Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, racketmaster said: You make a good point about the sacks. But Tyrod took a lot of sacks as well. I think it is the style of play that Rodgers and Tyrod would give outside the pocket. There will be sacks, but they will also make a bunch of big time plays when extending plays (mostly pertains to Rodgers). You will get very little of that from Eli and Rosen. Once the pocket breaks down he must escape the tackle box to throw it away. Because if he takes any longer he will get sacked from behind. So yes, the sacks may be similar but the big plays from outside the pocket are not there to compensate. I think you're missing my point, perhaps because I'm not explaining it well enough. When you have a mobile QB like Rodgers who all of a sudden has seasons where they BLIP! take a league-leading number of sacks, 50% or more over their average, most fans want to say "Hmmm, why is that?" Maybe his OL was missing a piece, or maybe he was missing a key outlet in his WR. If Rodgers always took 50 sacks a season, you'd be whoa, it's a problem. But he doesn't. Similar thing with Eli and INT. Most of his seasons, he throws an unremarkable mid-teens number of picks. There have been 3 seasons, scattered about his career, where his # of picks has shot up and his number of TDs have dipped, so most fans want to say "Hmmm, why is that?" Maybe his OL was missing a piece or maybe he was missing a key outlet in his WR. If he always threw >20 INTs a season, you'd be whoa, it's a problem. But he doesn't. Have you answered the question just who is it you do want to see the Bills draft for QB?
BillsVet Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, billsfan60 said: Soooo... whatchagonnado???? Darnold gone 1st, all the rest have equal or worse warts than Rosen and we are sitting with McCarron and Peterman. Obviously you stick with McCarron and Peterman, make it a fair competition (because the NFL needs to be fair like Little League) and use your picks to draft straight need. Use your picks on LBs, RBs, interior OL, and of course more CBs. QB's are risky and therefore taking them high should not be an option unless it's an absolute guarantee. /sarcasm 1
bobobonators Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Bobby Hooks said: Heck yeah, I’ll take two Super Bowls. Thanks! Seriously. What is wrong with some people. No I don’t want a HOF QB. I’ll rather pass. I only want to draft the next Tom Brady so let’s pass until he comes along.
Lagoon Blues Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 So a person who has opinions that you obviously don't like and chooses to speak them is immature emotionally. Got it.
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think you're missing my point, perhaps because I'm not explaining it well enough. When you have a mobile QB like Rodgers who all of a sudden has seasons where they BLIP! take a league-leading number of sacks, 50% or more over their average, most fans want to say "Hmmm, why is that?" Maybe his OL was missing a piece, or maybe he was missing a key outlet in his WR. If Rodgers always took 50 sacks a season, you'd be whoa, it's a problem. But he doesn't. Similar thing with Eli and INT. Most of his seasons, he throws an unremarkable mid-teens number of picks. There have been 3 seasons, scattered about his career, where his # of picks has shot up and his number of TDs have dipped, so most fans want to say "Hmmm, why is that?" Maybe his OL was missing a piece or maybe he was missing a key outlet in his WR. If he always threw >20 INTs a season, you'd be whoa, it's a problem. But he doesn't. Have you answered the question just who is it you do want to see the Bills draft for QB? Yes, I have answered that question already several times. Darnold is my top choice. I think he checks every box (minus ball security concerns that I believe can be corrected to some degree). I think he can be an elite (top 5 qb) for a long time. If we can't get Darnold, then I would like to see the Bills be patient and wait. Mayfield goes in the top 5 but I could see either Allen or Rosen falling to 12 or close to that. Take the qb that falls and we keep most all of our picks and still have a qb with upside. I also happen to be a believer in Mason Rudolph who I do not think is far off from (Mayfield, Rosen and Allen) as an overall prospect. So if Bills are beaten to the punch, we can take Rudolph (I see as a Foles or potential Rivers) type qb and we keep our picks. Anytime any of the top qbs are slightly criticized their defenders tend to get overly defensive. I think this post was in response to what I am hearing and seeing from fans regarding Rosen. People seem very willing to trade significant assets to get him at #2 or #4 because they think he is the best prospect or the clear second best prospect. I just think he is in that second tier with Mayfield and Allen. I believe a more cautious approach might be the best way to go in this particular draft. I just don't view Rosen as an elite enough player to mortgage a bunch of picks, especially when this is a deep qb class and having some patience would allow us to fill in a lot of other holes.
MJS Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 There are plenty of QB's in this league without mobility. One of them happens to be the best of all time and has won more Superbowls than anyone (Tom Brady). So stop.
