Taron Johnson can be a steal

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, OCinBuffalo said:

Great research. Now, go back and find out which rounds they were drafted in.

 

You said nothing about round...

 

you said and i quote “ explain why so few WRs were drafted this year and DBs were drafted like hot cakes “

 

there were more WRs taken than CBs... as to why not many WRs went early, it was a bad class with not many potential #1 guys

 

actually a pretty bad class for WRs

Edited May 8, 2018 by Buffalo716

[OCinBuffalo]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

You said nothing about round...

 

you said and i quote “ explain why so few WRs were drafted this year and DBs were drafted like hot cakes “

 

there were more WRs taken than CBs... as to why not many WRs went early, it was a bad class with not many potential #1 guys

 

actually a pretty bad class for WRs

Look at my posts above, I absolutely pointed out that hardly any WRs were taken in the first 2 rounds. See, this is why I write long posts, because of stuff like this. EDIT: Here, I'll do it for you: Buffalo716 quoted me saying it on this very page

 

I was clearly referencing what I already said, in an, apparently, failed attempt not to be redundant. 

 

You can blame the WRs, but consider: If there's ever an entire draft class that's bad at an entire position...out of 224+ guys being drafted...in a throwing league like the NFL? It might be that the coaches, who've had 2-4 years to make these guys good, also have some blame to take.

Edited May 8, 2018 by OCinBuffalo

[TigerJ]

2 hours ago, billspro said:

 

If Beane found 5 starters out of this draft this team is going to contend soon.

I think the Bills will have him compete as a slot corner (nickel back).  Granted, teams typically play that alignment about 70% of the time anymore, but technically he wouldn't be considered as a starter.   I think the only day one starter Buffalo gets out ofo this draft is Tremaine Edmunds.  Josh Allen may get on the field before the end of the year, but if he does it probably means McCarron is a failure moreso than Allen is too good to keep on the bench (and I'm a fan of Josh Allen long term).  Wyatt Teller could conceivably start, but I think the Bills would just as soon he sit for a while.  The bottom line is the Bills probably get one starter for 2018 along with a nickel back from this draft, and maybe 4 starters plus a nickel back and just maybe a slot receiver (Austin Proehl) from this draft for 2019.  Ray Ray McCloud's future with the team is likely to be that of a return specialist, depth receiver and just maybe an occasional gadget play contributor.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, OCinBuffalo said:

Look at my posts above, I absolutely pointed out that hardly any WRs were taken in the first 2 rounds. See, this is why I write long posts, because of stuff like this. 

 

I was clearly referencing what I already said, in an, apparently, failed attempt not to be redundant. 

 

You can blame the WRs, but consider: If there's ever an entire draft class that's bad at an entire position...out of 224+ guys being drafted...in a throwing league like the NFL? It might be that the coaches, who've had 2-4 years to make these guys good, also have some blame to take.

 

Every year a class is strong at some positions and weak at another. The last 5 years there have been some really good WR classes... this year not so much

 

Some years there are a decent amount of good QB prospects, some years 1 or none

 

There are a lot of good WR coaches in college , some kids just aren’t super coachable

 

every class is totally different 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

I think the Bills will have him compete as a slot corner (nickel back).  Granted, teams typically play that alignment about 70% of the time anymore, but technically he wouldn't be considered as a starter.   I think the only day one starter Buffalo gets out ofo this draft is Tremaine Edmunds.  Josh Allen may get on the field before the end of the year, but if he does it probably means McCarron is a failure moreso than Allen is too good to keep on the bench (and I'm a fan of Josh Allen long term).  Wyatt Teller could conceivably start, but I think the Bills would just as soon he sit for a while.  The bottom line is the Bills probably get one starter for 2018 along with a nickel back from this draft, and maybe 4 starters plus a nickel back and just maybe a slot receiver (Austin Proehl) from this draft for 2019.  Ray Ray McCloud's future with the team is likely to be that of a return specialist, depth receiver and just maybe an occasional gadget play contributor.

 

I would be over the moon with that result for next year...

