Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 12 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Four Reasons Josh Allen Starts in 2018 By Nate Geary Now that the draft is over and the roster (for the most part) is set, we can turn our attention to some of the key battles that will play out throughout the summer and into the fall. Obviously, the one position everyone is most concerned about is quarterback. Going into the draft, most experts agreed that Josh Allen was the one quarterback in this draft that shouldn’t ever see the field in 2018. It’s not that he didn’t flash the tools to be a day one starter, rather he needs to refine those tools to become a more consistent version of what a lot of evaluators loved from Allen throughout his college career at Wyoming. Interesting assessment, thanks. I normally really like Cover1, Geary and Turner. But in this case I think I disagree. 35 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said: If anything Allen is best suited for struggling O-Line. McCarron has known nothing but good O-Lines, Allen is the one who played behind bad ones. Well, yes. And what has it gotten Allen? -sloppy footwork when pressured, leading to inaccuracy -struggles to process beyond his first read at times If we want him to fix those problems, it just seems logical to me that we don't want to throw him into the same situation that may have contributed to spawning them.
nedboy7 Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Maybe the coaches can decide. Everyone can just relax. I don’t get the half season start either. Unless we suck.
Thurman#1 Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Four Reasons Josh Allen Starts in 2018 By Nate Geary Now that the draft is over and the roster (for the most part) is set, we can turn our attention to some of the key battles that will play out throughout the summer and into the fall. Obviously, the one position everyone is most concerned about is quarterback. Going into the draft, most experts agreed that Josh Allen was the one quarterback in this draft that shouldn’t ever see the field in 2018. It’s not that he didn’t flash the tools to be a day one starter, rather he needs to refine those tools to become a more consistent version of what a lot of evaluators loved from Allen throughout his college career at Wyoming. 9 hours ago, Domdab99 said: This is a great article and exactly why I think Allen will be the starter. It was a very thoughtful and interesting article. But really really off the point and it deeply confuses opinions and facts. He says, "Now, here I am in early May making the case that Allen likely gives this team the best chance to win." Maybe he does give the team the best chance to win. Maybe not, but maybe. Who cares? Or more specifically, whoever cares shouldn't. What is going to be important next season is maximizing Josh Allen's development. And that will likely best be done on the bench. What will not be important pretty much from January onwards is the difference between winning five games and seven games, for example. It just won't matter in the long run. This team isn't going to win a Super Bowl this year. They simply don't have the roster for it. So once you know that the question should become, "What can we do to make that day, the day we win a Super Bowl, come sooner?" That should be by far the main priority. The article misses that. And that is huge. The article also seriously confuses fact and opinion. He says, "Allen is just better than the other two guys – he just is." And that's nonsense. You could say his ceiling is higher than the others. That's pretty much a fact. But right here right now he's better? That is an opinion, plain and simple, and a very questionable opinion at that. Having said that, I love what 26CornerBlitz is posting. The breakdowns in that article were interesting and he's posted several things that were really good reads or watches. Thanks, 26CornerBlitz. Edited May 11, 2018 by Thurman#1 1 1
Boca BIlls Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Interesting assessment, thanks. I normally really like Cover1, Geary and Turner. But in this case I think I disagree. Well, yes. And what has it gotten Allen? -sloppy footwork when pressured, leading to inaccuracy -struggles to process beyond his first read at times If we want him to fix those problems, it just seems logical to me that we don't want to throw him into the same situation that may have contributed to spawning them. Well I guess he will never learn to get better... those situations will happen even with the best O-line. Doesn't matter how good the O-line is a QB needs to be good under pressure. That isn't a very good response to my argument since playing under pressure is what you need to do in the NFL to be successful. That is why they like his ability to get rid of the ball quickly. Edited May 11, 2018 by Boca BIlls
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Let the best guy play. I don’t care who they are or how they got here. Even if it’s the cfl guy. Play the guy that can help us win the most games. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said: Well I guess he will never learn to get better... those situations will happen even with the best O-line. Doesn't matter how good the O-line is a QB needs to be good under pressure. That isn't a very good response to my argument since playing under pressure is what you need to do in the NFL to be successful. That is why they like his ability to get rid of the ball quickly. Well, I think it's a good response but that may just show how a body can be mistaken in their thoughts. When you retrain your muscles, everything I've seen, experienced, and read on the subject says it needs time to become engrained. When you learn something new, everything I've seen experienced, and read on the subject says your processing speed will start out slow, and then pick up speed as your pattern recognition develops. So Allen can learn to get better by working on engraining his new movement patterns into his muscle memory, refining his ball placement, and watching VR (if the Bills use that), film, and being the scout team guy against pro Ds until the offense and how to react to different looks becomes more habitual and faster. And then he can start. Throwing a guy in to play who picked up sloppy habits or failed to develop progressions behind a crap OL, because we also have a crap OL, sounds to me like a recipe for how to fail to develop Yet Another QB. We can throw him in and he can look crappy and throw a lot of INTs and start sensing phantom pressure, and then we can give up on him because he has bad decision making and bails on the pocket in response to phantom pressure and he can't make progressions. So it goes. "Getting rid of the ball quickly" only counts if you do the right thing with it when you do.
