Bills UDFA signings & Rookie minicamp invitees

[Coach Tuesday]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I was intrigued initially in preseason with Petermans quick throws until I realized to my great disappointment from the 50 yard line at New Era that he wasn't making post snap decisions he was just frantically flinging the ball to a spot based on a pre-snap read.    Reads that weren't always right.   I said it here then.   And when he got on the field in LA that's exactly what he did........frantically chucking the ball to spots........and YES that throw to KB was a poor choice based on a poor pre-snap read.   He threw it like he thought he had 15 yards to run when he had a safety bearing down on him.  You don't throw your #1 WR into a big hit for a short gain.  You RARELY see anyone make that kind of kill-shot-inducing throw anymore.  

 

This is exactly correct.  Peterman heaves the ball to a spot on the field and hopes the WR will be in that spot, and for out patterns he throws his entire frame into it and hopes for the best like Fitzpatrick used to do.  He's not dissecting a defense post-snap like many here seem to think.  

Edited May 2, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[PIZ]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

It is run pass option, which is packaging a passing option into run plays. Basically you have a running play, but one WR runs a pattern. It’s not a new concept but has always been used more in college, now it is infiltrating more into the nfl. There are different versions, Urban Meyer/chip kelly/Andy Reid. The reason it’s being talked about with the Bills is that Brian Daboll utilized them at Bama and Allen ran them at Wyoming. This is an example of urban’s  RPO but he uses the QB run a lot more thsn others as part of the packages 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2014/05/35850/runpass-combinations-tom-herman-edition%3famp

 

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  I like it.  Seems like it would make it awfully tough on the defense, if you have a good QB running it.

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

37 minutes ago, PIZ said:

 

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  I like it.  Seems like it would make it awfully tough on the defense, if you have a good QB running it.

 

 

The Texans utilized it a lot last year and Watson looked really good. There are ways to defend it, and the NFL will figure it out. 

[Bills Juggernaut]

Anyone know what the dates are for the first rookie mini-camp?

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

The Texans utilized it a lot last year and Watson looked really good. There are ways to defend it, and the NFL will figure it out. 

 

 

The thing is........it's essentially play action........and play action has been around a long time and is still effective if you can block up front.

 

The big problems with play action are the time it takes to drop back and the QB having to take his eyes off of the defense.

 

RPO removes those from the equation and adds the wrinkle of the QB being able to run.

 

It's tough to defense and extra difficult when you've expended tons of resources on defense getting players who attack to handle offenses like the Pats.

 

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, PIZ said:

 

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  I like it.  Seems like it would make it awfully tough on the defense, if you have a good QB running it.

 

 

Exactly because if you incorporate QB as a run option, the defense has to account for 6 instead of 5. The key is using this without subjecting the QB to unneccesary hits when he becomes a runner. 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Exactly because if you incorporate QB as a run option, the defense has to account for 6 instead of 5. The key is using this without subjecting the QB to unneccesary hits when he becomes a runner. 

Maybe I am just out of touch....but I thought McDermott wanted his QB making plays from the pocket.  If we were running RPO then Jackson would have been a MUCH better option....

 

I dont care if Allen is a huge wilderbeast...I dont want him taking hits

[thebandit27]

51 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The thing is........it's essentially play action........and play action has been around a long time and is still effective if you can block up front.

 

The big problems with play action are the time it takes to drop back and the QB having to take his eyes off of the defense.

 

RPO removes those from the equation and adds the wrinkle of the QB being able to run.

 

It's tough to defense and extra difficult when you've expended tons of resources on defense getting players who attack to handle offenses like the Pats.

 

 

Exactly.  The purpose of PA/RPO is to get the defense to hesitate, and the way defenses are built to attack the LOS these days, that hesitation is all the more troublesome for them.

[MrEpsYtown]

55 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The thing is........it's essentially play action........and play action has been around a long time and is still effective if you can block up front.

 

The big problems with play action are the time it takes to drop back and the QB having to take his eyes off of the defense.

 

RPO removes those from the equation and adds the wrinkle of the QB being able to run.

 

It's tough to defense and extra difficult when you've expended tons of resources on defense getting players who attack to handle offenses like the Pats.