Teddy KGB Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Irv > Racketmaster Bring the op Vince Young or Jt Barrett Edited April 26, 2018 by Teddy KGB
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 13 minutes ago, Lagoon Blues said: So a person who has opinions that you obviously don't like and chooses to speak them is immature emotionally. Got it. I don't share my opinions on the topics Rosen has tweeted on in the past so you don't no what I agree with or don't. I think Rosen would admit that at least in his past he has been immature and said things that maybe he should not have said. He believes he has grown up but how much is yet to be determined. There is a very real chance that Rosen does not hit it off with his Head Coach or Offensive Coordinator. Much more so than the other prospects. This might not be the case but Rosen said this week that if his coaches are bringing it everyday that they might have issues. You can take that as a positive or a negative. All I am saying is that Rosen has a very real chance of not hitting it off with our coaches. Rosen also likes to speak his mind on topics both inside sports and outside of sports. I am not hear to agree or disagree with his comments. I am saying that there is a real chance that as a GM you might wake up one morning to see news about a controversial tweet my starting qb just made. It probably is not the end of the world but it can cause distractions (team and staff now spend time answering questions defending what Rosen said) and it could cause some division in the locker room. Rosen is opinionated and he likes to share his opinions. Nothing wrong with that but when you are the starting qb of a billion dollar team it may be better to have more of the milk toast responses you get from Brady, Mannings, Brees etc. Again this is not a huge concern to me. But like hand size, wonderlic scores and 40 times, everything is to be considered when picking a franchise qb.
jrober38 Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 2 hours ago, racketmaster said: The best player comparison for Josh Rosen is Eli Manning. We are just talking on field play here. Pro ready, plug and play type player. He will throw for a bunch of yards and touchdowns. Rosen Will also get sacked a lot and throw a bunch of picks. If you build a solid offensive line and very good defense you can win, maybe even a Super Bowl with some luck. If you have holes, your team will win 6-7 games. If we get Rosen, we are not getting one the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Why? Mobility. He lacks mobility but still has a gunslinger mentality and he has a propensity to stick throws in dangerous areas or up for grabs when pressured. The NFL game has changed and mobility is important. A qb does not have to have Tyrod Taylor like mobility but a player with at least Alex Smith/Aaron Rodgers is preferred. The ability to escape danger to make a play downfield is often needed. So, from a football perspective I have concerns about buying into a quarterback with limited mobility in a changing NFL. You may counter with, what about Brady. In order to think that will happen, i have to think that Rosen will develop into a precision passer who works the shorter routes. He would have to repress his gunslinger mentality, which is who Rosen is. This is unlikely to happen. And we have not talked about the possible character issues and more importantly the durability issues. Both of which Eli did not have and Rosen does. In the end, Rosen is a tough evaluation. His lack of mobility goes against a changing NFL game but he should still be pretty good like Eli, provided he stays healthy. I would not trade up for this type of player but I would take him if he fell to 12. Maybe move up to 10. Rosen, like Eli Manning, will not be able to carry a team and he will need as many good players around him to have success. We need those draft picks to turn into good players. What's the alternative?
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 I don't want Eli Manning. I want Josh Rosen.
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, MJS said: There are plenty of QB's in this league without mobility. One of them happens to be the best of all time and has won more Superbowls than anyone (Tom Brady). So stop. I don't think you understand what I was trying to lay out in the original post. 1. I never said being immobility leads to not being any good. I am looking at how the game is evolving and mobility does seem to be more of a desired trait. The speed of the game and defensive schemes make the off script plays that a Tony Romo or Aaron Rodgers make more important. They can turn bad plays (an offensive lineman getting beat or mssing an assignment) into good plays. So all things equal, I would prefer my qb to have a little more mobility. Hopefully, this is not too controversial. 2. Eli and Matt Ryan are solid franchise quarterbacks and there is nothing wrong with them. So if we were to draft Rosen at 12, I am happy with it. I also know that both those players need stron offensive lines, a good running game and often really talented wrs to be highly successful. Neither player is going to carry a team on their backs with limited talent around them. This again is not a problem because this is true for most qbs. Surround them with good talent and they will look better. The elite players like Farve, Elway, Rodgers can play with lesser talent and still have a good deal of success. I don't think this is too outrageous. 3. I have said Rosen is probably the most pro ready and plug and play qb in this draft. Again not that controversial and it is a positive attribute. 4. What I don't see for Rosen is a lot of upside. I think he is what you see similar to what you got at UCLA where he started right away and was good but never really made significant improvements. So I was mostly asking and cautioning, the most likely scenario is that you get Eli (on the field) when you draft Rosen. You take that if that is where the discussion ends. 5. But there happens to be more layers to the Rosen evaluation (character/durability). Those concerns lead me to be more cautious and more apt to see if he falls to 12. Again, I may be wrong but don't see this as overly controversial. To me you weigh the risks and rewards and taking him in the 10-12 range is where I see his value.
Where’sLloyd Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 I’m a Giants fan and while he can be boneheaded I have to laugh at having Eli as being a bad thing haha. If you think Ryan is the ceiling and Eli the floor then I will gladly take the 2 rings while you can enjoy all the regular season accolades then choke on the biggest stage. Eli is not Rosen. Eli is nothing if not durable and soft spoken. I like Rosen, but they are not similar. I also think the team that gets Rosen will be lucky.