 

Harrison and Teller look like steals compared to where they were drafted...

 

I must admit that Neal and Johnson were not on my radar pre draft, but I am optimistic about what I have read about them since...

 

The only criticism I have of the draft is that they had the chance to pick Tyrell Crosby in the 4th round who seemed to be good value there and would have filled a bigger need in my view...

 

[OCinBuffalo]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Every year a class is strong at some positions and weak at another. The last 5 years there have been some really good WR classes... this year not so much

 

Some years there are a decent amount of good QB prospects, some years 1 or none

 

There are a lot of good WR coaches in college , some kids just aren’t super coachable

 

every class is totally different 

The last 5 years have produced more WR busts than ever.

[DJB]

3 hours ago, njbuff said:

I will wait and see him play before I form an opinion. Just like the rest of the draft picks.

 

True, or an indication as to how bad the roster is lol

[Buffalo716]

24 minutes ago, OCinBuffalo said:

The last 5 years have produced more WR busts than ever.

 

Because there are more WRs on The field than ever before 

 

20-25 years ago I had maybe 20-30 draftable grades on WRs per year... now there are  sometimes 40-50 kids with draftable grades

 

the spread has put more WRs on the field and more are getting drafted... of course a lot aren’t going to work out...

 

its solely on them

 

the spread offense has changed the game and not for the better necessarily... Most  WRs do not run the full route tree anymore and get exposed at the NFL level 

 

dont draft project WRs high 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Makes you wonder, lets assume he turns out to be a pro-bowl type of player.  3 years from now, will you say the Bills (or insert any other team name here for different player ) were smart or lucky.  Smart in that they waited until the 4th round to pick him knowing he wouldn't be picked earlier, do teams have good intel to know when player will be selected?  Or just lucky that they got him and he turned out great.  If you really knew he was going to be great, why take a chance on waiting until the 4th round when someone else may grab him first.  Was NE really smart in 2001 drafting Brady in round 6 or just lucky no one else took him prior?

[BurpleBull]

I like Siran Neal. He's physical with good size. Seems the more likely of the two to develop into that next really good lockdown corner to be passed over by teams because he lacked 4.40 combine speed.

[Bill from NYC]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Definitely 

 

We have been very lucky to have a bunch of good DBs around here. Yes, we have definitely been enamored by the position even in years where it wasn’t vital 

 

but DBs are at a Premium now and it’s nice to be able to ID talent in all rounds including UDFA. You need to add a corner or 2 every year just to keep pace and hopefully strike gold

 

McDermott is certainly building a reputation as a DB whisperer 

Not quite sure which dbs to which you are referring. Who did you think was that good?

 

The Bills had a multitude of high round dbs and investing so many resources in them (and of course running backs) is what caused our team to suck. Were there other factors? Of course, but we passed on quarterbacks and blockers for the likes of players like Whitner, McKelvin, Aaron Williams (who took how long to develop?), and a slew of others for decades. The list of QBs and blockers we passed up for these and other dbs is endless.

 

Look at the Browns, a textbook stupid franchise. A corner at #4? Really? They could have traded down and built a foundation. They could have taken the guard from Notre Dame and many others but they took a #4 corner. I wonder why they suck?

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Makes you wonder, lets assume he turns out to be a pro-bowl type of player.  3 years from now, will you say the Bills (or insert any other team name here for different player ) were smart or lucky.  Smart in that they waited until the 4th round to pick him knowing he wouldn't be picked earlier, do teams have good intel to know when player will be selected?  Or just lucky that they got him and he turned out great.  If you really knew he was going to be great, why take a chance on waiting until the 4th round when someone else may grab him first.  Was NE really smart in 2001 drafting Brady in round 6 or just lucky no one else took him prior?

 

If you can get a Pro Bowl player from the 4th round, you're lucky.

[Buffalo716]

23 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Not quite sure which dbs to which you are referring. Who did you think was that good?

 

The Bills had a multitude of high round dbs and investing so many resources in them (and of course running backs) is what caused our team to suck. Were there other factors? Of course, but we passed on quarterbacks and blockers for the likes of players like Whitner, McKelvin, Aaron Williams (who took how long to develop?), and a slew of others for decades. The list of QBs and blockers we passed up for these and other dbs is endless.

