Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Jackson is most definitely a running QB. He is not merely a mobile passer. And yeah, NFL players all played in college, but only the best of the best make the NFL. It's a completely different level and you know it. Much faster and harder hitting. Toss Mariota on my list as well. Dinged up a lot already. Sure, it's not a perfect science, but I see a greater risk in Jackson and his build than any of the pocket guys. JMO, and my reasoning. You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 Just now, the skycap said: You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down. No, he wasn't.
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: His career attempts divided by his career games played. If you want it by year is was 13.6 in '15, 20 in '16, and 17.8 in '17. Designed run attempts or because of breakdown of his porous line?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Sure, it's not a perfect science, but I see a greater risk in Jackson and his build than any of the pocket guys. JMO, and my reasoning. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Is it "QB who are in the pocket are 'protected' while QB who run leave the pocket and get slammed'? The thing is, even pocket QB leave the pocket (roll out) or, out of competitiveness, run when they get the chance. When they do, some of them slide well (Cousins has a pretty slide, so does Wilson). Some of them don't slide, or suck at sliding - one QB was described as "starting his slide like a dog squatting to take a crap on your lawn". If QB in a close game and they don't run to move the chains when they could, or they slide instead of going for the 1st down, we're on them like flies on sh** (Orton). If they do run, they're (IMO) more likely to get hurt than a QB who can really run as long as you can persuade him not to hurdle people or put his shoulder down. I mean if you think about it logically, running backs aren't hurt proportionately given how often they run. It matters if you know how to take a hit, if you're prepared to take a hit, or if running is something you don't do naturally or regularly. Anyway, I understand your reasoning I'm just not sure actual QB injuries bear it out.
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: No, he wasn't. Petrino and his QB coach said that was part of his maturation process, but you know better I do.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, the skycap said: Designed run attempts or because of breakdown of his porous line? Honestly, it doesn't matter. If his habit is to run when things break down it is a bad habit at the next level. 2 minutes ago, the skycap said: Petrino and his QB coach said that was part of his maturation process, but you know better I do. His coaches are trying to get him drafted higher? Color me surprised. Across all of his college years he never ran the ball on fewer than 35% of his total attempts. That's a running QB.
JohnC Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: No, he wasn't. The OC in the pros is not going to call the same game for him as was called in college. Because he is such a marvelous athlete he is going to be elusive, as was Taylor, and avoid some hits. What Jackson can do is extend the play and throw it downfield to the receivers. Your concern about Lamar's durability because of his (current) thin frame is merited. But the same durability issue can be directed toward Rosen who is less elusive and has a history of injuries. Jackson is not my preferred qb from this draft class. But I am becoming more comfortable with taking him at our draft position and reap the benefit of keeping our picks. Edited April 23, 2018 by JohnC
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JohnC said: The OC in the pros is not going to call the same game for him as was called in college. Because he is such a marvelous athlete he is going to be elusive, as was Taylor, and avoid some hits. What Jackson can do is extend the play and throw it downfield to the receivers. Your concern about Lamar's durability because of his (current) thin frame is merited. But the same durability issue can be directed toward Rosen who is less elusive and has a history of injuries. Jackson is not my preferred qb from this draft class. But I am becoming more comfortable with taking him as our draft position and reap the benefit of keeping our picks. That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. It's also a habit that is very difficult to break. Edited April 23, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13
