How Does The Reaction to Josh Allen Compare To JP Losman and EJ Manuel?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

Haha my wife and I were at that training camp and all the sudden he's down and the next thing you hear is EJ is starting the whole practice. I actually remember EJ did pretty well that day and a few TD throws he had on 7 v 7 the team went nuts rushing him to celebrate. He was always a good dude I always wished he succeeded but it just wasn't made to be. That said his first season I actually bought it a bit he could be the dude especially until his knee got injured against CLE. After that the coaching staff seemed nervous to move him around and he seemed hesitant himself to move. It just never was in the cards.

I'd say that Marrone really screwed EJ's development with his hair brained fast paced hurry up offense.   

[Bills757]

8 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I'd say that Marrone really screwed EJ's development with his hair brained fast paced hurry up offense.   

Funny you mention that situation.  While I agree, it's yet one piece of the puzzle.....designing your offense to suit your QB's skills set.  Another is having a WR corps with a wide range of skill sets (slot guy, big athletic guy over the middle, deep threat, possession receiver etc..).....having some consistency at OC and having some playable depth at Oline.  The Bills front office and coaches didn't do the QB any favors gutting the WR corps before last year, changing OC's (which wasn't anyone's fault because McD took over) and having an OC that promised roll outs and getting the QB in space but almost always used a 5 step drop.  Hopefully the Bills will recognize Allen's strengths and play to those strengths.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Pretty much the same as every time: 

 

1) booo, he sucks. Bust. Fail. Fire everyone. 

 

2) yaaay he’s going to Canton. Great kid, has that it factor. Day 1 starter 

 

3) meh, we’ll see hope for the best, prepare for the worst 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know I'm a minority here, but I felt EJ had shown flashes, and that if he were properly developed with a year on the bench, a QB coach who had time to devote to him his rook season (not a QB coach/OC combo) and a proficient vet QB who had made the transition from a spread offense to an NFL offense successfully and could understand where EJ was coming from, he might have had a chance.  I agree that he was at a place where he was "read-(maybe read)-RUN!" and when he took away the "RUN!" part of his game plan he floundered.  Then, it takes an enormous toll on a player's confidence to get benched and treated as EJM did, and it's very hard for them to play well when they first get off of it.

 

I also think he got the "yips" at some point - he was "zip code accurate" at times in college but never "hit the hospitality tent WTF?".   After that he was sunk.

 

People get such a double standard - EJ never threw for 300 yards so you could tell after 4 games that he sucks but AJ McCarron (who has also not thrown for 300 yds in an NFL game)  OK, OK, I know it may not be the same folks but you see my point.
 

 

 

2013  - The Doug Marrone experiment
EJ Manuel      197.2 ypg in 9.5 games and 21 ppg
Thad Lewis    182.0 ypg in 5.5 games 
Jeff Tuel         154.5 ypg in 1.5 games

 

2017 
Tyrod Taylor    186.6 ypg in 15.5 games  and 18 ppg

 

2015 - AJ McCarron  66.4% Comp ratio.       point 3 % better than Andy Dalton 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2015.htm

 

 

I've been saying for a while now that people here have a double standard.  I just don't say it as eloquently as you.  

11 minutes ago, Bills757 said:

Funny you mention that situation.  While I agree, it's yet one piece of the puzzle.....designing your offense to suit your QB's skills set.  Another is having a WR corps with a wide range of skill sets (slot guy, big athletic guy over the middle, deep threat, possession receiver etc..).....having some consistency at OC and having some playable depth at Oline.  The Bills front office and coaches didn't do the QB any favors gutting the WR corps before last year, changing OC's (which wasn't anyone's fault because McD took over) and having an OC that promised roll outs and getting the QB in space but almost always used a 5 step drop.  Hopefully the Bills will recognize Allen's strengths and play to those strengths.

The problem as I saw it.  Marrone wanted to run the hurry up offense.  BUT he only did it with EJ.  When EJ got hurt (both times) and Thad or Jeff stepped in Marrone slowed the pace down.    The fast pace wasn't to any of  the QB's strengths.  

 

EJ failed, but I also lay blame on Doug the Moron Marrone. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[BuffaloRush]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Even go back as far as Brady.

He wasn't asked to do much early on, and wasn't unleashed for a few years.

Most QBs need their hands held and to be brought along slowly because the nuances and difficulty of the NFL QB position is so much different than say, a RB or linebacker.

 

The Bills are going to follow the blueprint of Ben Roesthlisberger as soon as Allen starts.  He’ll have a limited number of passes and will rely heavily on a running game with play action throws.  Big Ben threw under 300 passes in his first few seasons, almost half as much as he’d throw later in his career.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you have a theory as to why?

