Love that it appears we have a strategy...

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, Hebert19 said:

After a few years of Whaley...i gotta admit it finally feels like we have a plan. 

 

The maneuvering of the salary cap and dead cap.  The accumulation of draft picks and now even the pre draft visits seem structured.  

 

We have a plan (likely to trade up) but if that doesn't work we have the back up plan  (roquan Smith, Rudolph, first round WRs etc)...if we don't find a partner for trade up or price is too high we flip the switch and go a different direction.  

 

So refreshing.   

 

Whaley had a plan.  I think what you're seeing is the GM and head coach on the same page and getting along.  That, to me, is the difference.  Whaley seemed to always be at odds with the coaching staff.

[Putin]

1 hour ago, Hebert19 said:

After a few years of Whaley...i gotta admit it finally feels like we have a plan. 

 

The maneuvering of the salary cap and dead cap.  The accumulation of draft picks and now even the pre draft visits seem structured.  

 

We have a plan (likely to trade up) but if that doesn't work we have the back up plan  (roquan Smith, Rudolph, first round WRs etc)...if we don't find a partner for trade up or price is too high we flip the switch and go a different direction.  

 

So refreshing.   

I’m confused between all different directions 

[BillsfanAZ]

16 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

What McBeane and McDermott do at quarterback is pretty much going to define the rest of their careers. I think they have to take the surest thing in the draft with true upside...Darnold or Rosen. Anything short of that is a huge failure to me. 

 

I understand why people like Allen. He has huge upside, but not sure they will want to risk it. 

I understand why people love Mayfield, but not sure they will want to put their careers on the line with shorter guy who has off the field things. 

I understand why people like Jackson, as he also has a huge upside, but needs a ton of work. Not sure they stake their careers on that. 

I don't understand why people like Rudolph. He has limited athletic ability and needs a ton of work.  McBeane are not putting their entire careers on the line with this guy on a huge reach. 

 

After Darnold and Rosen I think they might take a shot on Allen. As Geg Cosell has said, if you fail taking a shot on Allen it isn't as bad as failing and taking a shot on some of these other guys. I still think they get into the top 2 with Rosen probably the target. 

 

So if the Bills cant get a deal done to move up to get Darnold or Rosen then they failed? That makes no sense. IF the Giants are interested in a QB, why would they trade out of that spot? Especially if the 2019 draft class does not look good for QB's. I think Beane already knows he will have to pay a premium to be able to take one of the top QB's. There is such a thing as too high of a price tag. If the Bills stay at 12, I dont think it will be due to a lack of trying to move up. 

[ddaryl]

36 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

Part of the job of a good GM is to successfully SELL his vision and his plan so that he can have the confidence of ownership to run the ship and put in place his guys.  Whaley, clearly did not do that.

 

what does that have to do with Pegulas going over Whaleys head and hiring Rex when Whaley had personel for St. Doug

 

 

The GM is supposed to hire the coach. The Pegula's fell in love with Rex and Whaley was a lame duck GM at that point

 

 

In regards to the comment yuo made I don't thnk Whaley was given much of a shot to bring in his own coach etc... Maybe it was a vision thing, but IMO Rex was a Pegula mistake

[Kirby Jackson]

16 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

I'm not basing what I'm saying in hindsight, I'm basing it off of the the sort of moves he made and the lack of clarity of any sort of a vision that was ever shared with us.  Not to mention that he wasn't able to sell himself to the Pegula's to be able to run the ship as a GM should be able to.   Look at what Whaley did to the salary cap.  We lead the league in dead cap money, whose fault was that?   You say he "just missed on EJ".   ummm, that's not all he missed on, the Sammy trading of an additional first rounder was an epic failure.  It's one of the worst moves that this organization has made in the past decade.  That from my view is indisputable and totally set this franchise back. What about the Dareus signing?  Sure you can say that Dareus was playing good ball at the time and that was right around the going rate for elite DT free agents.  But there were red flags with Dareus and the bottom line is that it ended up being a bad signing.  Way overpaid, the guy is one strike away from being out of the league for a very long time and frankly that decision is still negatively impacting this football team. 

 

You say hindsight, I say it's what I've been able to observe.  

 

 

You lead the league in dead cap money when you trade and release guys. That’s not a function of screwing up the cap. It is a function of going in a different direction. They traded Sammy, Darby, Glenn, Dareus, etc... Those guys aren’t bad players!! That is where the dead money comes in.

 

Again, you are proving my point. They did have a plan (one that you didn’t like). They thought that they were close, so they paid and invested draft picks in elite young talents. It didn’t work but that doesn’t mean that it was not thought through.

