Opinions on why we passed on Rosen?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Thurmanator 12074 said:

He got passed over because Allen is the better QB and was the best QB in this draft bar none.

 

Now that Allen is a Bill, I sincerely hope he becomes the best NFL QB in this draft bar none.   He seems to be a smart, hardworking kid and I'm pulling for him.

 

But it's kind of hard to construct a cogent and persuasive argument for that "Best QB in the draft bar none" thing based upon college metrics - game film, completion percentage, etc.

 

I'm not sure what you're seeing as "statistics as good as Carson Wentz".  Certainly not completion percentage.

 

21 minutes ago, Thurmanator 12074 said:

So Beane makes a deal with Denver to get Allen which would cost him both number ones. That the deal falls through because chubb falls to Denver. So Bills keep trying and hit pay dirt at 7 with Tampa. This is really where it gets interesting. Most thought it would be Rosen but if you had been listening to Beane through the whole process there was never a chance he would take Rosen over Allen because Allen fit the Can Newton profile he is on board with. Beane told us what his QB model he wanted would draft. 

 

I think you're correct here.  Clearly Beane places a high weight on sheer athletic potential - I think we see that in his other draft picks - Beane has multiple times referred to Cam Newton as a franchise QB so he clearly believes in him and values his style of play.  And several evaluators have commented about Wyoming having "Carolina-like" elements in their offense including designed runs.

 

Whether Beane made the correct choice or not, will be shown in the upcoming seasons.  I personally weight demonstrated throwing ability and accuracy higher for QB.  This is based upon hard experience.  I thought Fitzpatrick could improve his accuracy.  Then I thought EJ Manuel could improve his accuracy.  I was wrong, wrong both times.  Now I'll hope Allen can improve his accuracy.  Third time's the charm?

 

Go Bills!

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

You got it right Thurminator - except he was at Jr. college only 1 year. I think Bills brass didn't think that Rosens personality and desires were a match for Buffalo. In addition to their concerns of his long-term durability. He is probably a great passer when the pocket is safe, but when it breaks down around him he's done. 

 

What I've noticed is that former NFL players - Phil Simms, Trent Dilfer, Chris Carter seem to love Allen. Stats geeks who haven't played the game are his critics. I think he can be really special., He reminds me of a young, less refined John Elway. We all need patience with Bills coaches and not rush the kid onto the field too soon. Let him develop properly. We can go 0-16 this year, just don't crew up the development of Allen. 

 

I don’t think this is nitpicking, but total yards is about the ONLY area where the stats are even close. Wentz had a much better completion percentage (64 vs 56), better YPA, much better TD/Int ration, better passer rating, etc. You lose credibility if you try to say his stats were just as good - they were not. Now, I’m not saying Allen can’t be the guy, I’m just saying if you make stuff up you might get corrected. 

 

I hope they take their time with Allen, and with better coaching and better surrounding talent he can become our Franchise QB. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Augie

[Alphadawg7]

On 4/27/2018 at 11:38 AM, PIZ said:

They didn't pass on Rosen.  They liked Allen better.

 

Amazing how hard it is for people to understand the simplicity of this fact.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

What I've noticed is that former NFL players - Phil Simms, Trent Dilfer, Chris Carter seem to love Allen. Stats geeks who haven't played the game are his critics

 

Troy Aikman, who I believe may be a former NFL player and not a stats geek - seemed fairly puzzled by the selection of Allen over Rosen during the draft.

Trent Dilfer sees a lot of potential, but he also has criticism and caveats:

"Dilfer raved about Josh Allen’s traits and compared the Wyoming product to a “probably even more powerful” version of Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, but cautioned that he’s still a work in progress. “He has everything 1980s and 1990s football wanted in a quarterback,” Dilfer said. “He is big, strong, athletic, huge arm, tough physically, mentally. I mean, he’s got the trait makeup. "He’s not a great player yet. He needs to learn how to play the game better. What I’ve been talking about him is he’s a 650-horsepower engine that doesn’t have the car built around to sustain that horsepower. He needs to build the automobile."

 

When you compare that to what he say about Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen, I'm not sure it sounds like "love".

 

I don't want to be that civet who gets in between you and your cappuchino, and I'm pulling for Allen now that he's a Bill, but I think it is important to keep grounded.