 

 

It's hardly a theory. It's because most of the draft pundits thought Allen would be a dud. Hence, fact. Obviously McBeane pay little mind to the wisdom of such sages.

[Rico]

4 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Back in 2004, we still had Drew Bledsoe.  There wasn't a feeling of total desperation for us to draft a QB.  Because of that, the move-up for JP Losman was a pretty big surprise, and I don't think people had a great handle on him as a player - at least compared to today, where fans watch hours of online videos to prep themselves.

I recall there were a lot of Brett Favre comparisons with JP Losman, and everyone kept saying how bad Green Bay wanted to draft him.  So even though we was a little bit of a reach (most figured early 2nd Round), I think most fans convinced themselves it was a smart move.

 

With EJ Manuel in 2013, I think most fans were just happy to see the Bills take a CHANCE ON SOMEONE.  Buddy Nix had let three years pass by without drafting anyone, seemingly content with Ryan Fitzpatrick as his QB.  Most fans didn't care if we had to reach.

Before the draft, there were lots of warnings on how terrible the QB class was going to be.  But the Bills had really backed themselves into a corner.  There were lots of rumors that Doug Marrone wanted to draft Ryan Nassib at #8 overall, which really freaked some of us out (he ultimately went in the 4th Round).  At least with Manuel, there were supposedly teams interested in taking him at the end of Round 1 or beginning of Round 2.  After the pick was over, there was some relief that we didn't pick Nassib, some frustration we didn't take Geno Smith and mixed feelings on Manuel overall.

 

 

 

No, Bledsoe was so brutal in 2003 that many, many Bills fans were more than ready to move on. JP represented hope and excitement, especially since he wasn’t a statue.

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know I'm a minority here, but I felt EJ had shown flashes, and that if he were properly developed with a year on the bench, a QB coach who had time to devote to him his rook season (not a QB coach/OC combo) and a proficient vet QB who had made the transition from a spread offense to an NFL offense successfully and could understand where EJ was coming from, he might have had a chance.  I agree that he was at a place where he was "read-(maybe read)-RUN!" and when he took away the "RUN!" part of his game plan he floundered.  Then, it takes an enormous toll on a player's confidence to get benched and treated as EJM did, and it's very hard for them to play well when they first get off of it.

 

I also think he got the "yips" at some point - he was "zip code accurate" at times in college but never "hit the hospitality tent WTF?".   After that he was sunk.

 

People get such a double standard - EJ never threw for 300 yards so you could tell after 4 games that he sucks but AJ McCarron (who has also not thrown for 300 yds in an NFL game)  OK, OK, I know it may not be the same folks but you see my point.
 

 

Do you have a theory as to why?

 

 

Luck looked like he was ready to play, and he pretty much backed that up on the field.  I don't think they dumbed anything down for him on the offense.

Rosen isn't Luck, but he looks like he's ready to play if he has an OL and good WR.  We'll see what McCoy does with the offense. 

Dalton was actually pretty pro-ready as I recall.

 

Prescott, Wentz, Watson, and earlier, Wilson all had a strong component of scheme/coaching to their early success.

EJ proved he sucked after his second year, not his first.

 

His first year was mediocre but acceptable if he took a step forward. He took a step back.  It was his collapse versus the Chargers and Texans where he and his own teammates lost confidence in him.

 

EJM's first two games were his best two.  That's the kiss of death for a QB in the NFL.

Edited May 1, 2018 by jmc12290

[DriveFor1Outta5]

28 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

The Bills are going to follow the blueprint of Ben Roesthlisberger as soon as Allen starts.  He’ll have a limited number of passes and will rely heavily on a running game with play action throws.  Big Ben threw under 300 passes in his first few seasons, almost half as much as he’d throw later in his career.

If only we had the talent of that Steelers team. My biggest concern is that the current regime could be dismissed before Allen achieves his potential. Allen needs to get off to a hot start in the first few years of his career. I just hope Allen’s growth doesn’t correlate into losses. I don’t want to see another regime change. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Bills757 said:

Being a starting QB in the NFL is hard......like real hard.  With athletes getting faster and the complexities of the defenses, becoming a starter AND performing at a consistently high level is super difficult.  Some people think they know how to evaluate but it's become almost a crap shoot these days.  That's why I laughed at so many posters who said we "just needed to draft a franchise QB next year....blah blah blah".....as if you can pick one up at Walmart on your way home from work.  