 

Beane has a plan as well. It may or may not work. So far, he has done the same thing that Murray did when he got the Sabres. Everyone talked about how refreshing it was and yada, yada, yada. It failed MISERABLY. Now, I believe Beane to be WAY smarter than Murray. I’m confident in McDermott but Beane hasn’t earned that trust yet. A lot of people are singing his praises and he really hasn’t done anything yet. If he gets the QB right we will be off and running. If they miss on that guy you have a team with minimal talent and no QB.

 

I am not trying to be negative at all. I’m just saying people need to slow down on the praise for Beane. McDermott has earned our trust but Beane hasn’t yet. If his plan works, great. FWIW, I really like the way that he has targeted this QB class to get his guy. He was smart to load up the assets. He better get it right though.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[Jauronimo]

44 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I always find it funny that people assume that there wasn’t a plan before. They were just spitting in the wind. That’s just ridiculous. You may not have liked the plan but obviously there was a strategy in place. 

I can't count the number of times I've seen peeps here rejoicing that there is a plan now.  What the plan is and whether its a good one are tertiary concerns.  The only thing that matters is public claims that a plan indeed exists.  Maybe a few promises that the plan is really good, or its the best plan, and you might get sick of winning, that's how good the plan is! 

 

I guess if Whaley had referred to whatever he was doing as a "process" or "vision" or "plan" Bills fans might remember him more fondly.  I'm seriously considering starting a cult. 

[ddaryl]

42 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

How many of Whaleys draft picks remain on the roster?

 

 

Not many.. We switched coaches 3 x's before Whaley was let go and each coach had very different needs for personnel.

 

Some of the picks that were let go after Whaley was fired had plenty of Bills fans upset because they let them go.

 

New GM new vision etc....

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by ddaryl

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

25 minutes ago, muppy said:

 AKA NO LEAKS Hmmmmmmm......I think Brandon has been muzzled and these guys aren't giving up Nada to the enemy..... That's refreshing too.  Muppy~

yeahhhh rawrrrrr~~~

It was never Brandon, it was Whaley who was the mole. He never got to pick his HC and was not given the same power over everything that other GM's are given. I'm 99.9% sure it was Whaley, as soon as he left everything was quiet.

[Putin]

2 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

So if the Bills cant get a deal done to move up to get Darnold or Rosen then they failed? That makes no sense. IF the Giants are interested in a QB, why would they trade out of that spot? Especially if the 2019 draft class does not look good for QB's. I think Beane already knows he will have to pay a premium to be able to take one of the top QB's. There is such a thing as too high of a price tag. If the Bills stay at 12, I dont think it will be due to a lack of trying to move up. 

So it’s basically if Beane is unable to move the Giants out of the 2nd he’s a HUGE failure as GM !!! 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Not many.. We switched coaches 3 x's before Whaley was let go and each coach had very different needs for personnel.

 

Some of the picks that were let go after Whaley was fired had plenty of Bills fans upset because they let them go.

 

New GM new vision etc....

 

 

 

 

And that's just Head Coaches! I believe he had a different DC almost every year he was GM. And they were all major changes (from Pettine's 3/4 hybrid, to Schwartz's 4/3 Wide-9, back to Rex's 3/4 hybrid man coverage, then to McD's 4/3 Tampa 2 zone)

 

Forget how many are still on our roster. Look at how many "Whaley guys" were in the playoffs last year: a ton.

[section122]

31 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

What McBeane and McDermott do at quarterback is pretty much going to define the rest of their careers. I think they have to take the surest thing in the draft with true upside...Darnold or Rosen. Anything short of that is a huge failure to me. 

 

I understand why people like Allen. He has huge upside, but not sure they will want to risk it. 

I understand why people love Mayfield, but not sure they will want to put their careers on the line with shorter guy who has off the field things. 

I understand why people like Jackson, as he also has a huge upside, but needs a ton of work. Not sure they stake their careers on that. 

I don't understand why people like Rudolph. He has limited athletic ability and needs a ton of work.  McBeane are not putting their entire careers on the line with this guy on a huge reach. 

 

After Darnold and Rosen I think they might take a shot on Allen. As Geg Cosell has said, if you fail taking a shot on Allen it isn't as bad as failing and taking a shot on some of these other guys. I still think they get into the top 2 with Rosen probably the target. 

 

 

A post like this reveals your bias though.  I can play the game with the 2 guys you like:

 

I understand why people like Rosen, he has a lot of pure passing ability but there are concerns about his commitment to the game

I understand why people like Darnold, he looks the part but there are a lot of concerns about his ball security.

