BuffaloRush Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 Just now, Gugny said: How about determining who drafted the most players who are still on NFL rosters 5 years after being drafted? The Pro Bowl is a joke. Being named to the 1st or 2nd Team Pro Biwl is not a joke. Pro Bowl alternates can be. The Pro Bow game itself is a joke. If the designation is such a joke, then why are Pro Bowl appearnces counted? Why are players getting bonus and contract extensions for making the Pro Bowl? It’s still considered an honor in the NFL 3 minutes ago, Gugny said: How about determining who drafted the most players who are still on NFL rosters 5 years after being drafted? The Pro Bowl is a joke. Because that a hollow stat that really doesn’t mean anything. How long was Todd Collins in the NFL as a 3rd string QB? That’s hardly an indicator of a successful draft pick.
Gugny Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: Being named to the 1st or 2nd Team Pro Biwl is not a joke. Pro Bowl alternates can be. The Pro Bow game itself is a joke. If the designation is such a joke, then why are Pro Bowl appearnces counted? Why are players getting bonus and contract extensions for making the Pro Bowl? It’s still considered an honor in the NFL Because that a hollow stat that really doesn’t mean anything. How long was Todd Collins in the NFL as a 3rd string QB? That’s hardly an indicator of a successful draft pick. Because it's popularity and popularity sells tickets and merchandise. It's only an honor because it lines everyone's pockets. It has VERY little to do with actual talent.
BuffaloRush Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 Just now, Gugny said: Because it's popularity and popularity sells tickets and merchandise. It's only an honor because it lines everyone's pockets. It has VERY little to do with actual talent. And staying in the league as a 3rd string prospect after 5 years does? That makes no sense
Gugny Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: Because that a hollow stat that really doesn’t mean anything. How long was Todd Collins in the NFL as a 3rd string QB? That’s hardly an indicator of a successful draft pick. So you consider Bob Griffin or Tim "Pro Life" Tebow good draft picks because they were starters? Or Vince Young??? Longevity defines the quality of the pick. EJ Manuel was a better pick than Bob Griffin or Tim Tebow because he's never been unemployed since he was drafted.
Mango Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: Being named to the 1st or 2nd Team Pro Biwl is not a joke. Pro Bowl alternates can be. The Pro Bow game itself is a joke. If the designation is such a joke, then why are Pro Bowl appearnces counted? Why are players getting bonus and contract extensions for making the Pro Bowl? It’s still considered an honor in the NFL Because that a hollow stat that really doesn’t mean anything. How long was Todd Collins in the NFL as a 3rd string QB? That’s hardly an indicator of a successful draft pick. There is probably something to the idea of averaging career length out among draft picks. Then trades count as years with team. So for the current regime Beane would get 0 or -1 for Darby but +2 for Benjamin. Not a terrible idea for weighing transactions as a whole for GM’s.
BuffaloRush Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Gugny said: So you consider Bob Griffin or Tim "Pro Life" Tebow good draft picks because they were starters? Or Vince Young??? Longevity defines the quality of the pick. EJ Manuel was a better pick than Bob Griffin or Tim Tebow because he's never been unemployed since he was drafted. Longevity on its own does not define success. There’s many examples of players who have hung around in the league as backups. It doesn’t make them good picks. If your first round OT end up as a career backup for 7 seasons how does that it make it a successful pick? But again it goes back to it being impossible to define what constitutes a “successful” draft pick. Edited April 20, 2018 by BuffaloRush
Gugny Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloRush said: And staying in the league as a 3rd string prospect after 5 years does? That makes no sense If Dak Prescott were to be done after this year's preseason, who would have had the more successful career .... Dak? Or Alex Van Pelt?
BuffaloRush Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mango said: There is probably something to the idea of averaging career length out among draft picks. Then trades count as years with team. So for the current regime Beane would get 0 or -1 for Darby but +2 for Benjamin. Not a terrible idea for weighing transactions as a whole for GM’s. So by definition EJ Manual is a good draft pick as a first round pick? No, I can’t get behind that 1 minute ago, Gugny said: If Dak Prescott were to be done after this year's preseason, who would have had the more successful career .... Dak? Or Alex Van Pelt? Prescott
Mango Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: So by definition EJ Manual is a good draft pick as a first round pick? No, I can’t get behind that Prescott It’s a bit of an anomoly, but for the purposes of trying to provide “data” or quantifying things, it would average out. The EJ pick specifically. The Bills traded down, got Kiko, and got maybe the 2nd best QB in the draft. Breaking it down that way, I don’t hate it. Bummer he wasn’t good enough, but it wasn’t the worst thing to ever happen.
Gugny Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: So by definition EJ Manual is a good draft pick as a first round pick? No, I can’t get behind that Prescott EJ has remained gainfully employed as an NFL QB for going on 6 years. And Van Pelt was an NFL QB for 9 years, while Griffin crapped out after 4. No one even wanted Griffin as a backup last year. So yes .... EJ was a better pick. Does that mean he was a good 1st rounder? NO. But he was a better first rounder than Bob Griffin.