 

If Allen's progression is normal, he's gonna suck more than he has success in the beginning.  It's gonna take experience and failure to make him better.  This, of course, is going to be unacceptable for many on this board who will take the first opportunity to bash this kid as a bust, a failure......the wrong guy for Buffalo.  They'll rail on the negatives and won't give him a chance.  But hey, that's their right I guess.  

 

Personally, I think Beane had a pretty solid draft and made some good moves.  Every one of the draft picks has his flaws but from what I can see, they definitely have talent.  It's now in the coaches' hands to get these guys up to speed.  

Outstanding.  Really insightful.

 

What McD wants from Allen is for him to keep getting better, week after week. If he's doing that, it could take him 3 or 4 years to become a good QB.  McD will have that patience. Many fans won't. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

5 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

To any old time fans, is the whole Josh Allen debacle similar or different to the most recent attempts at drafting a Bills QB in JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

 

I was around for the JP Losman pick but obviously did not have Twitter and wasn’t on the Bills message board yet.  So to any old time fans what was the reactions to Bills drafting JP Losman?  Was it as polarizing as the Josh Allen pick and were fans and media as negative on it?

 

I did follow the EJ Manuel selection.  I remember people were really really hoping he’d be a good QB, but in the back of everyone’s mind we all knew he probably was going to suck. Despite this, I don’t recall many people in the media panning this pick at the time.   This was right around the time when the “draft experts” were starting to gain popularity as well as the numerous drafting sites.  It could have just been an issue of not having as much information - or the fact that the local media wasn’t as aggressive.  

 

Anyway, if you remember help me out...

 

I don't see Josh Allen as a "debacle" much like I didn't see J.P. Losman as a debacle, I thought ok, the guy has an arm now lets hope he has the smarts to get it to those guys, it didn't work out but i can't fault them for trying, they never tried to move up for Roesthlisberger and it was their downfall in that draft, they traded up for Allen which speaks volumes to me and they choose him over the "more pro ready" Josh Rosen, they obviously think that what needs to be worked on is correctable so my reaction now is we finally got our QB of the future and now we can only hope that's true much like I thought Losman was and much like I had hoped EJ Manuel was but that was a long shot in my mind at the time.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

If only we had the talent of that Steelers team. My biggest concern is that the current regime could be dismissed before Allen achieves his potential. Allen needs to get off to a hot start in the first few years of his career. I just hope Allen’s growth doesn’t correlate into losses. I don’t want to see another regime change. 

I dont think the Pegulas will have a quick trigger with these guys. They're good for at least two more years, probably three and maybe four or five.   

[teef]

i think as long as we see improvement, doesn't even have to be huge leaps at a time, the fan base will get it.  not everyone because some just live to complain, but most.  i think steady improvement is just what we haven't seen from previous qb, (losman, ej, edwards, fitz,taylor, etc).  all of these qbs stayed the same or got worse.

[njbuff]

The most laughable comparisons ever.

 

Allen is LIGHT YEARS the better prospect that Manuel and Losman ever could dream of being.

 

Losman and Manuel were also tremendous draft reaches. Allen is not.

 

Bills fans who are scared of Allen are scared of him because of the failings of Losman and Manuel. Allen is COMPLETELY different.

 

The talent level alone is no comparison whatsoever and the fact that Allen knows the X's O's of the QB position at 22 years old is mighty impressive.

 

I will be surprised if Allen isn't the day one starter. 

 

McDermott has a strong commitment to defense and the running and that will only help Allen.

[oldmanfan]

As I recall, with JP and with EJ there was a generally positive reaction, but tempered somewhat.  People wanted to see what they would show on the field.  With JP, there was some disappointment that we didn't get Rothlesbetger, and everyone knew we weren't getting Manning or Rivers.  Unfortunately JP could never handle the mental aspects and the speed of the game, and EJ also plus some accuracy issues.

 

What I would say is that, particularly with JP, there was nowhere near the level of vitriol you've seen over the past week.  Those who did not like him or EJ said so, said why, but also said they wanted to see how they do.  Contrast that to threads this week calling for the firing of the HC and GM, the threads claiming Allen is a bust before even throwing a pass.  

 

Sometimes I want to kill Al Gore for inventing the Internet.

[John from Riverside]

When we too JP Losman.....I was thinking "talent is there...needs to sit for a while"

 

When we took EJ Manuel.....I was thinking "bets QB in a bad draft".....we did trade down for him so I was actually happy with the value

 

The Josh Allen pick feels differently to me because Josh Allen was taken in what I think will be a all time good QB draft......mayfield, rosen, darnold, jackson.......Allen is in this group of QBs that I think in the end will being at least good NFL starters

 

Give me a lottery ticket in a good NFL QB draft all day and twice on Sunday.

