What I Don't Understand About Fan Reaction to Allen

[QB12]

Allen is not the guy.

 

Too bad Baker Mayfield wasn't available.

[Bill_with_it]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

EJ failed in Buffalo mostly because of the clowns who were coaching him decided not to hire a QB coach or even have a veteran QB on the roster. The only guy EJ had to learn from was Nathanial Hackett who had never been an NFL offensive coordinator previously.

 

Want a sure fire way to ruin any QB prospect? Don't hire a QB coach. Don't have a veteran NFL QB on the roster and instead have three rookies all trying to figure stuff out on their own. Then have the guy teaching them with no NFL experience in his job teaching this three rookie QBs the NFL ropes.

 

What an unholy clusterfluck of stupidity by Bills head coach Saint Doug Marrone. EJ never had a fair chance to develop under Marrone.

Not true Todd Downing Carrs qb coach coached EJ. He also had the same collegiate coaching as Winston and every year he went to qb clinics. Ej failed because ej was a bad qb, not for lack of resources committed or work ethic.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Neither were considered as highly of as Allen.  They just were not.  

 

Allen, like Losman and Manuel, is a project considered "raw", and the track record of first round "projects" is terrible.  Few, if any, first round projects in the last 30 years or so have been successful.  I'm not optimistic about him developing into a successful NFL QB.

[Mat68]

10 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Allen, like Losman and Manuel, is a project considered "raw", and the track record of first round "projects" is terrible.  Few, if any, first round projects in the last 30 years or so have been successful.  I'm not optimistic about him developing into a successful NFL QB.

One word.  Neither were the generational talents Allen is.  Allen is a legitiment franchise potential Qb in any draft.  Losman was a consilation price and Ej had the most to work with in a terrible qb draft.

[Fadingpain]

10 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I have been on this wonderful board for many, many years. Now, I am reading these posts that are absolutely hating the Allen pick and it is hard to understand why. Almost every season, I was on this board blasting yet another idiotic first round pick by the Bills. For instance:  A #8 (in a stacked draft) on an undersized Donte Whitner? How about a 1st on a half dead Willis McGahee? In 2008 we had a very poor OL. It was awful. We drafted Leotis McKelvin, passing up both Ryan Clady and Branden Albert.

 

I could go on and on but my point is that fans were generally supportive of these clearly stupid picks. Now, we finally use resources on a big, strong quarterback and most people seem to hate the kid. Why? Because he said stupid things when he was a toddler? Because he went to a small school?

 

After what seemed like forever, we took a chance on solidifying the most important position on the field. We moved up to make sure we landed a qb with a cannon arm. What is SO freaking bad?

 

I for one am glad that we did something smart (for a change) in round 1, and welcome this young man to Buffalo.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Bill.

 

It's because Allen has huge deficiencies to his game that are highly unlikely to be fixed at the NFL level.

 

Further, the most polished/ready QB in the draft was still available when we picked and we passed on him.

 

That's where the contention lies.

EJ was a big/powerful/athletic guy with a really strong arm too.  That's not really that important at the NFL level these days.

 

Do Brees/Rodgers/Brady strike you as big tough guys?  

 

 

[Epstein's Mother]

1 hour ago, QB12 said:

Allen is not the guy.

 

Too bad Baker Mayfield wasn't available.

 

Yeah.  He almost slipped to 7.

[MTBill]

Lately, this place is feeling a lot like "Network".  Fans are mad as hell and they aren't going to take it any more.  Their opinion and that of at least one pundit in the media - because there is a real shortage of media opinions to meet anyone's flavor - matters more than everyone else's, and damnit we have to hear it.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure but EJ's career wouldn't have been saved if he had had a stronger arm. That's the problem with picking Allen. A strong arm isn't enough. We just have to hope he develops.

 

 

The arm strength is just part of it...........EJ was painfully slow developing muscle memory.........he was doing Manning camp in HS and then even after 4 years of starting at FSU his footwork was still terrible........he knew what to do he just couldn't physically repeat it in-game.  

 

At the time they drafted him I likened the project to the development of former ML pitcher Randy Johnson learning how to throw strikes......took him till about 30 to get his arms and legs in sync..........it was going to take a long time to develop EJ but maybe someday he would get there. 

