Rodgers may be the only other player in the league, can do.

 

Talk to text.... Sorry

Edited May 17, 2018 by JaxBills

[Justice]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Not a fact at all.

 

No you didn't. And it's not a highlight reel.

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Justice said:

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

Not trying to pile on here.....but just the fact that we need to wait and see which one it is kinda points to "Its not a well known fact"

[GimmeSomeProcess]

1 hour ago, BB@Shooter said:

 

All I know is I wanted one of the big 4 qbs in this draft. Allen was 4 on my list so yes I was disappointed we chose him over Rosen. However, I understand why the Bills gravitated towards him. And when I actually dug deep I saw what enmaroed him to Buffalo. They are swinging for the fences with him. 

 

Oh, and to compare him to EJ or JP is lauaghable. Those guys were 2nd to 3rd round graded prospects the entire process. The Bills reached for them. Allen was a consecious first round talent for a year and half 

[Justice]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Not trying to pile on here.....but just the fact that we need to wait and see which one it is kinda points to "Its not a well known fact"

I trust my eyes and I’ve read many scouting reports that agree with that assessment. He didn’t play in a timing based offense so I think it’s fair to say neither of us really know if he’s capable or not. 

6 minutes ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

All I know is I wanted one of the big 4 qbs in this draft. Allen was 4 on my list so yes I was disappointed we chose him over Rosen. However, I understand why the Bills gravitated towards him. And when I actually dug deep I saw what enmaroed him to Buffalo. They are swinging for the fences with him. 

 

Oh, and to compare him to EJ or JP is lauaghable. Those guys were 2nd to 3rd round graded prospects the entire process. The Bills reached for them. Allen was a consecious first round talent for a year and half 

That’s my thoughts exactly and we could’ve waited on one or the other and kept our second rounders. The Bills felt strongly enough to pounce on him and were even willing to move up even higher and pay more. Let’s hope they’re right. I too liked Rosen more but I have to admit his concussion

history is scary. 

 

I think people might compare him to those two because of his area code accuracy.  

[BillsBytheBay]

It seems like the only folks that weren't high on Allen was TV pundits and arm chair GMs.  And that hasn't changed.  I wonder why professional scouts and weekend warriors have such different views...  And should I trust guys on this blog, or the guys who drafted Tre Day after trading down.

 

The answer to that conundrum is:  nobody really knows. And it's easy to declare a guy a bust when you have nothing on the line. So I believe that I am always going to stick to the guys whose livelihood is at stake.

 

I don't care if McBean make any decision that makes any fan happy. Their decisions did take us to the playoffs last year.

 

Folks, they showed us a baby. It was real quick but I'm not ready to pretend like they didn't.

[GimmeSomeProcess]

5 minutes ago, Justice said:

I trust my eyes and I’ve read many scouting reports that agree with that assessment. He didn’t play in a timing based offense so I think it’s fair to say neither of us really know if he’s capable or not. 

That’s my thoughts exactly and we could’ve waited on one or the other and kept our second rounders. The Bills felt strongly enough to pounce on him and were even willing to move up even higher and pay more. Let’s hope they’re right. I too liked Rosen more but I have to admit his concussion

history is scary. 

 

I think people might compare him to those two because of his area code accuracy.  

I loved Rosen but going I had concerns he could be the next Sam Bradford. Productive when healthy but built stature wise to with stand the NFL punishment and no mobility to speak of. Looks like Carson palmer in the pocket but a lot more thin. Not a good recipe 

[Wayne Arnold]

20 minutes ago, Justice said:

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

 

No you didn't "seen" two out patterns Allen missed in the clips I added.

 

I'll repeat: Timing routes require wide receivers that have the ability to get separation on a consistent basis. Otherwise you're playing with fire no matter who your QB is. That's why you didn't see many (if any) of those type of routes in Wyoming's offensive system.

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, JaxBills said:

 

You're literally speaking from your own misconceptions.  Every Source has cited that he can throw with anticipation that he does throw Guys open he can drop the ball on a dime. 

 

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion.  

 

 

[BuffaloHokie13]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion.  

Do you remember if there was any difference on this front in his 2016 tape vs his 2017 tape? He seemed to trust Gentry quite a bit, but 2016 was also his first full season at that level of competition. It's an interesting conundrum for sure.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Do you remember if there was any difference on this front in his 2016 tape vs his 2017 tape? He seemed to trust Gentry quite a bit, but 2016 was also his first full season at that level of competition. It's an interesting conundrum for sure.

 

I don't off the top of my head BH - I am sitting at Washington Dulles airport at the moment waiting to board my flight back to the UK so don't have the benefit of my original hand written notes with me.  I'd have to consult those to see if I noted any year to year difference. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

It's called group-think. Allen was (is) a victim of a growing nerd movement in the football world. The nerds used him as the symbol of the old-school scouting mentality and the enemy of the moneyball method. "Big arm quarterback with bad stats is the potential #1 overall pick - let me show you why the NFL scouts are WRONG!" The nerds used Twitter to destroy his reputation and the general public swallowed it up because all they saw was negative negative negative.