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

To any old time fans, is the whole Josh Allen debacle similar or different to the most recent attempts at drafting a Bills QB in JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

 

I was around for the JP Losman pick but obviously did not have Twitter and wasn’t on the Bills message board yet.  So to any old time fans what was the reactions to Bills drafting JP Losman?  Was it as polarizing as the Josh Allen pick and were fans and media as negative on it?

 

I did follow the EJ Manuel selection.  I remember people were really really hoping he’d be a good QB, but in the back of everyone’s mind we all knew he probably was going to suck. Despite this, I don’t recall many people in the media panning this pick at the time.   This was right around the time when the “draft experts” were starting to gain popularity as well as the numerous drafting sites.  It could have just been an issue of not having as much information - or the fact that the local media wasn’t as aggressive.  

 

Anyway, if you remember help me out...

 

Dude what is your major malfunction?  Seriously, how many threads do we need to bash Allen? I mean the kid hasnt even stepped on the field, so relax already.  Calling it the "Josh Allen debacle" is so f-ing stupid.  Its NOT a debacle, the team got the exact guy they wanted.  You have literally no real ability to analyze collegiate players to succeed in the NFL, just like most of us.  So to sit here and preach over and over what a mistake it was is literally pointless because you dont have any clue if it was because NONE of these guys have attempted even a practice throw in the NFL yet.  

 

I thought it was annoying around here leading up to the draft...but geezus christ, some of you are just going to make the offseason miserable for months.  Buffalo has a QB that was considered with the first overall pick...so no matter how much misguided, uninformed, non-skilled skeptical evaluations you have on him, it doesn't change the fact he has a ton of upside and potential.  

 

As far as this dumb question...its not even remotely the same.  JP was a trade up to get a guy with little left on the board.  EJ was a guy in a weak crop of QB's.  Both had no failed predecessor to reference really.  Now, with Allen...all you arm chair GM's that dont know a fraction about these kids as the teams do want to label him the same as those 2 guys because you wanted a different guy.  I will also point out the guy you wanted was passed on by FIVE QB needing teams, 3 of which actually drafted a QB.  So was not just the Bills who didnt see Rosen as the better choice either, it was 5 teams who could have used a QB that decided there were players they liked better.    

 

Was Allen my first choice...nope.  But who cares, he's got a ton of tools and upside, so lets see what he can do instead of finding passive aggressive ways to slam the kid all day every day.  

Edited May 1, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[B-Large]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

JMO, but teams like the Bills and Browns are the last ones who should take project qbs.  I would feel much better about this if we had Andy Reid or a known qb coach here.  We’re on our 2nd OC in 2 years.

 

Buffalo and Cleveland suck at acquiring veteran QB's,  drafting QB's in general and especially at developing players at said position.  

[Nihilarian]

Both QBs were initially accepted as "about time the team drafted a QB". 

 

The problem was looking at the regimes both were drafted into as I highly doubt any QBs drafted could succeed in Buffalo with the morons in charge during those times!  The crappy coaching staffs, the bad schemes, the bad offensive lines all started right after the team fired a good GM in John Butler.

 

Tom Donahoe traded for Drew Bledsoe and attempted to draft an LT to upgrade the offensive line and yet while the intentions were good and in the right spot, he failed in that pick because of bad scouting. Bledsoe was a brilliant passer when protected and a disaster when under pressure. Needless to say, that bad offensive line kept happening year after year.

 

JP briefly looked good in 2006 but the lack of quality coaching, offensive scheme, lack of a decent offensive line ultimately did him in that as time went on he was seeing, hearing phantom sackers.

EJ had mostly the same problems only more pronounced considering he had no QB coach, no veteran QB and the only guy teaching him in his rookie year was an OC who had never been an NFL OC. No QB could develop under those conditions. 

Trent Edwards, speaking of bad offensive lines. Edwards was concussed right out of the NFL.

 

 

Bottom line here is the majority of this fan base wanted the frail, fragile but slick QB in Josh Rosen and are upset the Bills drafted Allen. Currently, the Bills have three young QB's on the roster just like they did in 2013 except AJ has some good bench experience. I'm very concerned about the offensive coaching in developing Allen, Peterman and that hot garbage offensive line. I only hope to god that Allen doesn't get thrown into the fire this year. Or, the end result might be what we all saw with JP, EJ, TE. 

[rodneykm]

6 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

Josh Allen debacle

 

Debacle? What?