 

So it can be a "huge failure" to you but if they get the guy they wanted it doesn't have to be an overall failure.  I thought they threw in the towel trading Sammy, I hated the the Dareus trade, I thought he should have gone for it on 4th down against the Colts.  All that said, the Bills made the playoffs and I am fully on board with the process.  I don't like Allen.  He screams Blaine Gabbert to me in that he has no business being discussed in the top half of the first round but there he sits.  If the Bills draft him I'll hope like hell it works.  Whomever the team drafts I'll anxiously await Astro notes to see if I need to be nervous.  These guys (at least for me) have earned some rope.  As long as they take a shot, even if it is a guy I don't like, I'll play the wait and see game.

 

btw I'm not without bias myself.  Rosen/Mayfield in a Bills uniform and I'm pumped. 

[Logic]

I liked Whaley when he was here and rooted for him to succeed.

That being said, he went all-in on maxing out the roster -- which I can't necessarily blame him for -- and it wound up putting the Bills in a bad place with the salary cap. It's as if he sacrificed any semblance of long term vision in the name of immediate success. Again, with the Bills still struggling under the weight of The Drought during his tenure, I don't blame him all that much for trying to end it once and for all. But again, the Bills were not in a good place long term.

Beane and McDermott, on the other hand, seem to be able to plan for the future and enact a long term plan WHILE keeping the roster competitive in the present. That bodes well for the Bills. I'm optimistic about the future of this team under the leadership of these men.

Oh, and by the way...you know who reminds me a lot of Doug Whaley? Rams GM Les Snead. Never met a trade or splashy move he didn't like. Collects talent rather than building a TEAM. All in on immediate success at the probable expense of long term success. I'm glad we don't have that kind of guy at the helm any more. I'll take Beane over Snead all day.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Logic

[NastyNateSoldiers]

56 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I always find it funny that people assume that there wasn’t a plan before. They were just spitting in the wind. That’s just ridiculous. You may not have liked the plan but obviously there was a strategy in place. 

The hiring of Rex killed Whaley. Whaley will get a 2nd chance like Rick Speilman and he'll do a great job with his new team.  

[DrDawkinstein]

15 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

So if the Bills cant get a deal done to move up to get Darnold or Rosen then they failed? That makes no sense. IF the Giants are interested in a QB, why would they trade out of that spot? Especially if the 2019 draft class does not look good for QB's. I think Beane already knows he will have to pay a premium to be able to take one of the top QB's. There is such a thing as too high of a price tag. If the Bills stay at 12, I dont think it will be due to a lack of trying to move up. 

 

In some aspects, unfortunately, yes it's a failure. It may not be all their fault, but the plan that was started last April will have failed. And someone has to be accountable for that.

 

We started down this path a long time ago. Many moves have been made to ship talent out and acquire assets to move around in this draft. If we can't get a top tier QB, the plan failed.

 

Just like it was on Whaley for never finding us a QB, even though we were never in a position to get one.

[MrEpsYtown]

13 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

A post like this reveals your bias though.  I can play the game with the 2 guys you like:

 

I understand why people like Rosen, he has a lot of pure passing ability but there are concerns about his commitment to the game

I understand why people like Darnold, he looks the part but there are a lot of concerns about his ball security.

 

So it can be a "huge failure" to you but if they get the guy they wanted it doesn't have to be an overall failure.  I thought they threw in the towel trading Sammy, I hated the the Dareus trade, I thought he should have gone for it on 4th down against the Colts.  All that said, the Bills made the playoffs and I am fully on board with the process.  I don't like Allen.  He screams Blaine Gabbert to me in that he has no business being discussed in the top half of the first round but there he sits.  If the Bills draft him I'll hope like hell it works.  Whomever the team drafts I'll anxiously await Astro notes to see if I need to be nervous.  These guys (at least for me) have earned some rope.  As long as they take a shot, even if it is a guy I don't like, I'll play the wait and see game.

 

btw I'm not without bias myself.  Rosen/Mayfield in a Bills uniform and I'm pumped. 

 

I definitely have some bias, but I think they need to get one of those top two guys. I've made it clear that I love Rosen and I really don't like Rudolph. I actually do like Mayfield, but you are certainly taking a risk by drafting him, and if he fails, you look like an idiot. I think teams are going to blitz the balls off of Mayfield and he is going to struggle. I just don't think this regime is going to bank on all of that. I actually don't love Darnold, but you can't argue the upside for a guy who is only 20. but I do think they should draft Darnold or Rosen. I guess I should change the world "failure" to huge disappointment. 

 

To have all of the "draft capital" and not getting a top guy would be very disappointing. 

 

11 minutes ago, Logic said:

Oh, and by the way...you know who reminds me a lot of Doug Whaley? Rams GM Les Snead. Never met a trade or splashy move he didn't like. Collects talent rather than building a TEAM. All in on immediate success at the probable expense of long term success. I'm glad we don't have that kind of guy at the helm any more. I'll take Beane over Snead all day.

