Is Beane making the same mistake Whaley made?

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

Just now, Yeezus said:

 

and this is why taking a damn project QB was an awful decision. not bc of his skillset, but b/c we just don't have the coaches here to develop him. 

 

Rosen could have came in year 1 and performed just as well or close to Tyrod. putting up 140 yards per game with 20 attempts isn't hard to do. Ppl don't know but Rosen is the best QB in the draft under pressure, he gets the ball out quicker than everyone. Would have been perfect with our poor oline situation. 

 

 

that explains it, a rosen fanboy.

[The Now Moment]

What part of process do you not understand?

[sullim4]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I would have liked Rosen, but he would have been a project too.  All of them will be, just the degree varies in what each of them have strengths and weaknesses.

 

Coaches?  We'll see.  Daboll was sought after.  And if McD isn't satisfied with Allen's progression he's shown he's not afraid to make changes.

 

Has Daboll ever successfully developed a quarterback?  He's had young big name talent thrown at him in the past (Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Matt Moore) and none of those guys are any good.  Saban ran the show at Alabama  This is why I didn't like the Daboll hire at the time given that it was very likely we'd be drafting a young quarterback high in the draft.

 

I have felt that a number of our previous quarterbacks have suffered from poor coaching.  Hackett with Manuel, Turk Schonert with Edwards, Losman and Steve Fairchild... those aren't exactly inspiring coaches there.

 

I'd love to be wrong on all of this.  Please let me be wrong.

[jtothebrown]

31 minutes ago, mellaman101 said:

Who let you out of the basement and can I borrow your crystal ball when you are done crying?

Does he not have valid points??

 

I wonder sometimes how many of these posters on here work for the team. 

[mjt328]

Maybe.  The key point is Josh Allen.

 

When you draft a 1st Round QB, it will either save or sink the franchise.  

 

Whaley’s failure had nothing to do with focusing more on offense or defense.

[Boatdrinks]

37 minutes ago, Yeezus said:

1. Draft a project QB in the 1st round 

 

2. Doesn't bring in a coach to teach project QB. Our HC has no idea how to develop a QB, our OC doesn't exactly have much experience either, and our QB coach has been a WR coach for the past 10 years. Very concerning. 

 

3. Draft heavy on defense (despite how much better defense was than offense). Whaley did move up for Watkins but he drafted mostly defensive players when Rex came, changed the system and drafted 3-4 players who are all gone now. 

 

Pretty worrying so far. Our defense def had holes to fill, but I think some people tend to forget how many games they won us this season. I can maybe think of 1 or 2 games where the defense let us down. This offense right now is not an ideal place where a rookie QB can come and learn. We have the worst line in the league by a longshot. We have 1 extremely injury prone WR and an aging RB. 

 

 

 

 

 

How many draftniks/ mock drafts etc had EJ Manuel projected as a top ten QB ? Or even going in the first round. Any QB that year, for that matter. No, it's not similar. This draft went where the talent dictated. They probably would have taken a WR in round 2 or early 3 if they had those picks available. The early trades prevented that. They could have kept those picks and taken Lamar Jackson in the late 1st. That would have left room for some offense in round two, early third. They chose another route, but it's quite different from EJM. 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, sullim4 said:

 

Has Daboll ever successfully developed a quarterback?  He's had young big name talent thrown at him in the past (Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Matt Moore) and none of those guys are any good.  Saban ran the show at Alabama  This is why I didn't like the Daboll hire at the time given that it was very likely we'd be drafting a young quarterback high in the draft.

 

I have felt that a number of our previous quarterbacks have suffered from poor coaching.  Hackett with Manuel, Turk Schonert with Edwards, Losman and Steve Fairchild... those aren't exactly inspiring coaches there.

 

I'd love to be wrong on all of this.  Please let me be wrong.

Allen needs work.  I suspect not nearly as much as some do here; from the way some talk he is completely inept.

 

Let him sit and learn.  McCarron plays this year, and he's been around the block and can help bring Allen along.

[Charlottebillsfan2]

I can respect your opinion and concerns but considering they are coming off a playoff birth perhaps we should cut them some slack. Perhaps they are dialed in to what the team needs and have a plan.  