 

The hope was that in the meantime he might be able to manufacture offense and play a conservative game in support of a good defense.    Didn't work out but I would not be surprised if he gets on the field in a few years and turns into a journeyman bridge QB.   

 

Allen is a far more coordinated athlete and natural-motion thrower of the football than EJ.    

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure but EJ's career wouldn't have been saved if he had had a stronger arm. That's the problem with picking Allen. A strong arm isn't enough. We just have to hope he develops.

 

And therein is my problem with Allen: we traded up for somebody we have to hope develops.  I would have been much more accepting of taking him at #12 than at #7.  I just think that Beane has set the franchise back significantly unless Allen comes through and is at least as good as Flacco, Dalton or Tannehill.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The arm strength is just part of it...........EJ was painfully slow developing muscle memory.........he was doing Manning camp in HS and then even after 4 years of starting at FSU his footwork was still terrible........he knew what to do he just couldn't physically repeat it in-game.  

 

At the time they drafted him I likened the project to the development of former ML pitcher Randy Johnson learning how to throw strikes......took him till about 30 to get his arms and legs in sync..........it was going to take a long time to develop EJ but maybe someday he would get there. 

 

The hope was that in the meantime he might be able to manufacture offense and play a conservative game in support of a good defense.    Didn't work out but I would not be surprised if he gets on the field in a few years and turns into a journeyman bridge QB.   

 

Allen is a far more coordinated athlete and natural-motion thrower of the football than EJ.    

 

I missed your thoughts on the pick. yea or nay?

 

Initially not a fan, but have warmed to it.

 

[Epstein's Mother]

5 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

And therein is my problem with Allen: we traded up for somebody we have to hope develops.  I would have been much more accepting of taking him at #12 than at #7.  I just think that Beane has set the franchise back significantly unless Allen comes through and is at least as good as Flacco, Dalton or Tannehill.

 

Uh... one of these guys is not like the others.  Joe Flacco has a freakin' Super Bowl ring.  Dalton's 0-4 in the playoffs and Tannehill's still dreaming about the playoffs.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Epstein's Mother

[SoTier]

24 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

One word.  Neither were the generational talents Allen is.  Allen is a legitiment franchise potential Qb in any draft.  Losman was a consilation price and Ej had the most to work with in a terrible qb draft.

 

What, exactly, makes Allen a "generational talent"?   He's got size, a big arm, and some mobility.  Whoopty-doo.  So did any number of collegiate QBs who failed in the NFL.  It takes more than that, and Allen hasn't demonstrated that he's got more.     

5 minutes ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Uh... one of these guys is not like the others.  Joe Flacco has a freakin' Super Bowl ring.  Dalton's 0-4 in the playoffs and Tannehill's still dreaming about the playoffs.

 

As all three have demonstrated in their careers, they are decent NFL QBs who can take their teams to the playoffs with the right personnel around them and can even win the Super Bowl in the right circumstances, but they're not in the same class as Rodgers or Brees or even guys like Roethlisberger or Stafford.

 

Actually, I believe that the Carp did make the playoffs in 2015 or 2016 BTW.

[Epstein's Mother]

8 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Actually, I believe that the Carp did make the playoffs in 2015 or 2016 BTW.

 

The Dolphins did make the playoffs in 2016. My mistake.

[Rosen-not-Chosen]

13 minutes ago, SoTier said:

What, exactly, makes Allen a "generational talent"?   He's got size, a big arm, and some mobility.  Whoopty-doo.  So did any number of collegiate QBs who failed in the NFL.  It takes more than that, and Allen hasn't demonstrated that he's got more.

 

A lot of Bills fans are simply incapable of being critical of the franchise, no matter how many decades they have been ****.

[Mat68]

13 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

What, exactly, makes Allen a "generational talent"?   He's got size, a big arm, and some mobility.  Whoopty-doo.  So did any number of collegiate QBs who failed in the NFL.  It takes more than that, and Allen hasn't demonstrated that he's got more.     

 

As all three have demonstrated in their careers, they are decent NFL QBs who can take their teams to the playoffs with the right personnel around them and can even win the Super Bowl in the right circumstances, but they're not in the same class as Rodgers or Brees or even guys like Roethlisberger or Stafford.

 

Actually, I believe that the Carp did make the playoffs in 2015 or 2016 BTW.