JohnC Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. I don't see Lamar playing right away unless on a situational basis. That's where coaching and receptiveness to coaching comes in. From what I have read about him he is a worker and diligently prepares. As with every qb the smart organizations design offenses to take advantage of their assets. My concern isn't so much about his running as it is being smart about it. I'm more confident about his ability to adjust to the pro game than you are. Are there risks associated with his style of play? Of course. But there is a different yet corresponding risk for a more stationary qb such as Rosen. I'm not saying Lamar is a better prospect than Rosen because I don't believe that is the case. But every qb has to adjust their game to survive the more physical and punishing pro game. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, the skycap said: You guys are looking at his first 2 years in college. If you study last season he was less likely to run. He was able to go through progressions and throw the ball unless his line broke down. I don't think that's accurate, Skycap. Guy had 163 runs Freshman year, 260 runs Sophomore year and 232 runs Junior year. He ran - a Lot. And a lot of it was part of the game plan - I think someone said 70% of Jackson's runs were designed runs for him. OTOH, I think I understand what you're trying to say and I see it too. When he's supposed to pass, he moves to maneuver clear of pressure, make his progressions, and pass. I think the problem is the term "running QB" . Its usual meaning is a QB who makes one read, and if it isn't there and there's pressure, bails out of the pocket and makes yards with his legs. Tyrod Taylor in college would be an example. The Lamar Jackson paradox is that he was an explosive and very productive runner, who was also very productive as a passer on a comparable level to top pocket QB. The term "running QB" doesn't adequately describe his passing abilities, but for people who worry that running QB in the NFL are more likely to get killed, you can't get away from the fact that the guy ran in college - a lot. 13 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. There, I think, your concern is misplaced. Skycap has a point that last year, Jackson made big strides towards staying with the pass play and going through progressions. Petrino has said they worked hard on that last off-season - that he would whistle plays dead in practice whenever Jackson would take off, to make the point if it was a pass play, he wanted Jackson to pass. The results could be seen on the field. I guess I'm saying I think both of you are right? Jackson runs a lot, and that didn't decrease much (maybe 2-3 run attempts per game less), but a number of respected evaluators commented that they could see big strides in his game as far as going through progressions and moving to get away from pressure/reset/throw vs just taking off. 1
DrDawkinstein Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 For what it's worth: Tyrod and Russell Wilson both average about 100 Rushing Attempts per season. Cam Newton averages around 110-120. Jared Goff averages around 30, Mariota and Winston around 50, Rothlisberger around 30, Aaron Rodgers around 50 rushing attempts per season. Whether they are designed run plays or scrambles after a broken play, I expect Jackson will be up in the 100+ rushing attempt group than the 30-50 attempts we see from passers. That is a lot more opportunity for injury, imo.
Solomon Grundy Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Here's Thor Nystrom take on this from ESPN Rochester comes on around 23 minute mark https://t.co/eeJDU3TSD9?amp=1 Edited April 23, 2018 by the skycap
HOUSE Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 Johnny Football is out there.... Can't be worse then Taylor......
KOKBILLS Posted April 24, 2018 Posted April 24, 2018 7 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: That is not my concern whatsoever with Jackson. My concern is that his instinct is to tuck and run because he's used to being the best athlete on the field by a wide margin. That is a habit that very rarely leads to success in the NFL. It's also a habit that is very difficult to break. No offense, but that is a false narrative...73% of his rushing yards in College came on designed runs...27% on scrambles...He's become a MUCH more disciplined pocket passer, using that incredible athletic ability to slide and deliver rather than just take off at the 1st sign of pressure...He wants to stay in the pocket and throw...No doubt Petrino was able to convince him that was the way he would get Drafted in the 1st...and it worked... https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-the-case-to-build-an-nfl-offense-around-lamar-jackson 1
17 Josh Allen Posted April 24, 2018 Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) I read this some where. Patrino wanted to use him as a weapon. So he had lots of planned run plays just for him. This has nothing to do with him being a running QB. He is trained to always pass first. Then after his progressions are done and there is room to run he will do it. Many videos on youtube showing this. How is that any different then Cam Newton or Elway or Rogers. Jackson is a passer and he has the stats to prove it. Also he is as good a passer as Darnold or Mayfield. The Dude can flat out play. I’m think this guy is going to be great. I’m all in on the Bills drafting him. He is a weapon and it will be difficult to contain him. This guy is a better runner then Barkley and his stats back it up. How would you like to have a QB that is a better runner then Barkley and pretty much as good a passer as anyone in this draft. I do not want to face this guy twice a year. If the Dolphins or Pats get him there will be hell to pay. Edited April 24, 2018 by Thurmanator 12074 2
Recommended Posts