Alonzo Highsmith explains why he flipped from Darnold to Mayfield

[Chuck Wagon]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

GIVE ME A BREAK HERE.  Rosen's character was being torn to shreds in the media.  It's the job of his agents to try to redeem him.  There are crowds of hungry journalists looking for something to print.  They weren't getting stories from Jackson, his mom was picking which calls from teams she'd return and never has given journalists the time of day.  Rosen controversy was good clicks and newsstand.   Agent lined up the stories like a series of hoops, gave the calendar to Rosen, Rosen jumped through the hoops like a good boy.  Allen and Darnold weren't doing similar because no one was trashing their character so their agents weren't setting it up. 

 

Mayfield had some issues, and there were stories on him, too (presumably also set up by his agent)

 

That "seemingly endless series of self-defense articles" tells you NOTHING, NOTHING about Rosen's character nor indicates narcissism, and the fact that someone thinks it does (when it's well known top agents handle their prospects PR and SM as part of their services) just shows how out-of-control this whole "bash Rosen" bandwagon has gotten. 

 

Badlands Meanie already responded to the "ridiculous rant" thing.  If Mayfield had dropped and said the same it would show how edgy and competitive he is.

 

I firmly believe Rosen tried to steer himself away from Cleveland and to NY the whole process.  I don't think his camp ever believed Allen would get taken over him.  I think the narrative got away from them and they had to do all the puff pieces with ESPN to head off a real tumble down the board.

[NoSaint]

14 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I am sure there are a lot of people who think highly of him...but the point is, he has created a divide with his personality, where you didnt have that with the other prospects.  So that alone adds a layer of risk.  

 

Again, all the prospects had pros and cons, not just Rosen.  But the reason people dont like him isnt because he speaks his mind, its his me first attitude that people see in him.  

 

Mayfield did have his own character question marks.

 

while your take on each guy may be accurate, it feels like you are letting your opinions color your arguments too strongly 

[YoloinOhio]

16 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

I get it.  The Browns made a classic Browns pick and took Baker over Darnold, who they admitted they had #1 for most of the year (like most everyone) then flipped to Baker because of some made up word.  Now they have to sell Baker over Wentz / Watson / Darnold to a fanbase that already doesn't trust them.

 

Talking about Rosen and Allen is just unprofessional IMO.  I could never imagine Beane or anyone in his FO basically saying "Rosen is a brat and Jackson can't hit a barn".  

This is true. Mayfield may very well end up being the right choice. But to say their fan base was crushed is an understatement. They are trying hard to sell it. Its tacky how they are doing it though. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Nervous Guy said:

" Performance on the Wonderlic was not significantly correlated with fluid reasoning skills (r=.26) but was most strongly associated with overall intellectual functioning, "

What does the Wonderlic Personnel Test measure?

 

Taking it at face value, what they did is compare the Wonderlic test to another test, and conclude that it matched the other test.  So the whole thing then hinges on whether you think the other test is really a good metric for intelligence or not.

 

As a former researcher, under-impressed with results drawn from a sample size of 37

 

From the abstract: "Analysis yielded significant correlation coefficients between the Wonderlic Total score and the score for the WJ-R Broad Cognitive Ability Standard Battery (r = .55) and the Comprehensive Knowledge score (r= .34)"  For those who don't know, the scale of a correlation goes from +1 to -1.  I'm not a psychology/social science researcher, but back in da day if I handed my boss a study with a correlation of r=.55 and sample size 37 and told him it was significant, he'd have looked at me like I just pissed out my brains and asked if I felt OK.  I don't think the overall principles of probability differ between my field and theirs.  Perhaps the standards for what's considered meaningful get...."different".  It's not just the correlation (which we would have considered "weak sauce"), it's the combination of correlation and sample size. 

 

To see what I mean here's a scatterplot with a negative correlation of 0.5.  "Reasonable person" can look at them and say "yeah, does kinda look like a relationship".  But now mentally take out points until there's only 37 left - would that "reasonable person" still think so?

 

Back to football...

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

they are interviewing Dorsey on 92.3 right now and he’s EATING during the interview! . He keeps chewing and swallowing and talking with his mouth full.

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

I firmly believe Rosen tried to steer himself away from Cleveland and to NY the whole process.  I don't think his camp ever believed Allen would get taken over him.  I think the narrative got away from them and they had to do all the puff pieces with ESPN to head off a real tumble down the board.

 

Question: do you think puff pieces with ESPN, SI etc have an impact on FO professionals?  I would have thought those were just for the fans, for clicks and to sell magazines.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

they are interviewing Dorsey on 92.3 right now and he’s EATING during the interview! . He keeps chewing and swallowing and talking with his mouth full.