transplantbillsfan Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Sorry if this is already posted-- everything seems to be at this point-- but this is an interview with Brent Vigen on One Bills Live: http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/05-08-wyoming-oc-brent-vigen-one-bills-live This is a guy who recruited and coached Carson Wentz, too. Interesting notes from the interview itself (and yes, he also says all the obvious stuff about making all the NFL throws and such): - Allen won't have trouble transitioning from his "college offense" to an NFL offense in any other way than learning a new playbook. -He's seen the footwork improvements being talked about this offseason with regard to Allen's work with Palmer, and he seems a little bitter about the limitations the NCAA puts on time with coaches for athletes. -Allen (like Wentz) was a very late physical bloomer--likely the reason neither were really recruited by D1 colleges. More to the point, as Allen started at Wyoming in 2015, he was 6'4, but only 205 lbs. Having listened to a few other interviews, I know he was 6'2, 185 lbs as a Senior in HS and 6'0, 180 lbs as a Junior. Plus, he played at a small unknown HS in a small unknown town.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 I secretly would like to see Allen start but I don't want rush him either. Trusting the Process.
Hebert19 Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 On 4/29/2018 at 9:45 AM, Laughing Coffin said: You expect wrong, no way is mayfield starting over Tyrod. Darnold might start for the Jets. Wanting allen to start day 1 is asinine and irresponsible. sit him a year, next offseason and draft get offense early and often to build around him If he's best in preseason why not
tlfcbb Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 All the talk about Allen coming out of college was that he had a high ceiling but also had deficiencies; footwork, accuracy etc. That being the case, I believe that we should work on these deficiencies while giving him time to learn the vast other things required to be an NFL QB. I can't help but think back to the Peterman experience. When the change was announced so many fans supported it and looked forward to what he might bring. 30 minutes of playing time later and a lot of those same people don't ever want to see him play again. I think we need to learn the lessons here. We have a tough schedule and if we were to start him straight away, and suffer a few heavy defeats, what would that do for either his confidence or our confidence in him? Like most here I cannot wait to see him play but I would rather wait and hopefully see a franchise QB for 10 - 15 years that watch him crash and burn early (like we have seen before). I think we are moving forward in a very good direction at present, we have strengthened our defence and got our (hopefully) QB of the future. I expect us to address offence in a big way next year and that should be a big help for Allen.
Rocky Landing Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Boca BIlls said: Did you not say... "If our O-line is struggling by the opener, I think that should lean McD/Daboll towards McCarron as the starter, In my opinion. " Your straws are bent if you didn't realize you said that. If anything Allen is best suited for struggling O-Line. McCarron has known nothing but good O-Lines, Allen is the one who played behind bad ones. I don't know how you would interpret my statement as, "the only reasoning to start McCarron is O-line." That's just a straw man argument. My point is that I believe that Allen needs to be developed. A lot of hay has been made regarding mechanics, his pocket awareness, footwork, etc. If we can't give him adequate protection in the pocket, how does he develop these issues? We have a lot more invested in Allen than we do McCarron, and I feel we need to protect, and develop that investment. And don't get me wrong, if Allen wins the starting job outright, and it's not close, then fine- start Allen. But, IMO, if it's close (and, I suspect it will be), AND our O-line is crappy (which, I also suspect it will be), then I would see that as a risk to Allen's development.
NastyNateSoldiers Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 6 hours ago, LaradiseCowboy said: Like I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again. JA WILL win the offseason. There are little to ZERO QBs in the league that can beat him in camp. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right choice to put him in game 1. Palmer has done an exceptional job developing his game. Hopefully the Bills have good QB coaches who can do the same. We will find out when he plays how well Palmer has done with him. Mof Palmer could have done everything he needed to do for Allen but the one thing that can set him back is natural instincts for the position. Knowing how and when is gonna be the biggest transition for Allen.
