Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 That 60 Minutes story on Theo Van Gogh? It's amazing that the Muslim psyche is so fragile that it is completely incapable of introspection and reform. The guy quoted verses of the Koran that legitimize brutalization of women to make his point. What was the cost of his speaking frankly about the true nature of Islam? He was shot repeatedly, hacked to bits and left to die on the street. If I was Dutch, I would seriously support the deportation of every Muslim in that country.
VABills Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 That 60 Minutes story on Theo Van Gogh? It's amazing that the Muslim psyche is so fragile that it is completely incapable of introspection and reform. The guy quoted verses of the Koran that legitimize brutalization of women to make his point. What was the cost of his speaking frankly about the true nature of Islam? He was shot repeatedly, hacked to bits and left to die on the street. If I was Dutch, I would seriously support the deportation of every Muslim in that country. 273611[/snapback] So because a group of "people" tried to kill this guy all people from that race should be punished. Gotcha. How about finding the people who did it, and punish them? I know novel idea, but you think that might work?
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 So because a group of "people" tried to kill this guy all people from that race should be punished. Gotcha. How about finding the people who did it, and punish them? I know novel idea, but you think that might work? 273618[/snapback] No. Here's the problem in Holland (and make note that it sounds quite familiar): They have a population of about 16 million. 1 million of that total are Muslims. The vast majority of that 1 million are unable or unwilling to speak Dutch. As a result, they segregate themselves into separate communities and get all of their media influence from the Arab satellite channels. And we all know what those channels push on their audiences, now don't we? So, let's say you go and arrest everyone who may have played a role in this murder. What do you think those poor "marginalized" Muslims would think? I'm quite certain the Arab TV channels would lead with stories of Mulsim repression. Then you have an even bigger problem. Also, the fact is that the Muslim community in Holland bore ZERO anger over this incident. None. Why is that? Well, it's likely because they CONDONED it. Thus, if I was Dutch, I'd want to see each and every Muslim immigrant sent back to where they came from.
VABills Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 No. Here's the problem in Holland (and make note that it sounds quite familiar): They have a population of about 16 million. 1 million of that total are Muslims. The vast majority of that 1 million are unable or unwilling to speak Dutch. As a result, they segregate themselves into separate communities and get all of their media influence from the Arab satellite channels. And we all know what those channels push on their audiences, now don't we? So, let's say you go and arrest everyone who may have played a role in this murder. What do you think those poor "marginalized" Muslims would think? I'm quite certain the Arab TV channels would lead with stories of Mulsim repression. Then you have an even bigger problem. Also, the fact is that the Muslim community in Holland bore ZERO anger over this incident. None. Why is that? Well, it's likely because they CONDONED it. Thus, if I was Dutch, I'd want to see each and every Muslim immigrant sent back to where they came from. 273623[/snapback] So just because they don't fit the Dutch or your way of thinking they should just ship them out, put them in concentration camps etc.... Do you think it's possible that they don't like the skewed media of the "white man"? Again if some act out over the arrests of the attempted murderers, then arrest them. Soon someone will figure out in the muslim community that it is not okay to act violently when people have a different view of the world then them. Punishing a group of people is not the right way for a smal group that is the real problem. Punish the right people and not someone because of the color of their skin or their language.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 So just because they don't fit the Dutch or your way of thinking they should just ship them out, put them in concentration camps etc.... Do you think it's possible that they don't like the skewed media of the "white man"? Again if some act out over the arrests of the attempted murderers, then arrest them. Soon someone will figure out in the muslim community that it is not okay to act violently when people have a different view of the world then them. Punishing a group of people is not the right way for a smal group that is the real problem. Punish the right people and not someone because of the color of their skin or their language. 273629[/snapback] No no no, I'm not talking about shipping them off to DEATH CAMPS, just back to their country of origin whether it's Morocco or Libya or wherever. I'm a firm believer that if someone comes to another country and expects their new country to adapt to THEM rather than vice-versa, they're simply there to make trouble. We have the same problem here, a sizeable minority (some legal and some not) that refuse to integrate into our society and speak our language, to adopt our way of doing things. Let's see if you can guess who I speak of. If the Muslim community in Holland was serious, they'd offer every single extremist among them up as a sign of cooperation and a desire to integrate into Dutch society. If they don't it's just another sign that they are tacitly approving such behavior.