 

Look at the Browns, a textbook stupid franchise. A corner at #4? Really? They could have traded down and built a foundation. They could have taken the guard from Notre Dame and many others but they took a #4 corner. I wonder why they suck?

 

Going back to guys like Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield...

 

Defensive Backs also include Safeties and we had George Wilson who was pretty good and Jairus Byrd and Aaron Williams... Searcy was good when he started for us as well...  Now we have Hyde and Poyer

 

Terrence McGee and Jabari Greer were good

 

McKelvin took a bit to develop and then became actually pretty steady... his PR skills went down his coverage skills went up... 

 

Robey Coleman was undrafted and became a very good slot corner for us

 

We have had quite a few top 10 passing defenses in the last 15- 18 years 

 

Stephon Gilmore even though a whipping boy was a good player for us. Came in day 1 and was our #1 corner ... 

 

now we have Tre White and Vontae... our DBs have not been the problem during the bad years mostly...

 

we have been steady there

 

Now I’m not saying we built all those teams correctly but we have always had a pretty good secondary the last 15 + years

Edited May 8, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Bill from NYC]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Going back to guys like Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield...

 

Defensive Backs also include Safeties and we had George Wilson who was pretty good and Jairus Byrd and Aaron Williams... Searcy was good when he started for us as well...  Now we have Hyde and Poyer

 

Terrence McGee and Jabari Greer were good

 

McKelvin took a bit to develop and then became actually pretty steady... his PR skills went down his coverage skills went up... 

 

Robey Coleman was undrafted and became a very good slot corner for us

 

We have had quite a few top 10 passing defenses in the last 15- 18 years 

 

Stephon Gilmore even though a whipping boy was a good player for us. Came in day 1 and was our #1 corner ... 

 

now we have Tre White and Vontae... our DBs have not been the problem during the bad years mostly...

 

we have been steady there

 

Now I’m not saying we built all those teams correctly but we have always had a pretty good secondary the last 15 + years

OK, sure. You are making my point for me. What difference does it make that some of these players were "good" if our team sucked because of drafting them?

 

A good secondary with no qb and a lousy OL is pointless. It's much like putting a slate roof on a house with a crumbling foundation, no?

 

I like what the Bills did in this draft. They drafted late round dbs and I think it was a great strategy. I am even fond of Levi Wallace having seen every one of his games.  They could have taken the best db in the draft with their top pick and the  team would have went backwards, even if said db was "good."

[Buffalo716]

Just now, Bill from NYC said:

OK, sure. You are making my point for me. What difference does it make that some of these players were "good" if our team sucked because of drafting them?

 

A good secondary with no qb and a lousy OL is pointless. It's much like putting a slate roof on a house with a crumbling foundation, no?

 

I like what the Bills did in this draft. They drafted late round dbs and I think it was a great strategy. I am even fond of Levi Wallace having seen every one of his games.  They could have taken the best db in the draft with their top pick and the  team would have went backwards, even if said db was "good."

 

I never disagreed with you.

 

you need a good Oline and QB play ?

[Logic]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Going back to guys like Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield...

 

Defensive Backs also include Safeties and we had George Wilson who was pretty good and Jairus Byrd and Aaron Williams... Searcy was good when he started for us as well...  Now we have Hyde and Poyer

 

Terrence McGee and Jabari Greer were good

 

McKelvin took a bit to develop and then became actually pretty steady... his PR skills went down his coverage skills went up... 

 

Robey Coleman was undrafted and became a very good slot corner for us

 

We have had quite a few top 10 passing defenses in the last 15- 18 years 

 

Stephon Gilmore even though a whipping boy was a good player for us. Came in day 1 and was our #1 corner ... 

 

now we have Tre White and Vontae... our DBs have not been the problem during the bad years mostly...

 

we have been steady there

 

Now I’m not saying we built all those teams correctly but we have always had a pretty good secondary the last 15 + years

This.

