D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: In fairness the Steelers did say they had round 2 value on him but determined for the run on receivers they had to take Washington there to get him and then started immediately trying to get back up for Rudolph and that Green Bay were the first team willing to move and where the deal made sense. The NFL will be wrong on Josh Allen. If anything I am more convinced today than I was yesterday. I hope you're not becoming one of those draft people that being correct is more important than being a Bills fan! 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, /dev/null said: Not implying it’s not standard practice man, or that it hasnt worked, just that QBs are irrationally inflated.
GunnerBill Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: We will see. It's a good pick in the sense that they didn't spend a blue chip asset on him and his strength (throwing downfield) matches up well with their offense. But his physical skillset is much closer to Tommy Maddox than Big Ben, and reading defenses is not something he's proven he can do. Oh I don't think he is going to be Big Ben. I don't think his ceiling is that high. He isn't going to be a top 5 Quarterback in the league. I see his ceiling as more Eli Manning - and I have made that comparison before. I think his ceiling is a guy who can bounce between top 8 and top 12 have a couple of very good years mixed in with some ordinary ones. I've said ceiling - Eli; floor - Matt Moore; middle of the road - Dalton.
racketmaster Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Good spot for him to land and eventually take over for Big Ben. I thought he would go much higher and would not have been mad if Bills got him at 22. He was frustrating to evaluate because he seemed to have everything but a strong arm. His arm was right on the fence of either being just enough or a big problem. Overall, I lean toward his arm being just strong enough. I think he could end up having a solid career like Cousins or Foles who were also drafted in similar spots.
Coach Tuesday Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Oh I don't think he is going to be Big Ben. I don't think his ceiling is that high. He isn't going to be a top 5 Quarterback in the league. I see his ceiling as more Eli Manning - and I have made that comparison before. I think his ceiling is a guy who can bounce between top 8 and top 12 have a couple of very good years mixed in with some ordinary ones. I've said ceiling - Eli; floor - Matt Moore; middle of the road - Dalton. The thing is, Manning was running an elite offense in college (I watched a ton of his Ole Miss games) - he was making checks at the line, reading defenses, and shredding them single-handedly - it was obvious what he would become at the NFL level. Rudolph has been a defined-read guy at Ok St. and the jury is out as to whether he can elevate his game. Edited April 28, 2018 by Coach Tuesday
GunnerBill Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, horned dogs said: I hope you're not becoming one of those draft people that being correct is more important than being a Bills fan! I am 100% not. I will cheer Josh every snap he takes for us and I am not going to be here disecting every throw in training camp and beyond. I have absolutely no problem being wrong. I was wrong about Shaq Lawson (I loved him) I never hide from my mistakes or refuse to change my opinion when the evidence dictates. 1
Coach Tuesday Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, GunnerBill said: I am 100% not. I will cheer Josh every snap he takes for us and I am not going to be here disecting every throw in training camp and beyond. I have absolutely no problem being wrong. I was wrong about Shaq Lawson (I loved him) I never hide from my mistakes or refuse to change my opinion when the evidence dictates. I tried to dig up the Shaq Lawson pick thread, I predicted in that thread that Whaley would be fired for that pick and it looks like I was right (sorta). I also thought Bradham was a "home run" pick. Those are the two times I've been right.
GunnerBill Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: The thing is, Manning was running an elite offense in college (I watched a ton of his Ole Miss games) - he was making checks at the line, reading defenses, and shredding them single-handedly - it was obvious what he would become at the NFL level. Rudolph has been a defined-read guy at Ok St. and the jury is out as to whether he can elevate his game. Yes that is fair and it is why he was more of a projection than an Eli Manning coming out of college. But the NFL is still in love with college guys running pro-schemes in a relatively unhealthy manner in my opinion. Mason Rudolph's intermediate range accuracy is top 2 in this class. If he can be a good decision maker he is an accurate enough passer. I think the mental side is easier to learn sitting than the accuracy side.
