Lurker Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said: It's funny how football is only more complicated when it suits your argument. What the defense does, what his receiver does, what his offensive line does, what the weather does...all of these things are completely out of a quarterback's control and ALL of them factor into the outcome of a play, which is what statistics are based on. On the contrary, that's exactly what a QB has to process. He has to adjust, like an auto pilot on an airplane to the conditions. It's not just repeating the same physical activity over and over--and that's why it's the hardest position to play well in sports. At the NFL level, the mental processing has to be there or all the physical talent in the world is useless...
Mikey152 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said: Ok yeah I was thinking I was crazy for a second. To me Josh Allen is the analytics pick. The old school stats don't like him. Statistics like RBIs, homers, TD passes, completion percentage are not analytics in my mind. Those are old school. In my mind, it runs similar to the idea that Josh Allen has the "lowest floor". I think it was Mayock who said it, and I have been saying it for a while too, but when you stop to think about it...Allen actually has the highest floor. He is biggest, strongest, smartest and has the best arm, fastest release, etc. That is the floor. 1
keepthefaith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Little evidence? He played two seasons at Wyoming. Despite all of what you stated he did, he bailed from the pocket too often and showed poor footwork by his own admission that caused inaccuracy that he was worked with Jordan Palmer to correct. Since you asked Rosen did all of what is required at the NFL level and did it on a far more advanced level with consistency. Yes, but these are very young men who still have to learn a lot and adapt to a much tougher league. Some raise their game more than others and I would think that is one of the keys to evaluating players. How much do the player personnel people believe that Allen or any others can improve?
Lfod Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Mikey152 said: Who is getting emotional? We are arguing on a message board. Nobody is saying he is perfect. I'm just tired of all the invented flaws and misinformation parading under the guise of "analytics". Basically, a standard stat is chosen, massaged to make it seem "advanced", and then it is attributed to a single cause without any kind of fact checking, regression testing, etc. The Josh Allen debate is going to happen until the rook hits the field and shows what he has. A lot of these posters are very intelligent sometimes to a fault that they are set in thier ways. It's going to be annoying to those who want to be optimistic about Allen, but it wasn't a popular pick man. It's going to continue to happen until Josh Allen hits the field. If the guy struggles at all in his first games brace for impact because people are going to jump all over it. Edited May 1, 2018 by Lfod
Bills Pimpin' Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 The value of analytics of a player on the field diminishes as the sport becomes more team orientated. Thats why in baseball advanced analytics is becoming such a huge part of the on field evaluation. While baseball is a team sport, the game is essentially a series of one-on-one events where one man's skill is going against anothers. Basketball, with only 5 men on the court is another sport where advanced analytics of on field play will play a big role. In football almost every play on the field is successful because of the work of the entire group or at minimum 2 people. There are very few plays that are successful because of one individual and if it is then it is considered a "broken play". In fact, many times the analysis of a player can be skewed in the wrong direction when said player plays for a great "team". (When was the last QB Heisman winner a Superbowl champ?) There are Advanced Analytics in regards to an individual players skill set and Allen was highly rated in all of those tests, including accuracy. In my mind The Bills used more advanced analytics than any other team when rating the QB's.
26CornerBlitz Posted May 1, 2018 Author Posted May 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Every NFL team 'trades off veteran players' while trying to collect picks. If you think that's evidence that the Browns 'weren't trying to win' we can end this conversation. Over the past four years they've used first round picks on Johnny Manziel, Justin Gilbert, Corey Coleman, Cameron Erving. Analytics may or may not have relevance in today's NFL, but using the Browns of all teams to validate it is asinine. The article focuses on their selection of Mayfield under a new front office. Those previously drafted players are irrelevant to what the piece is about. Let's end it because they were not with no better evidence than taking on Osweiler's cap number for a 2nd round pick with no real intention of utilizing him as a player.
dave mcbride Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, Lurker said: I agree. I just hope he can fix the mechanical flaws. I just don't understand when his coaching staff, the announcers, the team mascot and the beer vendor are saying "set your feet, don't over-stride, don't throw off your back foot, don't just use your arm" that he consistently continued to do those things anyway? Even at the Senior Bowl practices he had some of the same throwing problems. When he calmed down in the second half of that game, after realizing that he had some pass protection, he looked a lot better. But I'm worried about the "deer in the headlights" Josh Allen that I saw in so much of his 2017 game video. Will that guy remember his coaching, or will he revert back to an over-reliance on his strong arm? Training camp can't come soon enough... That's my concern. The adage "people don't change" is obviously not always true, but it's a popular one for a reason.
GoBills808 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: The article focuses on their selection of Mayfield under a new front office. Those previously drafted players are irrelevant to what the piece is about. Let's end it because they were not with no better evidence than taking on Osweiler's cap number for a 2nd round pick with no real intention of utilizing him as a player. So to clarify: per this article the Browns' selection of Mayfield is evidence of the 'New NFL' and their approach to analytics, while the Bills taking Allen is traditionalist. The Browns have been terrible recently under analytical team-building, but your argument is that they haven't really been prioritizing winning and your evidence is the release of veteran players and the accumulation of draft picks (dubious). The article uses Mayfield as an example of the triumph of analytics, which is why I bring up their previous draft picks who were chosen by a different front office but with the same statistical analysis in mind(according to the article). I stand by my original comparison of the Bills and Browns in disagreeing with the article's thrust, on QB evaluation and the value of football-specific 'analytics' in general.
DC Tom Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: I heard they get a bonus for every negative Bills comment. You're thinking of Jerry Sullivan. 1
PromoTheRobot Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 If Allen ever does become a top QB, a lot of people will have egg on their face...and amnesia.
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 The NFL is a whole different animal, a guy like Mayfield will look good in college but in the NFL he will fail. Their is a reason that you don't see a lot of good QB's in the NFL that are under 6ft. Mayfield was my top ranked QB followed by Darnold, Allen and Falk. Its hard to tell which one of these QB's will succeed in the NFL but having the strongest arm, mobility, size and smarts is a huge advantage vs the speed and complexity of a NFL defense.
Don Beebe Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 5 hours ago, TheBeane said: Come on man... Didn't you know everyone in the national media is slanted negatively against the Bills? I have thought that before. But I don't think that they are as hard on the Bills as some of the people on this board. 1
Lurker Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 50 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: If Allen ever does become a top QB, a lot of people will have egg on their face...and amnesia. And if he flames out? We'll hear a lot of crickets, I suspect...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 Just now, Lurker said: And if he flames out? We'll hear a lot of crickets, I suspect... No. We'll hear a lot of gloating.
Lurker Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 Just now, PromoTheRobot said: No. We'll hear a lot of gloating. True. That's human nature and TSW way. But saying "I was wrong" is a rarity as well...
TheBeane Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 25 minutes ago, Don Beebe said: I have thought that before. But I don't think that they are as hard on the Bills as some of the people on this board. After this draft, you couldn't be more correct Mr. Beebe! And thank you for knocking that ball out of Leon Fat Lett's hands. 1
blacklabel Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 The Ringer occasionally has some good articles, but they too often seem to gravitate toward the unpopular opinion on any given topic and it always feels very disingenuous and inauthentic. Seems like they wanna be "that guy" in certain situations in order to stand out and get them clicks. There have been more than a few pieces I've read where I've thought, "Good lord, there's no way the person writing this actually believes it... because if they did, nobody in their right mind would wanna pay 'em to write for them."
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