Draft Analyst Joe Marino of FanRag Sports on Bills Draft, Allen

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

12 hours ago, JoeF said:

We need to bring in Crash Davis to coach Josh Allen......  Hey Josh-- hit the Nose Tackle in the balls...

 

 

I knew a rabid Bills fan who maintained the best advice they could have given Gary Marangi was "throw to Blount".

Edited May 4, 2018 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[Wayne Arnold]

More evidence of what Allen was working with in 2017. 13:05 mark...

 

"But his receivers never dropped passes!"

 

 

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Another one. 20:45 mark.

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

Joe Marino=Chris Trapasso?

 

It is just comical that these guys are sticking to their "grades." A bunch of nerds who probably never played football before, when the entire league and scouting community pretty much feel that Allen was a top ten pick. Oh and by the way, if he came out last year, would have been the #1 pick. I get that not everybody love steh pick, but these losers are not taking projection into account and are hitching themselves to their guy. I should definitely trust some nerd at a computer over scouts, GMs and pro personnel people who have been doing this for a million years.

 

[Blokestradamus]

7 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

It is just comical that these guys are sticking to their "grades." A bunch of nerds who probably never played football before.

 

Hi, it's me here. Guy that never played a down at any level and had Allen as a 3rd round talent.

 

Huge difference between where he WILL go and where people feel he SHOULD go.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Hi, it's me here. Guy that never played a down at any level and had Allen as a 3rd round talent.

 

Huge difference between where he WILL go and where people feel he SHOULD go.

 

 

Listen I respect what you do, and I'm not trying to be a dick, but if all these experts were experts, wouldn't they be working for an NFL team? Why is it that, basically, the entire NFL had him as a top ten pick and yet a few internet "scouts" are claiming he is a third rounder? I'm sorry but I'm not taking the word of the guy at his computer. I'm going with the NFL people.

 

These people watch every single down of every single play. They understand the passing concepts and what the player was tasked to do on a particular play. They get to sit down with the kid, one on one, and talk to him about what he was thinking on a particular play. They are able to project how the player makes reads and throws that they will need him to make that are specific to their offensive scheme. They talk to players, coaches, everyone around the kid. They know stuff on a much deeper level than you or anyone else who grades these guys as a hobby or for a draft service. 

 

I guess my point is, that anyone who give sthis guy a "grade" who does not have access to all of the information above, really are giving an incomplete grade. 

[26CornerBlitz]

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, Shotgunner said:

 

We have a hole in our hearts the shape of a franchise QB, and we keep trying to shove other QBs in that hole but they don't fit. Not until we get one that truly fits the hole will we stop fighting about it.

 

In the meantime, we had a gaping hole of at least 6 threads a day fighting about Tyrod, and somehow our FO managed to find a QB even more polarizing so here we are.

 

Really well put!

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis. 

 

 

 

I dismiss it because it is incomplete. He does not have access to the information, the coaches, the players etc etc etc that I stated above. He is watching film and nitpicking. That to me, is incomplete analysis and not a trustworthy source. To me, this analysis is interesting, but meaningless. It is impossible for this guy to know what Allen was supposed to do on a particular play, what was discussed in practice that week, what checks there were etc. He also can't talk to Allen about what he is thinking on a particular play. Now if we had an NFL team come out and say he was a third round pick, that would be interesting.  

[HappyDays]

58 minutes ago, Mike in Syracuse said:

The contention that a guy with a 37 Wonderlic can't read a defense is absurd.   Almost as absurd as the suggestion that footwork can't be improved.

 

Blaine Gabbert scored a 40 on the wonderlic

[billsfan1959]

11 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis. 

 

 

I don't believe it is a crusade by TBD. The majority of posters I have seen recognize Allen for what he is: a QB with an extremely high ceiling and an extremely low floor. Most just prefer to be positive at this point. There are a minority of posters who choose to be willfully ignorant of any deficiencies in Allen's game that could keep him from becoming a franchise QB - just as there are a minority of posters, such as the OP, who choose to believe there is nothing in Allen's game to suggest he could ever be a franchise QB. 

 

At this point, what happens on the field is the only thing that is going to change the minds of the people in either of those groups.

Edited May 4, 2018 by billsfan1959

[Blokestradamus]

1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Listen I respect what you do, and I'm not trying to be a dick, but if all these experts were experts, wouldn't they be working for an NFL team? Why is it that, basically, the entire NFL had him as a top ten pick and yet a few internet "scouts" are claiming he is a third rounder? I'm sorry but I'm not taking the word of the guy at his computer. I'm going with the NFL people.

 

These people watch every single down of every single play. They understand the passing concepts and what the player was tasked to do on a particular play. They get to sit down with the kid, one on one, and talk to him about what he was thinking on a particular play. They are able to project how the player makes reads and throws that they will need him to make that are specific to their offensive scheme. They talk to players, coaches, everyone around the kid. They know stuff on a much deeper level than you or anyone else who grades these guys as a hobby or for a draft service. 