 

At the end of the day if they hit on Allen this draft will be a franchising changing moment. Let’s see this thing play out. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Charlottebillsfan2

[Epstein's Mother]

35 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

yes, yes he is. don't expect any of the draft picks to pan out and they win only 2 games in 2018 giving them a high pick in 2019 only to have yet the 2019 draft picks fail and beane will be fired by mid season 2019.

 

 

So you're saying Super Bowl in 2020 then?

[CuddyDark]

37 minutes ago, Foxx said:

?? in any succcessful relationship, you have both parties working together. in the GM/HC relationhip, the GM should most likely identify the players that will help fulfill said HC's coaching philosophy and obtain them.

Beane is here for research. McDermott is the blueprint. He's getting his players. Players that fit what he wants going back to the Eagles and the defense and offense he learned from Reid and Johnson. Beane is the GM and I take nothing from him but if it doesn't work Beane will go before McDermott. This is the same relationship Reid has in KC and Belichick in NE and Pete in Sea. McDermott took a job that gave him total control. It's really clear that this is McDermott's operation.

[Jpsredemption]

Not impressed with this regime yet. They have a lot to prove yet.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

29 minutes ago, sullim4 said:

Has Daboll ever successfully developed a quarterback?  He's had young big name talent thrown at him in the past (Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Matt Moore) and none of those guys are any good.  Saban ran the show at Alabama  This is why I didn't like the Daboll hire at the time given that it was very likely we'd be drafting a young quarterback high in the draft.

 

I have felt that a number of our previous quarterbacks have suffered from poor coaching.  Hackett with Manuel, Turk Schonert with Edwards, Losman and Steve Fairchild... those aren't exactly inspiring coaches there.

 

I'd love to be wrong on all of this.  Please let me be wrong.

 

Daboll does not have a track record of success in developing a QB.

 

I would not call Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, or Matt Moore "young big name talent" Daboll had to work with:

1) Brady Quinn was in his 3rd year as the Brown's QB when Daboll arrived in 2009; he was drafted in 2007 at #22, the 2nd QB drafted that year after JaBustus Russell.  By the time Daboll got there, it was already pretty clear he was not going to develop in accord with Charlie Weiss  touting him as "a combination of Tom Brady and Peyton Manning", but certainly promising QB have developed after year 3, and it has to be allowed Daboll didn't bring anything out in Quinn.  133 ypg, 8 TD, 7 INT.  Of course, neither did anyone else.

2) Colt McCoy was a 3rd round pick in 2010 whose NLF.com draft profile reads " Unfortunately his skills don't translate to his being a lock to make it big at the next level. He has an adequate arm but can struggle when needing to throw a dart on the intermediate to deep outs and the ball will float on him at times when deep passes down the seam."  Not Big Name talent.  Uncertain what Cleveland's overall roster plan was in giving Daboll McCoy, Delhomme, and Seneca Wallace to work with that year

3) Matt Moore was signed as an UDFA by the 'Boys in '07 and claimed off waivers by the Panthers.  He spent 4 years with them and started parts of 2010, struggling with injuries, before being signed by Miami and coached by Daboll.  Again, not big name talent when Daboll got to work with him

 

Overall, I agree with you "please let you be wrong", because I kind of feel the same way - I'd feel a lot better if we were hiring a good QB coach or if we had someone who has actually played in the NFL more than AJ McCarron on the roster.  I'm hoping for the best.

[Golden Goat]

16 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

Not impressed with this regime yet. They have a lot to prove yet.

 

Ending the playoff drought wasn't impressive enough for you? Were you expecting a Super Bowl win in the first year? Would that have impressed you?

Some people just aren't very realistic.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Golden Goat

[Sweats]

1 hour ago, Yeezus said:

1. Draft a project QB in the 1st round 

 

2. Doesn't bring in a coach to teach project QB. Our HC has no idea how to develop a QB, our OC doesn't exactly have much experience either, and our QB coach has been a WR coach for the past 10 years. Very concerning. 

 

3. Draft heavy on defense (despite how much better defense was than offense). Whaley did move up for Watkins but he drafted mostly defensive players when Rex came, changed the system and drafted 3-4 players who are all gone now. 