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 If the Muslim community in Holland was serious, they'd offer every single extremist among them up as a sign of cooperation and a desire to integrate into Dutch society. If they don't it's just another sign that they are tacitly approving such behavior. 273633[/snapback] Sorry Joe, but I do not buy it. Just because they are not offering up the extremists, does not mean that they condone the behavior. Take a look at the inner cities of our country. Are you saying that every person who does not turn in a drug dealer/pimp/murderer/etc actually condones that behavior? Could it be that they are scared of the repercussions of turning them in?
slothrop Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 I will always remember a quote of a great philosopher: "Fear is always the path to the Dark Side." - Yoda Fear of others has always been a cause of historic tragedies. Your zenophoboc fear of muslims (or arabs) can be very dangerous.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 Sorry Joe, but I do not buy it. Just because they are not offering up the extremists, does not mean that they condone the behavior. Take a look at the inner cities of our country. Are you saying that every person who does not turn in a drug dealer/pimp/murderer/etc actually condones that behavior? Could it be that they are scared of the repercussions of turning them in? 273636[/snapback] Then either way I am correct. Muslim society, no matter where it is, breeds backward thinking and violence toward women. Let me put it to you this way: if a drug dealer/pimp/criminal type was in MY neighborhood, you'd better believe I'd call the cops. Why? Because I don't want my neighborhood going to sh--. Remaining silent is equivalent to tacit support for this kind of terrorist activity. The Dutch have long had a tradition of open and free speech no matter the subject. What kind of chilling effect does this massive presence of muslims have on such a society? Should ordinary Dutch people have to live in fear of brutal murder just because they find Islam particularly odious? I sure hope not. No one in a civilized nation should fear the actions of a violent and indignant minority.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 Your zenophoboc fear of muslims (or arabs) can be very dangerous. 273645[/snapback] No more so than turning a blind eye to the evils of islam and Arab society is. You can pretend it's a religion of peace all you want. All I know is there is no verse in the Bible that espouses rape. There is one in the Koran.
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 Remaining silent is equivalent to tacit support for this kind of terrorist activity. 273706[/snapback] ...or remaining silent means that you and your family are not going to be slaughtered because you spoke up against the violent minority. I am the type that would stand up too, but that does not mean that the people who do not stand up support the actions of the violent minority. They are just scared for their safety and the safety of their family. I am sorry that you ignore these people in your "argument."
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 ...or remaining silent means that you and your family are not going to be slaughtered because you spoke up against the violent minority. I am the type that would stand up too, but that does not mean that the people who do not stand up support the actions of the violent minority. They are just scared for their safety and the safety of their family. I am sorry that you ignore these people in your "argument." 273718[/snapback] So then, the rest of Dutch society should accept the situation that breeds these terrorists? Sounds like the path of balkanization if you ask me. One of the reasons our country has been so successful in the past was the fact that immigrants were absorbed. This simply is not happening in the Netherlands.
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 So then, the rest of Dutch society should accept the situation that breeds these terrorists? Sounds like the path of balkanization if you ask me. 273725[/snapback] It is impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who only sees things in black and white. Have a nice day.
Bill from NYC Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 Does anybody get the feeling that somewhere in Albany, a PPP poster is sitting there NOT caring, because this is a tough one to pin on George Bush?
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 It is impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who only sees things in black and white. Have a nice day. 273732[/snapback] So you're dismissing the possibility that Dutch Society (or other parts of Europe with high %'s of Muslim immigration, like France) could some day be 'balkanized'? It's hard to have a discussion with someone who only wants to wear rose-colored glasses too. Nothing happens overnight. If Dutch society does someday become 'balkanized' (perhaps a 100 years from now), it will be because for years people yelled down opposing viewpoints for not being 'rational'.