 

I guess my point is, that anyone who give sthis guy a "grade" who does not have access to all of the information above, really are giving an incomplete grade. 

 

Trust me, I'm the leading expert on trying not to sound like a dick. I won't take it personally (although you could probably already tell that the subject irks me slightly).

 

Ideally, the NFL would be the cream of the crop in regards to every aspect. The best players, coaches, scouts, admin staff, whatever. Alas, it is a bit of a case of who you know still as opposed to what you know. There are ways that someone like me (never played, other side of the Atlantic) can make those connections. There's things like the Scouting Academy that Dan Hatman runs, that give you access to former players and coaches. People that, if they like you, would vouch for you to people in the industry. I know someone that now works for the recruitment team at the University of Houston thanks to that avenue.

 

I know that Matt Miller from Bleacher Report has spoke numerous times about being approached by teams. He had a child at 17 years old and prefers to work from home rather than do the 12-16 hour days that scouts do. He probably earns about as much, if not more, doing so. My stepdad did it for years in the 'other football' over here and he missed his daughter growing up because of the demands.

 

I've never tried to pretend that I have all of the information at my disposal. I've taken detailed notes and blogged about the draft for a few years but everything is an incomplete because of the lack of the full picture. I understand that and often use it as a disclaimer for myself. I'm just taking best guess work with my process for large parts. Despite that, I've had the ear of Matt Jansen who was recently fired as college scouting coordinator of the Houston Texans because he read some of my work. I assumed that I was doing something right!

 

If you (or anyone else) wants to have faith that the team is doing the best it can, you do you. Just tread carefully about sounding like you're invalidating the opinions of others, especially if they happen to conflict with yours. I'm not the enemy, I just don't like the damn pick

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

The crusade by TBD to discredit any draft analyst who offers criticism of Allen based on technical and mental processing deficiencies in his game is beyond sad. Anyone who actually listened to the interview would realize Marino acknowledges that he could be wrong, but the critiques he offered are well considered. I get that people want Allen to succeed as we all should, but to act as if Marino or anyone else who's opinion is based on film study that clearly exposed holes in his game is nothing more than Bills' fan bunker mentality.  He's not going to unsee what Allen showed and change his opinion just because some are in full Allen support mode with a refusal to acknowledge legitimate objective analysis.

 

First of all, it's not a "crusade by TBD".  There are posters who are upset about the pick and bringing in every scrap of media that dislikes it.   And there are people who like the pick, either because they liked Allen all along (based on careful and well considered study or actually watching his games, in some cases) or because "he's a Bill, be a fan".  Let's not pretend there's some  uniform "hive mind" at work here.

 

You make a valid point about not discounting any data-based analysis by someone who puts time into it.

 

At the same time, some are going overboard in the other direction, and discounting equally data-based analysis by other analysts who put time into it and who rate Allen high, saying stuff like "there's no one" who has him rated highly. 

 

The fact is, he's a polarizing player because along with the technique and apparent processing issues, at other times he shows good technique, laser-like throwing precision, and the ability to make reads and progess.  He was playing behind a porous O-line and everyone watching film does not know exactly what the plays were and how he was coached. 

 

So the possibility exists that that he can be good, and people can acknowledge "legitimate objective analysis" and still think so based upon different "legitimate objective analysis".

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

13 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

If you (or anyone else) wants to have faith that the team is doing the best it can, you do you. Just tread carefully about sounding like you're invalidating the opinions of others, especially if they happen to conflict with yours. I'm not the enemy, I just don't like the damn pick

 

Good deal and great post. I suppose my point is that I feel like people who have never met this kid and did not get to talk to him about all of the mistakes he made and things of that nature can only offer a very limited review of his play. It is an incomplete grade. It is based on a very limited amount of information. 

 

I'm a teacher and I have to grade my student's writing. If someone came in and graded my students on their papers, the grade would probably be much different than mine. I know the kid, I know the question I posed, I know the expectation and requirement that I put forth, I know resources they had to work with, I know if they have struggled with a particular process, I know if they did the best that they could because they have single mom who dropped out of high school and can't afford a tutor. My point is that it would be unfair for some outsider to come in and grade that paper, when all they are looking at is the result. 

 

It is an incomplete and uninformed grade imo. Even the Mayock's and the Jeremiahs of the world know these kids very well. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

First of all, it's not a "crusade by TBD".  There are posters who are upset about the pick and bringing in every scrap of media that dislikes it.   And there are people who like the pick, either because they liked Allen all along (based on careful and well considered study or actually watching his games, in some cases) or because "he's a Bill, be a fan".  Let's not pretend there's some  uniform "hive mind" at work here.

 

You make a valid point about not discounting any data-based analysis by someone who puts time into it.

 

At the same time, some are going overboard in the other direction, and discounting equally data-based analysis by other analysts who put time into it and who rate Allen high, saying stuff like "there's no one" who has him rated highly. 