[17 Josh Allen]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

I don’t think this is nitpicking, but total yards is about the ONLY area where the stats are even close. Wentz had a much better completion percentage (64 vs 56), better YPA, much better TD/Int ration, better passer rating, etc. You lose credibility if you try to say his stats were just as good - they were not. Now, I’m not saying Allen can’t be the guy, I’m just saying if you make stuff up you might get corrected. 

Carson Wentz 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	North Dakota State					392	612	64.1	5115	8.4	8.8	45	14	153.9
2012	North Dakota State	MVC	FR	QB	8	12	16	75.0	144	9.0	11.5	2	0	191.9
2013	North Dakota State	MVC	SO	QB	11	22	30	73.3	209	7.0	7.6	1	0	142.9
2014	North Dakota State	MVC	JR	QB	16	228	358	63.7	3111	8.7	8.8	25	10	154.1
2015	North Dakota State	MVC	SR	QB	7	130	208	62.5	1651	7.9	8.7	17	4	152.3

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Josh allen

 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Wyoming					365	649	56.2	5066	7.8	7.7	44	21	137.7
2015	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	2	4	6	66.7	51	8.5	8.5	0	0	138.1
*2016	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	14	209	373	56.0	3203	8.6	8.3	28	15	144.9
*2017	Wyoming	MWC	JR	QB	11	152	270	56.3	1812	6.7	6.9	16	6	127.8

Josh Allen one less TD then Wentz he played 15 less games also 100 less passing yards basically then Wentz again in 15 less games. Also Wentz played on a better team with better offensive line. So yes what would or could  Allen have done with 15 more games of stats.  I think probably a lot more. I will take Allen every time. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Thurmanator 12074

[Andy1]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Troy Aikman, who I believe may be a former NFL player and not a stats geek - seemed fairly puzzled by the selection of Allen over Rosen during the draft.

Trent Dilfer sees a lot of potential, but he also has criticism and caveats:

"Dilfer raved about Josh Allen’s traits and compared the Wyoming product to a “probably even more powerful” version of Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, but cautioned that he’s still a work in progress. “He has everything 1980s and 1990s football wanted in a quarterback,” Dilfer said. “He is big, strong, athletic, huge arm, tough physically, mentally. I mean, he’s got the trait makeup. "He’s not a great player yet. He needs to learn how to play the game better. What I’ve been talking about him is he’s a 650-horsepower engine that doesn’t have the car built around to sustain that horsepower. He needs to build the automobile."

 

When you compare that to what he say about Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen, I'm not sure it sounds like "love".

 

I don't want to be that civet who gets in between you and your cappuchino, and I'm pulling for Allen now that he's a Bill, but I think it is important to keep grounded.

Fair point there. I am by nature an optimist - how can I not be as a Bills fan. All we can do is wait and hope the kid is the real deal. If people don't like him, they can go buy a red and white Rosen jersey. 

9 minutes ago, Thurmanator 12074 said:

Carson Wentz 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	North Dakota State					392	612	64.1	5115	8.4	8.8	45	14	153.9
2012	North Dakota State	MVC	FR	QB	8	12	16	75.0	144	9.0	11.5	2	0	191.9
2013	North Dakota State	MVC	SO	QB	11	22	30	73.3	209	7.0	7.6	1	0	142.9
2014	North Dakota State	MVC	JR	QB	16	228	358	63.7	3111	8.7	8.8	25	10	154.1
2015	North Dakota State	MVC	SR	QB	7	130	208	62.5	1651	7.9	8.7	17	4	152.3

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Josh allen

 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Wyoming					365	649	56.2	5066	7.8	7.7	44	21	137.7
2015	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	2	4	6	66.7	51	8.5	8.5	0	0	138.1
*2016	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	14	209	373	56.0	3203	8.6	8.3	28	15	144.9
*2017	Wyoming	MWC	JR	QB	11	152	270	56.3	1812	6.7	6.9	16	6	127.8

Josh Allen one less TD then Wentz he played 15 less games also 100 less passing yards basically then Wentz again in 15 less games. Also wentz played on a better team with better offensive line. So yes what would have Allen done with 15 more games of stats.  I will take Allen every time. 

Wow! Never knew that. i never noticed he played 15 fewer games than Wentz. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Andy1

[Scorp83]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:34 PM, Klaista2k said:

Rosen was talked about as probably the best pure pocket quarterback in the draft. He was available for the Bills to grab but they passed. 