Your in your right if you choose to be negative that is fine.  Allen was rated as 1,2,3 Qb in a very deep draft depending where you look.  Maybe you are looking at CBS who has Rudolph 1 who is not drafted yet..  Ej Manuel and Jp Losman are not the same caliber of Qb prospect Allen is.  There was talk he goes top 5 last year above Trubisky, above Mahomes, above Watson.  This year he went above Rosen and Jackson.  Neither Ej or JP would have gone ahead of either Rosen or Jackson.  

19 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

What, exactly, makes Allen a "generational talent"?   He's got size, a big arm, and some mobility.  Whoopty-doo.  So did any number of collegiate QBs who failed in the NFL.  It takes more than that, and Allen hasn't demonstrated that he's got more.     

 

As all three have demonstrated in their careers, they are decent NFL QBs who can take their teams to the playoffs with the right personnel around them and can even win the Super Bowl in the right circumstances, but they're not in the same class as Rodgers or Brees or even guys like Roethlisberger or Stafford.

 

Actually, I believe that the Carp did make the playoffs in 2015 or 2016 BTW.

Best arm in the last 20 years.  More athletic then Wentz.  Has similar traits to Cam Newton.  Turned around a perennial bottom feeder College to the first back to back bowl games since 88-89.  

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is a far more coordinated athlete and natural-motion thrower of the football than EJ.

 

I don't have the scouting knowledge to say if this is right or wrong but I'll take your word for it. One thing I agree on is Allen is more raw than EJ was, and that's a positive. What we know now is that when we drafted EJ he had already reached his ceiling. The hope with Allen is that his muscle memory isn't so ingrained that it can't be fixed. Its still a long shot IMO but it's possible. I mean he's been playing football for a while now so I don't know if he will get much better than he is now. He's only a year younger than Manuel was when we drafted him. I'm in wait and see mode.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't have the scouting knowledge to say if this is right or wrong but I'll take your word for it. One thing I agree on is Allen is more raw than EJ was, and that's a positive. What we know now is that when we drafted EJ he had already reached his ceiling. The hope with Allen is that his muscle memory isn't so ingrained that it can't be fixed. Its still a long shot IMO but it's possible. I mean he's been playing football for a while now so I don't know if he will get much better than he is now. He's only a year younger than Manuel was when we drafted him. I'm in wait and see mode.

Waitaminutewaitaminute...how often did we have to talk about how 4-year vet Taylor was still 'developing', but now Allen somehow won't?

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Waitaminutewaitaminute...how often did we have to talk about how 4-year vet Taylor was still 'developing', but now Allen somehow won't?

 

I'm talking about muscle memory. Some negatives of Allen's game - poor decision making, panicking under pressure, reading a defense - I believe he can improve on. It isn't a guarantee but it can be done with coaching and experience. I'm just not sure his natural accuracy and footwork will ever improve. I don't know if there are any good examples of QBs that had footwork as messy as his who eventually fixed it. Usually the best case scenario is they'll fix it for a few games before inevitably reverting back to old mechanics. It would be one thing if Allen had minimal football experience but he's been playing for years. That muscle memory is already there. That's what concerns me more than anything.

[Buffaloflash]

10 hours ago, Magox said:

Considering that the Browns, Jets, Broncos, Bills passed up on him and that the Dolphins could have easily secured Rosen and they all passed on him, I suppose you could say that it wasn't just a Billsy sort of thing to do but an actual decision making GM sort of thing

It was the Trump hat thing : )

He was Fluff!

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm talking about muscle memory. Some negatives of Allen's game - poor decision making, panicking under pressure, reading a defense - I believe he can improve on. It isn't a guarantee but it can be done with coaching and experience. I'm just not sure his natural accuracy and footwork will ever improve. I don't know if there are any good examples of QBs that had footwork as messy as his who eventually fixed it. Usually the best case scenario is they'll fix it for a few games before inevitably reverting back to old mechanics. It would be one thing if Allen had minimal football experience but he's been playing for years. That muscle memory is already there. That's what concerns me more than anything.

I think it can be improved on. Peyton Manning IMO is an good example of a guy who retooled his footwork to extend his career once his arm strength faded and he got injured...he started doing those choppy little half-steps so his arm wouldn't have to make up for an out-of-position platform. It wasn't pretty but it worked.