 

The fact is, he's a polarizing player because along with the technique and apparent processing issues, at other times he shows good technique, laser-like throwing precision, and the ability to make reads and progess.  He was playing behind a porous O-line and everyone watching film does not know exactly what the plays were and how he was coached. 

 

So the possibility exists that that he can be good, and people can acknowledge "legitimate objective analysis" and still think so based upon different "legitimate objective analysis".

 

 

 

No. It's not the entirety of TBD or Bills' fans for that matter, but there is an undeniable growing sentiment of he's a Bill now, so don't criticize him.

[greeneblitz]

13 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Good.  I've obviously made it known that the Allen pick was ridiculous and the record is well established on where I stand.

 

When we are going through all this crap again in 2 or 3 years with a new regime at the helm, I'll remind everyone.

 

Don't you people want to get it right?  Or do you just try to make yourselves feel good? 

 

I guess this team is a religion for you, and faith is all you need.

 

Pointing out a few of Allen's debilitating flaws is not a "hot take".

It might not jive with what you hope Allen to be, but that really isn't relevant to the discussion on Allen as a draft pick.

 

 

 

 

hahaha, so funny angry little bird.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No. It's not the entirety of TBD or Bills' fans for that matter, but there is an undeniable growing sentiment of he's a Bill now, so don't criticize him.

I disagree.  There is a sentiment of he's a Bill, so let's support him and hope he does well.  He has things to learn just like any other QB that's ever been drafted.

 

The over the top stuff is the criticism that he will never make it as an NFL QB without actually seeing him throw one pass in the league.   It is not people saying don't criticize him, it is people saying that kind of criticism is ridiculous.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I disagree.  There is a sentiment of he's a Bill, so let's support him and hope he does well.  He has things to learn just like any other QB that's ever been drafted.

 

The over the top stuff is the criticism that he will never make it as an NFL QB without actually seeing him throw one pass in the league.   It is not people saying don't criticize him, it is people saying that kind of criticism is ridiculous.

 

Marino's critique was not over the top, yet look at some of the posts that sought to discredit him and his analysis that points to exactly what I'm referring to. 

[Blokestradamus]

2 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Good deal and great post. I suppose my point is that I feel like people who have never met this kid and did not get to talk to him about all of the mistakes he made and things of that nature can only offer a very limited review of his play. It is an incomplete grade. It is based on a very limited amount of information. 

 

I'm a teacher and I have to grade my student's writing. If someone came in and graded my students on their papers, the grade would probably be much different than mine. I know the kid, I know the question I posed, I know the expectation and requirement that I put forth, I know resources they had to work with, I know if they have struggled with a particular process, I know if they did they best that they could because they have single mom who dropped out of high school and can't afford a tutor. My point is that it would be unfair for some outsider to come in and grade that paper, when all they are looking at is the result. 

 

It is an incomplete and uninformed grade imo. Even the Mayock's and the Jeremiahs of teh world know these kids very well. 

 

I quite like that analogy and I respect the point that you're making. There's a lot more at play with any prospect than just the 60 minutes on the field at the weekend. Whether that is good/bad influences through family or friends, his practice habits, his work ethic, his educational standards. Hell, even just their life experiences in general shape the person that they are.

 

As far as the stuff on the field goes, I'd like to think that, over the course of a whole season, you get a feel for read progressions and game script when you watch the games. I'm admittedly not the best at diagnosing coverages, especially from the broadcast angles. I know that I have flaws, I guess I just assume that maybe even guys that do it for a living do as well. I'd definitely be willing to listen to the guys that have done it if they have a differing opinion to me. I even do that when certain posters disagree with me.

 

There is a universe (perhaps one beyond this realm) where the team can be wrong for the right reasons and I can be right for the wrong ones. I'd happily be wrong and reassess my process if it meant that I didn't have to evaluate another QB until I'm in my 40's

[NoSaint]

13 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Yet you dont see a mock draft by anyone where Josh Allen falls out of the top 10....with a few having him going number 1

 

 

“I think a few teams rank him highly” is all it takes to put a guy high in a mock. And some teams did. Was there a split among GMs though? Probably. But who knows how widely.

[billsfan1959]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No. It's not the entirety of TBD or Bills' fans for that matter, but there is an undeniable growing sentiment of he's a Bill now, so don't criticize him.

In reading through posts prior to the draft and since the draft, I really do not see anything new in regard to criticisms of Allen's abilities - it is all very well documented at this point. I do not begrudge anyone their opinion and I love healthy debates. However, he is a Buffalo Bill now and I personally don't see why anyone would want to continue focusing on the negatives. Once he gets on the field, there will be plenty of opportunities to analyze and discuss what he is doing well and what he is not. Until then, why not take a positive approach? Heaven knows I have endured enough misery with this team over the last fifty years I have followed them - I look forward to these small windows between the draft and the start of the season when I can be optimistic.