Britbillsfan Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 No. Here's the problem in Holland (and make note that it sounds quite familiar): They have a population of about 16 million. 1 million of that total are Muslims. The vast majority of that 1 million are unable or unwilling to speak Dutch. As a result, they segregate themselves into separate communities and get all of their media influence from the Arab satellite channels. And we all know what those channels push on their audiences, now don't we? So, let's say you go and arrest everyone who may have played a role in this murder. What do you think those poor "marginalized" Muslims would think? I'm quite certain the Arab TV channels would lead with stories of Mulsim repression. Then you have an even bigger problem. Also, the fact is that the Muslim community in Holland bore ZERO anger over this incident. None. Why is that? Well, it's likely because they CONDONED it. Thus, if I was Dutch, I'd want to see each and every Muslim immigrant sent back to where they came from. 273623[/snapback] Good old Xenophobia A fair number of Dutch muslims do not even speak Arabic, being of Turkish and Indonesian descent, indeed the Indonesians do largely speak Dutch because of the old colonial ties there. There is no great fundamentalist streak in either of those groups. There is a Morrocan community also, from which the murderer of Van Gogh & his gang of thugs came from. Morrocan militancy has been around for a while and has been responsible for a fair number of deaths within Morrocco (largely of Morrocans, but hey, they probably condone the militants killing Morrocans because they are dumb Arabs.... ). There was anger and protests over Theo Van Gogh's death amongst the Islamic community, and it was reported at the time. Saying there was zero anger is a falsehood, and then to extrapolate that the community condoned the killing from that falsehood is even worse. It is true that amongst fundametalist Moslems there would have been those who condoned the killing, but that is different from saying the entire community condoned it.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 It is impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who only sees things in black and white. Have a nice day. 273732[/snapback] Well, that was pleasant. May your day be filled with good coffee and lovely ladies.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 There was anger and protests over Theo Van Gogh's death amongst the Islamic community, and it was reported at the time. Saying there was zero anger is a falsehood, and then to extrapolate that the community condoned the killing from that falsehood is even worse. It is true that amongst fundametalist Moslems there would have been those who condoned the killing, but that is different from saying the entire community condoned it. 273758[/snapback] Well, if there were, 60 Minutes sure missed out on them. The question remains: A MP in Holland has to live under 24-hour guard because she speaks out against evils in Islamic religion. I ask the questiona gain: why should someone have to live in fear because they question a religion...especially in a secular Europe? My whole issue with allowing Islam to persist in open western societies is that Islam itself seems to be dead set against many principles of western-style democracy. How can you reconcile both? It is my opinion that the followers of this religion should conform to their surroundings or be asked to leave. You cannot allow a minority to assault the basic principles of a government, especially when their ideas are the antithesis of freedom.
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 So you're dismissing the possibility that Dutch Society (or other parts of Europe with high %'s of Muslim immigration, like France) could some day be 'balkanized'? It's hard to have a discussion with someone who only wants to wear rose-colored glasses too. 273746[/snapback] I am not dismissing it. I am dismissing the "all or nothing" approach that JSP is taking. The world contains shades of gray. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand or how that indicates wearing rose-colored glasses.
VABills Posted March 14, 2005 Posted March 14, 2005 Well, if there were, 60 Minutes sure missed out on them. 273764[/snapback] Isn't 60 minutes the same group that had Bush's records from 1967 made up on a 2005 version of Office XP? Geez you think they missed something?
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Author Posted March 14, 2005 Isn't 60 minutes the same group that had Bush's records from 1967 made up on a 2005 version of Office XP? Geez you think they missed something? 273772[/snapback] Thankfully, Dan "I'd" Rather "Not" was not doing this story. Still, I do remember when this incident happened, and I cannot recall any major protests in the muslim community, well, anywhere over this killing.
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