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 17 minutes ago, jrober38 said: What's the alternative? 1. Darnold. He can be an elite player for a long time and I would be willing to part with significant assets to include next year's #1. He is a player that would have the Bills a playoff team even if the talent around him is sub par. And there is less character and durability concerns. 2. Take the qb who falls close to 12 (Mayfield, Allen or Rosen). 3. If you get beat to the punch, you take Rudolph at 22. I probably like Rudolph more than most but don't see him as much of a drop off from the other 3 and we keep our picks.
jrober38 Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, racketmaster said: 1. Darnold. He can be an elite player for a long time and I would be willing to part with significant assets to include next year's #1. He is a player that would have the Bills a playoff team even if the talent around him is sub par. And there is less character and durability concerns. 2. Take the qb who falls close to 12 (Mayfield, Allen or Rosen). 3. If you get beat to the punch, you take Rudolph at 22. I probably like Rudolph more than most but don't see him as much of a drop off from the other 3 and we keep our picks. I don't think any of these are realistic options. 1. Darnold is going top 3. 2. None of these guys are dropping to 12. 3. Rudolph isn't worth anything close to the 22nd overall pick.
formerlyofCtown Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 3 hours ago, racketmaster said: The best player comparison for Josh Rosen is Eli Manning. We are just talking on field play here. Pro ready, plug and play type player. He will throw for a bunch of yards and touchdowns. Rosen Will also get sacked a lot and throw a bunch of picks. If you build a solid offensive line and very good defense you can win, maybe even a Super Bowl with some luck. If you have holes, your team will win 6-7 games. If we get Rosen, we are not getting one the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Why? Mobility. He lacks mobility but still has a gunslinger mentality and he has a propensity to stick throws in dangerous areas or up for grabs when pressured. The NFL game has changed and mobility is important. A qb does not have to have Tyrod Taylor like mobility but a player with at least Alex Smith/Aaron Rodgers is preferred. The ability to escape danger to make a play downfield is often needed. So, from a football perspective I have concerns about buying into a quarterback with limited mobility in a changing NFL. You may counter with, what about Brady. In order to think that will happen, i have to think that Rosen will develop into a precision passer who works the shorter routes. He would have to repress his gunslinger mentality, which is who Rosen is. This is unlikely to happen. And we have not talked about the possible character issues and more importantly the durability issues. Both of which Eli did not have and Rosen does. In the end, Rosen is a tough evaluation. His lack of mobility goes against a changing NFL game but he should still be pretty good like Eli, provided he stays healthy. I would not trade up for this type of player but I would take him if he fell to 12. Maybe move up to 10. Rosen, like Eli Manning, will not be able to carry a team and he will need as many good players around him to have success. We need those draft picks to turn into good players. Maybe 2.
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I don't think any of these are realistic options. 1. Darnold is going top 3. 2. None of these guys are dropping to 12. 3. Rudolph isn't worth anything close to the 22nd overall pick. Disagree. 1. Everybody has a price so if you want Darnold bad enough it is a possibility. 2. Many mocks are showing Rosen falling to 12 or 15. At the very least, he is likely to slide out of the top 5. And now with the Allen tweets, he might be the qb to slide to 12. So this is a very realistic possibility. 3. You don't like Rudolph. I get it, he is an acquired taste. But he should be available at 22 and could be a nice option (slightly better than Andy Dalton).
jrober38 Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 1 minute ago, racketmaster said: Disagree. 1. Everybody has a price so if you want Darnold bad enough it is a possibility. 2. Many mocks are showing Rosen falling to 12 or 15. At the very least, he is likely to slide out of the top 5. And now with the Allen tweets, he might be the qb to slide to 12. So this is a very realistic possibility. 3. You don't like Rudolph. I get it, he is an acquired taste. But he should be available at 22 and could be a nice option (slightly better than Andy Dalton). 1. The compensation to move into the top 2 will be astronomical. 2. Allen stinks. Rosen falling would be ideal. 3. You see Dalton. I see Bryce Petty/Landry Jones. I see a spread offense QB who struggles badly against pressure and has a mediocre arm.
racketmaster Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 1 minute ago, jrober38 said: 1. The compensation to move into the top 2 will be astronomical. 2. Allen stinks. Rosen falling would be ideal. 3. You see Dalton. I see Bryce Petty/Landry Jones. I see a spread offense QB who struggles badly against pressure and has a mediocre arm. We are not going to agree but what is your ideal plan? Trade to #4 for Rosen? I'm not saying it is a terrible idea, but just asking since you don't like any of the plans I laid out and you must have a plan of your own.
jrober38 Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, racketmaster said: We are not going to agree but what is your ideal plan? Trade to #4 for Rosen? I'm not saying it is a terrible idea, but just asking since you don't like any of the plans I laid out and you must have a plan of your own. Rosen @ #4 makes sense. If we can't do that and Allen is the only alternative, I'd consider Lauletta in round 2 and keep both our 1st rounders.
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