 

Personally, I think he screwed it up. I would have went with Darnold and Chubb.  If the Browns messed this up, they should fold.

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Personally, I think he screwed it up. I would have went with Darnold and Chubb.  If the Browns messed this up, they should fold.

So he just said he had Chubb and Ward ranked the same. Interesting. He liked that he went to OSU. I wonder if he’s kissing up to the fan base.

 

he’s still eating!!

[Nervous Guy]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To see what I mean here's a scatterplot with a negative correlation of 0.5.  "Reasonable person" can look at them and say "yeah, does kinda look like a relationship".  But now mentally take out points until there's only 37 left - would that "reasonable person" still think so?

 

 

 

hmmm....I could leave 37 that would make it 1.0.

[Chuck Wagon]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Question: do you think puff pieces with ESPN, SI etc have an impact on FO professionals?  I would have thought those were just for the fans, for clicks and to sell magazines.

 

 

To be honest, I have no clue.  I would like to think no the tape and interviews say everything, but these guys are human and different factors come into play.  It's really difficult to say how much each piece of information has on the process.  I think Lamar is an interesting case study.  I would like to believe his decision to hire his mom as an agent had no impact on this draft standing, but I think the more likely reality is teams saw it as questionable decision making on his part and a guy who very likely could have gone in the teens had he played the process right fell to the last pick of the first round.

 

I will say, from what's been reported about the Browns pick of Baker over Darnold, most in the organization had Darnold as the clear #1 when the season ended and something flipped in the pre-draft process.

 

 

24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Personally, I think he screwed it up. I would have went with Darnold and Chubb.  If the Browns messed this up, they should fold.

 

IMO if Rosen / Darnold / Allen / Baker / Jackson had all entered the 2017 draft, Baker would have been the 8th QB picked.  The Browns passed on all those guys this year and last year plus Wentz.

 

It's bad enough we'll always be looking at Allen vs Rosen / Mahomes / Watson.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Chuck Wagon

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

It bothered me also and is a valid criticism.  I can't think of another top draft QB whose proponents used this excuse.

When Allen said to look at the film not the stats, I had to laugh.  Yea dude, I did look.  You made some great  passes on film, but all the over throws, poor placement, and poor decisions still back up your stats.

 

I thought his receivers were solid.  There were some drops I'd expect when a rocket armed qb has accuracy issues but they seemed very reliable otherwise.

 

His receivers didn't score as many drops vs. Rosen or Jackson, but it has been assessed that they achieved poor separation in games - I think someone said the worst.

That said, Solak's study (the "contextualized QBing" thing) says that Allen only attempted 16% of his throws into tight windows (by Solak's def'n) vs. 21% for Mayfield - another defense (or "excuse") made by Allen supporters being that his completion stats are affected by the number of tight window throws he attempted.

 

I agree with you about what the film shows - he'll make some absolutely unbelieveable throws.  Then he'll make a "WTF?  What were you THINKING?" throw 2 plays later.  Whoever it was (Metzelaars, TheBandit?) may have a point that perhaps his targets were responsible for some of that by reacting to the coverage the wrong way.  The bottom line is he has 'UGE potential, maybe the highest potential in the whole QB class - and probably the least demonstrated ability on film to date.

 

29 minutes ago, Nervous Guy said:

hmmm....I could leave 37 that would make it 1.0.

 

You could leave 2 that would make it 1.0 .  That's why sample size matters.

[Wayne Arnold]

Looks like the Browns are in great hands!

 

 

 

Just kidding.

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Looks like the Browns are in tiny hands!

 

 

 

Just kidding.

FTFY

[Wayne Arnold]

15 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

The Rosen comments ?

 

 

Allen supporters said his supporting cast helped explain his poor completion percentage.

“Baker Mayfield lost two receivers and he was the same quarterback,” Highsmith said.

 

Uhhhh...Oklahoma replaces 4-5 star players with more 4-5 star players. They are a machine. They could lose the entire roster and come back with the most talented team in the country.

 

I think Mayfield is great...but Oklahoma will still compete for a national championship this season without him.

 

Wyoming is...Wyoming. Think they'll win 8 games and a bowl this season without Allen?

 

This guy works for an NFL franchise. Incredible.

 

Goes to show how dumb people can move up so high in NFL front offices.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

im completely fine with all of these guy’s personality and think this year’s draft process was embarrassing for nfl teams.  It all comes down to what they do on the field (...)

 

Word.  /thread IMO.