Any options on why exactly we didn't like him?

 

-Injury concerns?

-Attitude?

-Concerns about playing in the cold weather?

-Was he just overrated in general?

 

Thoughts?

Because most of the league along with the Bills was sold pie in the sky

[PIZ]

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Amazing how hard it is for people to understand the simplicity of this fact.

 

Thank goodness they traded up and chose Josh Allen over Josh Rosen.  Can you imagine the posts if say Miami traded up and got Rosen and then the Bills were left with no one accept for Allen?  I suppose then though, they would be saying we should have drafted Lamar Jackson.

 

I didn't want Josh Allen before the draft, but now that he is a Bill, I couldn't be happier.  The more I read about him, and the more interviews I see of him, the more I see what Beane, McDermott, and the Pegulas see.

 

 

 

[LeGOATski]

I haven't read through this whole thread and this has probably been mentioned already, so apologies if I'm beating a dead horse.

 

The #1 reason they chose Allen over Rosen, IMO:

 

Coachability

 

In his post-draft PC, Beane basically answered this question as he stated the following:

 

All these QBs have some flaws, so it depends on what you can deal with. Josh Allen's personal makeup and character will allow him to improve on his flaws and make corrections.

 

While watching his pro day, Daniel Jeremiah said that Allen has made the most improvement (for QB in his process leading up to the draft) than anyone he's ever seen. This is a testament to what Bean said.

 

Allen has all the physical tools needed to succeed, so there is nothing they need to compensate for there (basically, reason #2 for drafting him). At the end of the day, as long as Allen commits himself to the process and utilizes everything he learns, which they believe he will, then they also believe that he will reach his potential. A potential that is as great, if not greater, than any QB in this class and possibly ever.

Edited April 29, 2018 by LeGOATski

[Oregonbillsfan]

Rosen is one concussion away from being Trent Edwards.

[Peace Frog]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Rosen may view it as, a team could (in theory) have traded to #4, so 9 teams.  I cut him some slack there.  I think he felt he had excellent visits at 2 teams which passed him up (Jets and Bills) and was (understandably) a bit shaken.

 

No one has ever said great athletes all have sterling personalities.  Quite a few, by all accounts, are self-absorbed douchebags.  (of course, the converse isn't necessarily true)

 

Anyway, I find it curious that when Mayfield makes ultra-competitive, maybe arrogant statements (he's the guy to turn the Browns around etc) he's fiery and shows passion for the game and carries a motivational chip on his shoulder.  When Rosen does similar, he's douchy and self absorbed.  It seems like a double standard, and somewhat irrelevant too.

 

It is quite possible that Rosen is douchy, self-absorbed, and will make an excellent NFL QB.  But, he won't do it here so my interest is abstract.

 

I have no double standard in that regard.  Mayfield is no different than Rosen in that category and it's something that I don't like in pro athletes.  The epitome of ideal personality in a player I think would be Kyle Williams and Fred Jackson.  Confident, but not arrogant.

3 hours ago, Rosen-not-Chosen said:

 

I'm not a Cardinals fan, I'm a Bills fan.

 

I'm not a Pegula, Beane or McDermott fan, I'm a Bills fans, was a Bills fan long before any of them showed up.

 

Of course we have to wait to see how it turns out, but as of now, I'm saying the picked the wrong QB, epic fail.

Fair enough.  I'm saying we picked the right QB, epic success.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

I have no double standard in that regard.  Mayfield is no different than Rosen in that category and it's something that I don't like in pro athletes.  The epitome of ideal personality in a player I think would be Kyle Williams and Fred Jackson.  Confident, but not arrogant.

 

Fair enough.  I don't mean you specifically.  But I do see it (a double standard) with regard to Rosen vs Mayfield in the media and with many fans.

 

I love me some FredEx.  Obviously I also got some KW love going down.  But to be fair, they are the epitome of the underdog - the guys who found success in the NFL only after working thier a**es off for years to get where they were. 

 

Mayfield was a walk-on, but he shot to the top of his team pretty quickly.  Rosen was "Chosen Rosen" from HS on.  I think it's harder for young men who get a lot of success and attention early to stay on the "confident" side of that "confident/arrogant" line.

[Foxx]

i think it's pretty obvious. the Bills are severly allergic to Affluenza.