 

Don't overestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan.

 

Meh.  Now the excuses have excuses "symbol of the old-school scouting mentality" WTF?  Allen does not have good stats - not just the infamous "completion percentage", but deeper dives like "contextualized QBing".  To the extent that a certain level of college achievement represents a minimum threshold for possible NFL success, he gets a downcheck.  To the extent that he's an outlier - an enormously physically talented guy playing on an un-talented team in a weak conference - there's legit question to what extent that minimum threshold applies to his circumstances. 

 

Don't underestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan either.  While all the pundits and Buffalo media were going all gushy about EJM, several folks here who watched him extensively were raising the alarm, alarm that proved justified.  I could say similar about my take on Blaine Gabbert.  There is probably some group- think in the evaluation of every player in the draft, but there are also people who watch a lot of film and form their own opinions.  Their opinions are worth taking into account even if you don't agree.

 

 

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't off the top of my head BH - I am sitting at Washington Dulles airport at the moment waiting to board my flight back to the UK so don't have the benefit of my original hand written notes with me.  I'd have to consult those to see if I noted any year to year difference. 

You should've told me you were here. I'd have bought you a pint! lol. Sorry about the crummy weather.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

You should've told me you were here. I'd have bought you a pint! lol. Sorry about the crummy weather.

 

I didn't realise you were in DC! Yea it has rained the whole three days. I had a day full of meetings 8am-8pm yesterday but had a bit of time late morning today to do some sight seeing.... I managed to get to the White House and take some photos of it and by that point I was pretty wet so made my way back to my hotel and sat in the bar instead!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion. 

 

Right.  So here is where the pro scouts legitimately do have a leg up on "Biff from Tonawanda", since at a minimum they have a chance to sit down with Allen on a pre-draft visit and take a deep dive into his film, what the play call was, what the routes were, etc. For all I know, they may be able to get some of that info under confidentiality from the college staff.  They can also work him out and ask him to throw specific routes, to assess what his base ability to make those kind of throws may be.

 

Now it may be that after doing that deeper dive, the Bills decided that anticipation was less of a problem for Allen than believed from just watching the film and that would be legit.   I hope that's the case.  But I agree with Justice and Gunner (also several former pro QB have made this comment) that from the film we have, it's not something he's demonstrated.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, JaxBills said:

6'2" 130lb when he graduated HS.

6'5" 240lb when drafted.

 

I wish I had that late growth spurt.

LOL.  Me, too.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  So here is where the pro scouts legitimately do have a leg up on "Biff from Tonawanda", since at a minimum they have a chance to sit down with Allen on a pre-draft visit and take a deep dive into his film, what the play call was, what the routes were, etc. For all I know, they may be able to get some of that info under confidentiality from the college staff.  They can also work him out and ask him to throw specific routes, to assess what his base ability to make those kind of throws may be.

 

Now it may be that after doing that deeper dive, the Bills decided that anticipation was less of a problem for Allen than believed from just watching the film and that would be legit.   I hope that's the case.  But I agree with Justice and Gunner (also several former pro QB have made this comment) that from the film we have, it's not something he's demonstrated.

 

Completely agree with everything - other than I would add the word "consistently" at the very end.  There is a very occasional flash of it.  It's not demonstrated with any consistency or regularity on the tape.  But you are 100% right that the Bills are better positioned to assess the reasons for that than I.  

[Wayne Arnold]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Meh.  Now the excuses have excuses "symbol of the old-school scouting mentality" WTF?  Allen does not have good stats - not just the infamous "completion percentage", but deeper dives like "contextualized QBing".  To the extent that a certain level of college achievement represents a minimum threshold for possible NFL success, he gets a downcheck.  To the extent that he's an outlier - an enormously physically talented guy playing on an un-talented team in a weak conference - there's legit question to what extent that minimum threshold applies to his circumstances. 

 

Don't underestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan either.  While all the pundits and Buffalo media were going all gushy about EJM, several folks here who watched him extensively were raising the alarm, alarm that proved justified.  I could say similar about my take on Blaine Gabbert.  There is probably some group- think in the evaluation of every player in the draft, but there are also people who watch a lot of film and form their own opinions.  Their opinions are worth taking into account even if you don't agree.

 

Couldn't read, sorry. You lost me at "excuses." Full indication of someone who willfully ignores context.

[Justice]

Trust me guys. I’ve come a long way since we drafted Allen. That’s why I chose to chime in on this particular thread. That’s what it’s all about. We’re Bills fans. He’s a Bill. We will support him and back him no matter what we thought of him before the draft. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Couldn't read, sorry. You lost me at "excuses." Full indication of someone who willfully ignores context.

 

Dude, when ya got a post that leads off with "It's called group think" and follows that up with " Allen was (is) a victim of a growing nerd movement", you do have a brass nerve claiming that other people willfully ignore context.

 

Now I need to go fix my irony meter, it sproinged.