 

 

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Exactly.  The purpose of PA/RPO is to get the defense to hesitate, and the way defenses are built to attack the LOS these days, that hesitation is all the more troublesome for them.

 

I see RPOs and play action as quite different. You can stunt the run against RPOs and they don't offer the variety of a traditional play action passes. RPOs generally leave unblocked players and the way many high school teams are stopping it is they are running the unblocked guys right at the quarterback and smashing his face. In essence, you get a free shot at the quarterback if you don't hesitate. Rather than waiting, they sit the outside backer on the pass and run the unblocked player directly to mesh point with the goal of hitting the quarterback. This speeds up the quarterback's reads and makes him vulnerable to getting hit.  The offense may score on the play, but might lose their quarterback as well. Teams have learned not to hesitate and to force the QB into the decision that they want him to make with stunts and blitzes. When NFL teams start doing that, offenses won't be able to run RPOs anymore. IMO, RPOs don't protect the quarterback enough. It's what happened to RG3, it is what happened to Colin Kaepernick,  it is what will happen to Watson and Baker Mayfield as well. 

[thebandit27]

28 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

 

I see RPOs and play action as quite different. You can stunt the run against RPOs and they don't offer the variety of a traditional play action passes. RPOs generally leave unblocked players and the way many high school teams are stopping it is they are running the unblocked guys right at the quarterback and smashing his face. In essence, you get a free shot at the quarterback if you don't hesitate. Rather than waiting, they sit the outside backer on the pass and run the unblocked player directly to mesh point with the goal of hitting the quarterback. This speeds up the quarterback's reads and makes him vulnerable to getting hit.  The offense may score on the play, but might lose their quarterback as well. Teams have learned not to hesitate and to force the QB into the decision that they want him to make with stunts and blitzes. When NFL teams start doing that, offenses won't be able to run RPOs anymore. IMO, RPOs don't protect the quarterback enough. It's what happened to RG3, it is what happened to Colin Kaepernick,  it is what will happen to Watson and Baker Mayfield as well. 

 

I don't see too many RPO plays that leave defenders unblocked.  I've seen a lot of zone-read plays that do that, but typically with RPO you're covering the majority of the front-7 with blockers; the only unblocked man is the KEY.  Maybe I simply haven't seen as much of it as you have, but it would surprise me if Daboll's plan was to leave unblocked front-7 players.

[Wayne Arnold]

21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The throw to Benjamin was treacherous..........they were sitting on it and that's WHY he got injured.    Throwing your #1 WR into sudden contact for a potential 15 yard gain is not a good decision but at this stage of his career Nate Peterman is just worried about getting the ball into the hands of a WR quick.    He showed that in preseason.   Pre-snap read and chuck it.   That's why he was a 50% passer in the preseason.      

 

This is an awful take.

 

Almost as bad as the poster who compared Allen's tweets to Russ Brandon's indiscretions in the locked Russ thread. Not quite as bad, but in the same ballpark.

[MrEpsYtown]

19 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I don't see too many RPO plays that leave defenders unblocked.  I've seen a lot of zone-read plays that do that, but typically with RPO you're covering the majority of the front-7 with blockers; the only unblocked man is the KEY.  Maybe I simply haven't seen as much of it as you have, but it would surprise me if Daboll's plan was to leave unblocked front-7 players.

 

All the RPOs I have seen are triple options (QB has the option to give it, run it, or throw it), there is a mesh to a back and the quarterback reads the unblocked defender. If the defender plays the running back the quarterback pulls it and looks at the outside backer, usually there is a receiver running a route behind the OLB...if he plays run, the quarterback throws it to the reciever, who is pretty much wide open. (see Baker Mayfield/Mason Rudolph highlights). It happens quick, but what high school teams have done is tell the unblocked defender to force the quarterback to give the ball by smashing the quarterback, stopping the run with the other 10 defenders. You are taking away the "pass" option.  

 

Teams do run it without the first option, the quarterback simply reads the OLB and either throws it, or runs it. If the linebacker sits, the quarterback pulls it and is going to get hit. The bottom line is that defenses can dictate what decision the quarterback makes with stunts and such. You also get many opportunities to light up the quarterback. 

 

I don't love the scheme in the NFL. I think it is a flash in the pan thing...like Kaepernick and RG3 and that is why I am not sold on Watson. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

This is an awful take.