BuffaloRush Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mango said: It’s a bit of an anomoly, but for the purposes of trying to provide “data” or quantifying things, it would average out. The EJ pick specifically. The Bills traded down, got Kiko, and got maybe the 2nd best QB in the draft. Breaking it down that way, I don’t hate it. Bummer he wasn’t good enough, but it wasn’t the worst thing to ever happen. So you are arguing bag drafting EJ Manuel as a 1st round draft pick was a good selection? Come on man. He was ranked as a prospect in the 3rd or 4th round. In my opinion, that’s not how you evaluate the success of a selection 2 minutes ago, Gugny said: EJ has remained gainfully employed as an NFL QB for going on 6 years. And Van Pelt was an NFL QB for 9 years, while Griffin crapped out after 4. No one even wanted Griffin as a backup last year. So yes .... EJ was a better pick. Does that mean he was a good 1st rounder? NO. But he was a better first rounder than Bob Griffin. Sorry but in my opinion, your “longetivity” argument is irrelevant. I guess that Steve DeBerg is a Hall of Fame QB in your book. On his HOF it will read “gainfully employed for 21 seasons.” In certain situations your longetivity argument can be a good indicator, but there’s far too much context within the years played in the league. To say that a player who plays 5+ years in the NFL alone should be considered a success is laughable. I don’t agree that. a QB drafted in mid-first round is successful if they are a career backup. What you did highlight is why it is so hard to “hit” in the NFL draft on players. Injuries, scheme, and a number of different contribute to how successful players are in the NFL.
Augie Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 31 minutes ago, Gugny said: How about determining who drafted the most players who are still on NFL rosters 5 years after being drafted? The Pro Bowl is a joke. Yep, there are multiple ways of measuring “success”, and the more data you look at, the clearer the picture becomes.
first_and_ten Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 This rating system is flawed. A good GM is not determined by the amount of pro bowl players that are drafted. It's the quality of the team he has assembled. Pro bowlers are important , yes, but great teams are built on players who have been acquired also by trade and other means.
Gugny Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: So you are arguing bag drafting EJ Manuel as a 1st round draft pick was a good selection? Come on man. He was ranked as a prospect in the 3rd or 4th round. In my opinion, that’s not how you evaluate the success of a selection Is this really how you interpreted what I wrote? Really?
first_and_ten Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Gugny said: Is this really how you interpreted what I wrote? Really? Who's Bob Griffin?
metzelaars_lives Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said: Pro Bowl is nothing more than a popularity contest. This means nothing That's easy to say (and so cliche at this point) but it's as good a barometer as any. If a guy's good, he's gonna find a way to a Pro Bowl. 55 minutes ago, Gugny said: EJ has remained gainfully employed as an NFL QB for going on 6 years. And Van Pelt was an NFL QB for 9 years, while Griffin crapped out after 4. No one even wanted Griffin as a backup last year. So yes .... EJ was a better pick. Does that mean he was a good 1st rounder? NO. But he was a better first rounder than Bob Griffin. It's been so long, I can't even remember if you were pro or anti-EJ that summer of 2015 when a dozen or so of us spent way too much time on here arguing about the guy. I think you were with me on the anti-EJ train but then we became opponents as I was pro-Taylor and you were anti-Taylor. Do I have that right?
Jay_Fixit Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: Let's see who's right.... Based on your history of not knowing what a hit or miss is, I bet you’re not the one who’s right. 1 1
Mango Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: So you are arguing bag drafting EJ Manuel as a 1st round draft pick was a good selection? Come on man. He was ranked as a prospect in the 3rd or 4th round. In my opinion, that’s not how you evaluate the success of a selection I didn't say that even a little, Jesus. I think that over the course of a GM's history, in regards to the proposed, it would average out over picks, trades, and FA. In regards to EJ specifically. Again I didn't say that. Ugh. Should we have gone with a different position in hindsight, absolutely. My point is, as of 2018, EJ is probably either the best or second best QB in the class currently. The team traded down, got an extra pick, and got one of the best QB's/most important positions in football, that the draft had to offer. EJ was not good, but if any FO does that regularly, they will win more than they lose. You are taking what I said way too far. It is trash like this that makes your threads the worst. I tried to engage reasonably with this one too, and ask what the data meant, and that was your response. FML
MJS Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 The pro bowl certainly is a popularity contest. Which players are popular? Oh right, the most talented ones. The ones who put up the numbers. The ones who have good seasons and people follow because they are impressed with them. Do they get it wrong sometimes? Sure. But MOST of the time the guys who make the pro bowl (not alternates) had great seasons and deserve to be there.
ALF Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 Thanks for your research , interesting. HOF players are not a popularity contest, they are the real deal. How a team plays together like the SB years Bills with good coaching is very important. A good QB makes others look better.
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