[Chuck Wagon]

IMO Dorsey fell in love with Baker because he saw Brett Favre 2.0, most everyone else wanted either Darnold or Rosen but now the spin cycle is in full effect.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

I will say, from what's been reported about the Browns pick of Baker over Darnold, most in the organization had Darnold as the clear #1 when the season ended and something flipped in the pre-draft process.

 

This may just show what a "tin hat" wearer I am, but given Haslam's previous demonstrated preference for a small QB with a feisty personality (Manziel) over a bigger, less controversial guy who actually played in the AFC title game last year (Bortles) and his demonstrated mixing it in with draft day decisions - if I were a Browns fan I would worry that what flipped is that Haslam mixed it in and said  "The short guy!  That's the guy we want, he's like JFF with a work ethic!"

 

22 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

It's bad enough we'll always be looking at Allen vs Rosen / Mahomes / Watson.

 

We'll only be doing that if Allen doesn't succeed and those others do.

5 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

IMO Dorsey fell in love with Baker because he saw Brett Favre 2.0, most everyone else wanted either Darnold or Rosen but now the spin cycle is in full effect.

 

Or Drew Brees 2.0.  This would be the best case scenario for the Browns, actually, because it would mean the football folks are in charge making football decisions.

 

I thought there was a legit argument to be made that Mayfield is the best QB in the class and would be consensus #1 if not for his height and his 'tude.  It's their "Spin Cycle", and the concern that it masks a decision made for non-football reasons, that's bothering me.

[Chuck Wagon]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This may just show what a "tin hat" wearer I am, but given Haslam's previous demonstrated preference for a small QB with a feisty personality (Manziel) over a bigger, less controversial guy who actually played in the AFC title game last year (Bortles) and his demonstrated mixing it in with draft day decisions - if I were a Browns fan I would worry that what flipped is that Haslam mixed it in and said  "The short guy!  That's the guy we want, he's like JFF with a work ethic!"

 

 

We'll only be doing that if Allen doesn't succeed and those others do.

 

 

Haslam being the decision maker wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.  But by the same token it does worry me a bit that Pegula might be the reason we chose Allen given some of the comments we've seen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Haslam being the decision maker wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.  But by the same token it does worry me a bit that Pegula might be the reason we chose Allen given some of the comments we've seen.

 

Yes, my "tin foil hat" has me worried about that too.

 

In both cases, I can craft a legit football argument supporting the pick, and in the case of Beane, it seems consistent with other draft choices - going for athleticism and highest potential over highest demonstrated level of football skill - and with his background in Carolina, choosing players that could potentially fill similar roles to players they had there.

 

In both cases, he seems to be going for the biggest potential return over the highest probability of success based on demonstrated accomplishments.

Which leads me to think I might like to play poker and other games of chance with Brandon Beane. 

 

Which is not the feeling I want to have for a GM.  I want to look at a GM and say "nuh, uh, not sitting down at that table, I'd get my clock cleaned"

[Chuck Wagon]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I thought there was a legit argument to be made that Mayfield is the best QB in the class and would be consensus #1 if not for his height and his 'tude.  It's their "Spin Cycle", and the concern that it masks a decision made for non-football reasons, that's bothering me.

 

The likely reality is all of these guys are very good, but flawed prospects.  I think you can make a case for mitigating any of the flaws making any of the 4 a clear #1.

 

If Baker was 2 inches taller and had just slightly less "swagger" it could swing him.  If Darnold turned the ball over just a little less and lived up to USC's playoff expectations.  If Rosen had just slightly less "Rosen" in his personality and didn't have quite the concussion concerns.  If Allen had matriculated to a bigger school and performed well.  Any of those things swing any of the guys to a "clear #1".  I've said through the whole process I would be ok with any of the four and the reality was the 4th guy being so close to the 1st was a good thing that was being spun to a negative.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit if any of the 4 turned out the best and any of the 4 were a bust.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, my "tin foil hat" has me worried about that too.

 

In both cases, I can craft a legit football argument supporting the pick, and in the case of Beane, it seems consistent with other draft choices - going for athleticism and highest potential over highest demonstrated level of football skill.

 

After the barrage of "experts" from 3rd world websites raking us over the coals, I was pretty refreshed to hear Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks take on our draft.  They said well run organizations end up with draft classes full of specific players that fit an overarching culture of an organization.  We want big bodied workers with a blue collar approach.  Our picks fit that theme.  On the flip side they said you can look at classes of poorly run organizations and it's usually just players evaluated for those spots but who don't have much in common with each other.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Chuck Wagon