 

Almost as bad as the poster who compared Allen's tweets to Russ Brandon's indiscretions in the locked Russ thread. Not quite as bad, but in the same ballpark.

 

 

You've proven over the years on this board that you know nothing about football.    

 

It's just nice that you post less.    Less is more with you.    Zero would be optimal.

[thebandit27]

9 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

All the RPOs I have seen are triple options (QB has the option to give it, run it, or throw it), there is a mesh to a back and the quarterback reads the unblocked defender. If the defender plays the running back the quarterback pulls it and looks at the outside backer, usually there is a receiver running a route behind the OLB...if he plays run, the quarterback throws it to the reciever, who is pretty much wide open. (see Baker Mayfield/Mason Rudolph highlights). It happens quick, but what high school teams have done is tell the unblocked defender to force the quarterback to give the ball by smashing the quarterback, stopping the run with the other 10 defenders. You are taking away the "pass" option.  

 

Teams do run it without the first option, the quarterback simply reads the OLB and either throws it, or runs it. If the linebacker sits, the quarterback pulls it and is going to get hit. The bottom line is that defenses can dictate what decision the quarterback makes with stunts and such. You also get many opportunities to light up the quarterback. 

 

I don't love the scheme in the NFL. I think it is a flash in the pan thing...like Kaepernick and RG3 and that is why I am not sold on Watson. 

 

What you're saying is true for high school and the college, and for all I know it may end up that way in the NFL, but what I saw last season was that NFL OCs designed their RPO packages to account for all of the box defenders (save for the KEY) and largely reduced the QB run threat.

 

Like I said, I think it's something that Daboll will want to mix in regularly to keep defenses honest and protect Allen...it could end up being a fad/gimmick, in which case I think Allen is going to have to develop faster and further to have success in the shorter term.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe I am just out of touch....but I thought McDermott wanted his QB making plays from the pocket.  If we were running RPO then Jackson would have been a MUCH better option....

 

I dont care if Allen is a huge wilderbeast...I dont want him taking hits

There are different versions of RPO.. think Nick Foles running it. It’s not the “read” option. Most NFL teams do not want to run the QB in an urban Meyer type version because of the risks associated. In fact Houston is changing their offense to try to alleviate that with Watson. 

[Wayne Arnold]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

You've proven over the years on this board that you know nothing about football.    

 

It's just nice that you post less.    Less is more with you.    Zero would be optimal.

 

Love the personal attacks. Keep em comin, they're great.

 

A perfect strike down the middle of the field = treacherous

 

Comical.

[Doc]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

Love the personal attacks. Keep em comin, they're great.

 

A perfect strike down the middle of the field = treacherous

 

Comical.

 

Well, the safety was 10 yards away when KB caught it.  You know you need to throw balls to guys with wide open paths to the endzone.

[MrEpsYtown]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

What you're saying is true for high school and the college, and for all I know it may end up that way in the NFL, but what I saw last season was that NFL OCs designed their RPO packages to account for all of the box defenders (save for the KEY) and largely reduced the QB run threat.

 

Like I said, I think it's something that Daboll will want to mix in regularly to keep defenses honest and protect Allen...it could end up being a fad/gimmick, in which case I think Allen is going to have to develop faster and further to have success in the shorter term.

 

Gotcha. I think NFL teams will find ways to force the quarterback to run the ball and cover the pass. As a high school coach, we find ways to force the quarterback to do what we want him to do. It is t hard to figure out who the key is is. The defense can dictate the action and even bait the quarterback into making bad throws. Our strategy though is to smash the quarterbacks face in every chance we get. As we saw with the zone read, it takes the NFL a year or two, but I don't think is going to be an effective scheme in the NFL going forward. I do think it is a nice wrinkle to have. 

[JoeF]

Bills bringing in Austin Apodoca QB - WSU/NM and CFL for a tryout... according to Benjamin Albright

 

Benjamin Allbright‏Verified account @AllbrightNFL 13m13 minutes ago

 

 

#Bills not done looking at QBs. Bringing in former Washington State/New Mexico and Winnipeg(CFL) QB Austin Apodaca for a workout next week.

 

 

 

 

[YoloinOhio]