26CornerBlitz Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: I understand it’s done and why. But it’s still not entirely rational to me that guys not ready to play yet are picked ahead of ones that are. The positional importance artificially inflates value. There's nothing artificial about it given the criticality of the position which explains why an intial year of investment with little to no return is perfectly fine with the payoff coming in subsequent years.
Coach Tuesday Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think the mental side is easier to learn sitting than the accuracy side. Agreed. The Bills have a tough task ahead trying to teach Allen to elevate his game.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said: There's nothing artificial about it given the criticality of the position which explains why an intial year of investment with little to no return is perfectly fine with the payoff coming in subsequent years. You’re just rationalizing ?
26CornerBlitz Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said: You’re just rationalizing ? Rationalizing? No, you seemingly don't get it. QB is simply in a different category in the NFL.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 I think fans sometimes forget about how important potential and projection are to the teams in the draft. It is a chance to get talents that are not readily available for the roster. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, horned dogs said: I think fans sometimes forget about how important potential and projection are to the teams in the draft. It is a chance to get talents that are not readily available for the roster. I think some NFL teams forget how important it is to ask the question "what is he if this is him?" They have what I often term "coaching arrogance" that they can make everyone better. I was a semi-pro soccer coach and I had it I thought I could improve everyone. Potential and projection matter. But you should always, always ask yourself.... if what I see is what I get then can he play in this league? I think too many NFL personnel people still lose their minds and ultimnately their jobs chasing upside. Edited April 28, 2018 by GunnerBill
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think some NFL teams forget how important it is to ask the question "what is he if this is him?" They have what I often term "coaching arrogance" that they can make everyone better. I was a semi-pro soccer coach and I had it I thought I could improve everyone. Potential and projection matter. But you should always, always ask yourself.... if what I see is what I get then can he play in this league? I think too many NFL personnel people still lose their minds and ultimnately their jobs chasing upside. Good thoughts about coaching arrogance. Sometimes they get it right too and see things that others don't. They see the throws that a guy is making in college and realize that it's not an NFL throw and doesn't translate as much. It is a very different game than the college game, a lot of projection is involved. And, yes sometimes things are not correctable. I honestly feel like teams look at Allen and Rudolph this way: Allen- not many guys that big, or atheltic, or with that arm, or that intellect, or that can throw on the run etc., and they say there isn't really anybody else with all those skills, and more, in one package. And, you can't get it very often. They look at someone like Rudolph and the package he brings is much more common and easier to find.
GunnerBill Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, horned dogs said: Good thoughts about coaching arrogance. Sometimes they get it right too and see things that others don't. They see the throws that a guy is making in college and realize that it's not an NFL throw and doesn't translate as much. It is a very different game than the college game, a lot of projection is involved. And, yes sometimes things are not correctable. I honestly feel like teams look at Allen and Rudolph this way: Allen- not many guys that big, or atheltic, or with that arm, or that intellect, or that can throw on the run etc., and they say there isn't really anybody else with all those skills, and more, in one package. And, you can't get it very often. They look at someone like Rudolph and the package he brings is much more common and easier to find. I am 100% sure you are correct. I just don't know if I think they should. But anyway... I am at the end of Allen conversations now. 1
Lurker Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 9 hours ago, whatdrought said: Draft niks had this guy in the first round (in the top 15)... Shows ya that nobody knows nuthin! When though? In early February, when the first lists come out, or in April after all the boards are built?..
26CornerBlitz Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Mason Rudolph Takes Exception to Not Being Drafted with Top Tier of 2018 QBs After five quarterbacks were selected in the first round of the 2018 NFLdraft, it was a long gap before the Pittsburgh Steelers selected Mason Rudolph with the 76th overall pick in Round 3. Unsurprisingly, the Oklahoma State product was not happy about the disrespect, via Jeremy Fowler of ESPN:
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