And to anyone who replies "yeah, well, that's just because you keep investing high picks in defensive backs!": No. There's more to it than that. The league is littered with first round cornerback busts. It's not as if every DB taken in round 1 is a star. The Bills have been good at identifying, drafting, and developing DBs for years now. They're not always great at retaining them once their rookie deals expire, but that's another story for another day. 

Some teams are just good at identifying, drafting, and developing certain positions. The Steelers with wide receivers. The Cowboys with offensive linemen. The Bills with defensive backs. 

Provided key players stay healthy (always a big "if"!), the Bills look poised to continue this trend into 2018.

[JohnC]

40 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Not quite sure which dbs to which you are referring. Who did you think was that good?

 

The Bills had a multitude of high round dbs and investing so many resources in them (and of course running backs) is what caused our team to suck. Were there other factors? Of course, but we passed on quarterbacks and blockers for the likes of players like Whitner, McKelvin, Aaron Williams (who took how long to develop?), and a slew of others for decades. The list of QBs and blockers we passed up for these and other dbs is endless.

 

Look at the Browns, a textbook stupid franchise. A corner at #4? Really? They could have traded down and built a foundation. They could have taken the guard from Notre Dame and many others but they took a #4 corner. I wonder why they suck?

I don't understand why the Browns didn't take Chubb with their second first round pick. They selected the Buckeye CB, Ward, who was the best DB in this draft. But Chubb was acknowledged as being the best DE, pass rusher and one of the best overall players in this draft, a draft that had plenty of DBs and few pass rushers. They still could have come away with a high end DB at the top of the second round. One way of upgrading the performance of the defensive backfield is to have a superior pass rush. If you would have added Chubb to Garrett you have the makings of an elite pass rushing line. 

 

I have a fundamental disagreement with you regarding DBs. In this passing era you have to have not only a couple of good DBs, but you have to have a strong unit back there to compete with the offenses that have favorable rules that leave it unfettered. However, I think you and I are in agreement that this new regime has a more coherent and strategic approach to roster building. Over the past year or so they have made decisions that allowed them to accumulate picks that in the near future would place them in a position to get their franchise qb and address linchpin positions. Getting Allen at qb and Edmunds at the LB position demonstrate the importance of those critical positions that go beyond their singular positions.  

 

What a dramatically different way of functioning from the patchwork Whaley approach to building a roster! Under McBeane you see an intelligent blue print and it steadily being implemented. How can you not be optimistic about the future?

 

Just an isolated opinion: The best value pick in this draft was selecting Wyatt Teller in the fifth round. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by JohnC

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, JoeF said:

Man, he is going to be pissed...Don't worry I won't narc on you...

 

I know Youboty would be insulted by having a serial poster named for him but he has no idea.  I know because he came to a tailgate with Reed and I asked him about it and said it sounds like some UDFA Division III school wannabe.

[The Now Moment]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills had a long history of being enamored with first round DB's.........unfortunately even back when the game was much more about the action at the LOS and stopping the run. 

 

Going back to Polian every GM they've had has been very good at identifying them but recent regimes like Jauron/Rex/McD have been DB-centric due to their backgrounds and we've subsequently seen more good players in the defensive backfield than any other unit on the team over the past decade plus.

Well, when you play against Tom Brady twice a year...you get yourself some DBs and a nice pass rush.

[The Now Moment]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't understand why the Browns didn't take Chubb with their second first round pick. They selected the Buckeye CB, Ward, who was the best DB in this draft. But Chubb was acknowledged as being the best DE, pass rusher and one of the best overall players in this draft, a draft that had plenty of DBs and few pass rushers. They still could have come away with a high end DB at the top of the second round. One way of upgrading the performance of the defensive backfield is to have a superior pass rush. If you would have added Chubb to Garrett you have the makings of an elite pass rushing line. 

 

 

Cleveland had a giant hole at CB but I get your point.  They must feel that he can become the best corner in the NFL.They also have some reasonable players that are young that could break out at the end spot and I really liked the Chad Thomas pick in the 3rd for them.