transplantbillsfan Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) On 5/8/2018 at 6:50 AM, Maine-iac said: Without mentioning arm strength someone tell me why Allen is so much better than McCarron. I'm not saying AJ is better I just find it fascination that this thread is full of Taylor haters, people saying McCarron isn't going to be any good, yet outside of having "tremendous arm strength" there is not any more on film or paper to like about Allen then there is McCarron. Matter of fact, on paper and on the field in college, McCarron probably has done more. So then we have to talk development. Who here in Buffalo is going to create the "franchise" QB that we just traded a first and two second round picks to land? To address the thread topic I am fine with starting him day one or letting him sit and learn but it really doesn't matter either way if there is no veteran QB showing him the ropes or some Andy Reid like coach calling the plays and explaining the game to him. 2 inches taller Almost 20 lbs heavier SIGNIFICANTLY more athletic and nimble on his feet If you're a Wonderlic guy... McCarron got a 22 while Allen got a 37 McCarron has 4 years on the bench and 3 career NFL starts and didn't play in a pro style offense in College. Allen doesn't have those NFL starts, but he played in a pro style offense in college consistently making checks and reads at the line, calling plays in the huddle, and taking snaps under center. The chip on his shoulder has to be at least as big as McCarron, but probably bigger considering McCarron was part of a team that won 3 National Championships while he was at Alabama, 2 consecutively while he was the starter... I just don't think he has as much to play for, frankly. And OF COURSE McCarron did more in college... look at the team he was on and the players he played with! Oh yeah... and the arm strength thing, too Edited May 11, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
LeGOATski Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Bold prediction: Peterman is the starter in week 1. He's been working on his velocity all off-season. He has the NFL jitters out of the way. I think he's going to crush it in camp and preseason. His accuracy is one of his strengths, which gives him an early edge over the other two guys and he's more mobile than McCarron. We may see him as starter, McCarron as backup, and Allen third string (following Daboll and the QB coach around on game day, whether it's up in the booth or on the sideline). I would be fine with this scenario.
GunnerBill Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: Bold prediction: Peterman is the starter in week 1. He's been working on his velocity all off-season. He has the NFL jitters out of the way. I think he's going to crush it in camp and preseason. His accuracy is one of his strengths, which gives him an early edge over the other two guys and he's more mobile than McCarron. We may see him as starter, McCarron as backup, and Allen third string (following Daboll and the QB coach around on game day, whether it's up in the booth or on the sideline). I would be fine with this scenario. What you call bold I call an indicator of insanity. 2
LeGOATski Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: What you call bold I call an indicator of insanity. I would love to see Peterman beat McCarron. If that's so wrong, then I don't want to be right!
Boca BIlls Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said: I don't know how you would interpret my statement as, "the only reasoning to start McCarron is O-line." That's just a straw man argument. My point is that I believe that Allen needs to be developed. A lot of hay has been made regarding mechanics, his pocket awareness, footwork, etc. If we can't give him adequate protection in the pocket, how does he develop these issues? We have a lot more invested in Allen than we do McCarron, and I feel we need to protect, and develop that investment. And don't get me wrong, if Allen wins the starting job outright, and it's not close, then fine- start Allen. But, IMO, if it's close (and, I suspect it will be), AND our O-line is crappy (which, I also suspect it will be), then I would see that as a risk to Allen's development. That is the only reason you gave...
GunnerBill Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: I would love to see Peterman beat McCarron. If that's so wrong, then I don't want to be right! I don't particularly have high hopes for any of our Quarterbacks. I am talking myself into optimism around Allen's upside but I have re-watched some of him since the dratft and I still stick by what I thought pre-draft.
LeGOATski Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Just now, GunnerBill said: I don't particularly have high hopes for any of our Quarterbacks. I am talking myself into optimism around Allen's upside but I have re-watched some of him since the dratft and I still stick by what I thought pre-draft. Me too. Nothing's changed with Allen. He got the Jordan Palmer treatment, but that will amount to very little towards his NFL development. He needs the McDermott/Daboll treatment and it's going to take some time. I can't say I don't have high hopes for these QBs. I have high hopes for all the Bills. Looking back at the Peterman and McCarron game action, outside of Peterman's meltdown against the Chargers, I see two very similar QBs, but Peterman looks more accurate and mobile.
tlfcbb Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I don't particularly have high hopes for any of our Quarterbacks. I am talking myself into optimism around Allen's upside but I have re-watched some of him since the dratft and I still stick by what I thought pre-draft. Hi Gunner, I wasn't overly excited with the pick either. But I must say the closer the season gets the more excited I am. I do hope they don't start him day 1 but give him time to learn. Like LeGOATski, I would love to see Peterman win the job and start for us because it would show great mental strength and commitment from him. AJ is an unknown commodity for me. Very little tape to assess from an NFL perspective but seems to be very driven. Maybe being finally given a chance to start is just what he needed and he might grab the opportunity with both hands. See, I have just went from thinking we have a so-so QB group to thinking we could have 3 superstars. God help me What have these bills done to me
Recommended Posts