 

Pretty worrying so far. Our defense def had holes to fill, but I think some people tend to forget how many games they won us this season. I can maybe think of 1 or 2 games where the defense let us down. This offense right now is not an ideal place where a rookie QB can come and learn. We have the worst line in the league by a longshot. We have 1 extremely injury prone WR and an aging RB. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can only remember 1-2 games where our D let us down?.........you must have forgotten the 3 game stretch where we were blown out by somewhere around 120 points.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Beane is here for research. McDermott is the blueprint. He's getting his players. Players that fit what he wants going back to the Eagles and the defense and offense he learned from Reid and Johnson. Beane is the GM and I take nothing from him but if it doesn't work Beane will go before McDermott. This is the same relationship Reid has in KC and Belichick in NE and Pete in Sea. McDermott took a job that gave him total control. It's really clear that this is McDermott's operation.

 

I'm not sure this is right. 

 

Yes, McDermott is saying "these are the qualities I value in the players I need", just as any head coach does.  I think he had strong input into the draft board.

 

But I think all the evidence shows that Beane is in charge of the show and is sometimes tossing McDermott major curveballs in the player personnel decisions (eg Sammy trade, Dareus trade, etc).  Beane is NOT just here for research, he's here to manage the cap and figure out how to build and refresh a competitive roster within it, and that means he has control.

 

If you'd like to point out what you see as McDermott's "total control" and McDermott's operation, that'd be fine.

[Putin]

1 hour ago, Yeezus said:

 

how so? please explain. 

Does it really needs any explanation? 

[Success]

Others have said this - but Allen was consensus top 5.  #1 on some boards.  One scout said he was the alpha of all of this year’s QB’s.

 

EJ was a massive reach in the 1st round, in a year that was terrible for QB’s.

[Putin]

36 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Beane is here for research. McDermott is the blueprint. He's getting his players. Players that fit what he wants going back to the Eagles and the defense and offense he learned from Reid and Johnson. Beane is the GM and I take nothing from him but if it doesn't work Beane will go before McDermott. This is the same relationship Reid has in KC and Belichick in NE and Pete in Sea. McDermott took a job that gave him total control. It's really clear that this is McDermott's operation.

There’s obviously McDermott’s finger prints all over , but I completely disagree that it’s McDermott’s operation, there is nothing wrong with the HC and GM to be on the same page and work together , 

And for a first year HC to have complete control is a little premature don’t you think ?

[US Egg]

One thing is sure, the Bills have the least game tested/experienced QB roster in the league.  

[dgrochester55]

"1. Draft a project QB in the 1st round"

 
2013, we got rid of our previous starter without a replacement and on draft day had no option at quarterback, this forced us to reach for someone.  2018, we had a veteran backup and draft capital to take a chance on a large prospect.  Huge difference

 

Allen has things he needs to work on, but there is a huge difference between Allen and Manuel.  Allen was a almost unanimous projection as a top 10 pick, Manuel was a reach that should have been a mid round pick in perhaps the worst year to draft a quarterback in decades.    We also have a reliable  backup in McCarron.  Assuming no assault from a floor mat, the situation of being rushed in before ready is not likely.

 

"2. Doesn't bring in a coach to teach project QB. Our HC has no idea how to develop a QB, our OC doesn't exactly have much experience either, and our QB coach has been a WR coach for the past 10 years. Very concerning."

 

How do you know this?  Is this your speculation or are there numbers that back up your opinion that our coach and offensive coordinator wont be able to develop a quarterback?  

 

"3. Draft heavy on defense (despite how much better defense was than offense). Whaley did move up for Watkins but he drafted mostly defensive players when Rex came, changed the system and drafted 3-4 players who are all gone now."

 

I wish there was more at wide receiver, but I like the picks for the most part.  The defense overachieved last year and needed better players upfront.  Edmunds and Phillips can hopefully fill that void.    In addition to that, as of now most of the player changes to fit the system have already happened and the people that Beane and McDermott want on defense are in place, there is nowhere to go but up from here.

 

"Pretty worrying so far. Our defense def had holes to fill, but I think some people tend to forget how many games they won us this season. I can maybe think of 1 or 2 games where the defense let us down. This offense right now is not an ideal place where a rookie QB can come and learn. We have the worst line in the league by a longshot. We have 1 extremely injury prone WR and an aging RB."

 

There are some valid worries there, the line in my opinion is not as bad as some think, but there could be trouble if McCoy gets hurt or does not produce.  On the bright side, with McCarron there,   Allen does not have to be ready right away.

 

Going back to the point of your post, there are many differences between now and 2013.  I feel like you have already taken the worst case scenario and made that fact in your mind.  Lets see what happens in the next few months.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by dgrochester55