 

The biggest difference between these two is that Snead found the quarterback and Whaley struck out. Snead hasn't been the greatest drafter, but found a couple of great players. Generally speaking, I really liked a lot of what Whaley did but he could not get that quarterback, and when he did take a shot, he took the wrong guys. And now he is out of the league. 

 

That is why this draft is so important to this regime and finding the right quarterback is #1 priority by a long shot. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[muppy]

14 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

The hiring of Rex killed Whaley. Whaley will get a 2nd chance like Rick Speilman and he'll do a great job with his new team.  

 as director of pro personnel YES but general manager again..I'm not so sure...I think he should stay in his lane what he excels in best arguably imho is as a scout./talent evaluator.  

[Logic]

9 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

The biggest difference between these two is that Snead found the quarterback and Whaley struck out. Snead hasn't been the greatest drafter, but found a couple of great players. Generally speaking, I really liked a lot of what Whaley did but he could not get that quarterback, and when he did take a shot, he took the wrong guys. And now he is out of the league. 

 

That is why this draft is so important to this regime and finding the right quarterback is #1 priority by a long shot. 

Yeah...having the 1st overall pick in the draft is usually mighty helpful in that regard!

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Yeah...having the 1st overall pick in the draft is usually mighty helpful in that regard!

 

They didnt "have" it. They put on their big-boy pants and did what it took to get it.

 

Los Angeles's first-round, two second-round, and third-round selections in this year's draft (15th, 43rd, 45th, and 76th) as well as Los Angeles's first- and third-round selections in the 2017 NFL Draft

 

2 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds.

 

Git'r'dun.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by DrDawkinstein

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Yeah...having the 1st overall pick in the draft is usually mighty helpful in that regard!

 

And he still technically took the wrong guy!

[Nihilarian]

18 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I always find it funny that people assume that there wasn’t a plan before. They were just spitting in the wind. That’s just ridiculous. You may not have liked the plan but obviously there was a strategy in place. 

2

2

Levy, Brandon, Nix, and Whaley all had plans...the best laid plans of mice and men.

 

If this regime trades back in the first round and drafts a QB. Then finds out the QB isn't so good. Yet, later on, uses two first-round picks plus a fourth on a WR who gained all his yards in college in a play this team doesn't utilize that often to help make that QB better. Well, the end result should take place much faster I'd think. 

 

 

What a cluster#### of mismanagement over the years, and years!  Just a very brief synopsis.  

Donte Whitner instead of Haloti Ngata.

 

RB Marshawn Lynch was a good pick. But then the FO refused to properly upgrade the line so the guy was always carrying three defenders on him to make yards. Oh, wait! They did bring in some useless high priced free agents that pissed off the teams pro bowler at LT. So, they need to trade away that pro bowl LT and draft a pass rushing one-year wonder at DE who was the biggest bust of the draft when they could have taken an actual useful DE in Brian Orakpo. 

 

Still needing an LT they take a "waterbug" RB who has great difficulty in distinguishing his elbow from his backside.  From the new GM stating that "We're not that far away," that whole 2010 draft was bust worthy.The team finished the season 4-12 with the starting QB outright cut after two starts.

 

Again, still needing a quality LT, and a franchise QB the team drafts a stud DT. With so many needs the team stays put and drafts that tackle.

 

The Bills haven't had a decent pass rusher since 2009 after DE Aaron Schobel retired. Since the scouts and GM are so inept that they cannot find a viable pass rusher in the draft the last few years. So they decide to spend 100 million on a free agent pass rushing DE and that really didn't help the team win more games. But, it did help put butts in the seats. 

 

* I just wanted to add that it took a washed up, has been of a defensive-minded head coach who destroyed a top-five defense to finally find/bring in a QB who could take the team to the playoffs for the first time since 1999.

This bum of a head coach was also smart enough to recognize how a quality offensive guard could improve the team in so many ways. So he personally vouched for this troubled player no other team wanted.  This all-pro OG was the first since Ruben Brown and helped raise the play of both players next to him. He also attempted to bring in another quality OG but failed.

The importance of superior players on the offensive line was not lost on those Buffalo Bills playoff teams of the late 80's- early 90's or the AFL championship teams of the 1960s. 

 

The ineptitude of the management of this team since the late owner fired GM John Butler in December of 2000 has been astounding...but yeah, they all had plans. 

 

 

What point the OP was attempting to convey is this new regime really seems to know what they are doing so far and that is so very comforting compared to previous regimes.

 

.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Nihilarian