[mob16151]

Josh Rosen to me seem"s like Kevin Kolb V2.0. And we all saw how that story worked out for buffalo.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Oregonbillsfan said:

Rosen is one concussion away from being Trent Edwards.

 

That was my #1 concern, followed by his personality/attitude. Having said that, he’s already a polished QB. Like everything else, we’ll have to wait and see. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Thurmanator 12074 said:

Carson Wentz 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	North Dakota State					392	612	64.1	5115	8.4	8.8	45	14	153.9
2012	North Dakota State	MVC	FR	QB	8	12	16	75.0	144	9.0	11.5	2	0	191.9
2013	North Dakota State	MVC	SO	QB	11	22	30	73.3	209	7.0	7.6	1	0	142.9
2014	North Dakota State	MVC	JR	QB	16	228	358	63.7	3111	8.7	8.8	25	10	154.1
2015	North Dakota State	MVC	SR	QB	7	130	208	62.5	1651	7.9	8.7	17	4	152.3

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Josh allen

 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Wyoming					365	649	56.2	5066	7.8	7.7	44	21	137.7
2015	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	2	4	6	66.7	51	8.5	8.5	0	0	138.1
*2016	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	14	209	373	56.0	3203	8.6	8.3	28	15	144.9
*2017	Wyoming	MWC	JR	QB	11	152	270	56.3	1812	6.7	6.9	16	6	127.8

Josh Allen one less TD then Wentz he played 15 less games also 100 less passing yards basically then Wentz again in 15 less games. Also Wentz played on a better team with better offensive line. So yes what would or could  Allen have done with 15 more games of stats.  I think probably a lot more. I will take Allen every time. 

 

Geez, I really didn’t mean to make you angry, but thank you for making my point with the above charts I was too lazy to post. I’ll give you the TD total is similar as well as the yards. HOW he got these volume numbers is also important. The efficiency numbers such as completion %, YPA, QB rating, TD/INT ratio are very important. 

 

More important than racking up more yards and TD’s with another season (at least in my mind), is how he might have used an additional year to hone his skills and make himself more efficient. I’m not sure how much it would have helped, because I’m unsure of the quality of coaching and the supporting cast was weak (as was the competition for the most part, to be fair and balanced). 

 

Look, I’m not an Allen hater at all and I’m trying to get fully on board. He is our QB. I’m just not going to pretend Allen and Wentz had the same skill set coming out.  Wentz was able to step in and quickly achieve a POY level of play. Everybody acknowledges Allen needs some time to develop his skills. That’s not being negative, just facing ALL the facts. 

[C.Biscuit97]

52 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i think it's pretty obvious. the Bills are severly allergic to Affluenza.

They just picked a couple sons of nfl players.

[Bangarang]

3 hours ago, Thurmanator 12074 said:

Carson Wentz 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	North Dakota State					392	612	64.1	5115	8.4	8.8	45	14	153.9
2012	North Dakota State	MVC	FR	QB	8	12	16	75.0	144	9.0	11.5	2	0	191.9
2013	North Dakota State	MVC	SO	QB	11	22	30	73.3	209	7.0	7.6	1	0	142.9
2014	North Dakota State	MVC	JR	QB	16	228	358	63.7	3111	8.7	8.8	25	10	154.1
2015	North Dakota State	MVC	SR	QB	7	130	208	62.5	1651	7.9	8.7	17	4	152.3

Player News

  

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Josh allen

 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Wyoming					365	649	56.2	5066	7.8	7.7	44	21	137.7
2015	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	2	4	6	66.7	51	8.5	8.5	0	0	138.1
*2016	Wyoming	MWC	SO	QB	14	209	373	56.0	3203	8.6	8.3	28	15	144.9
*2017	Wyoming	MWC	JR	QB	11	152	270	56.3	1812	6.7	6.9	16	6	127.8

Josh Allen one less TD then Wentz he played 15 less games also 100 less passing yards basically then Wentz again in 15 less games. Also Wentz played on a better team with better offensive line. So yes what would or could  Allen have done with 15 more games of stats.  I think probably a lot more. I will take Allen every time. 

 

You keep bringing up the amount of games Wentz played compared to Allen but Allen actually finished his college career with more pass attempts..

Edited April 29, 2018 by Bangarang

[Wayne Arnold]

Maybe Conor McDermott told them that Rosen is a dick and not a leader.

[SoTier]

Beane & Company fell for the lure of a big QB with a big arm.