Scouts Inc (McShay): First time in 15 years that 4 QBs had a grade of 90+

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

I was talking about your logic that none of these QBs are worth trading up for because no one is calling offering a multitude of picks. You don't know that they aren't being given trade offers for the first overall pick. Your argument boils down to "because no one has already traded up, then it obviously isn't worth trading up for"

 

 "If there were a consensus number 1 then the Brown's would have been flooded with trade offers for the number one overall pick."

  That statement applied to if there were a number one consensus player which there can only be one of.  My statement was of course much broader than discussing a clear number one option.  As much was said when I stated 20 teams are looking for QB's and most will miss which really is the heart of the matter as there is no clear system that works most of the time.  But you keep playing "big city lawyer" and isolate sentences from paragraphs which have a broader meaning.  Again, I would ask you if you have special talents that the NFL critically needs then why spend time with the bumpkins and rubes on TBD?

[What a Tuel]

8 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  That statement applied to if there were a number one consensus player which there can only be one of.  My statement was of course much broader than discussing a clear number one option.  As much was said when I stated 20 teams are looking for QB's and most will miss which really is the heart of the matter as there is no clear system that works most of the time.  But you keep playing "big city lawyer" and isolate sentences from paragraphs which have a broader meaning.  Again, I would ask you if you have special talents that the NFL critically needs then why spend time with the bumpkins and rubes on TBD?

 

When have I ever pretended I have a system or even know which QB to pick? I have faith Beane will do the right thing, but if he passes up on trading up with this draft capital at this point in time, then he better damn well have a plan B for QB that works, and he better pray that a team like the Jets who beat him to the punch don't strike gold, because that would be a nightmare for us just departing from the Tom Brady era.

 

Like I said from the beginning, the plan is to get it right. Beane needs to find the guy he wants and get him whether it be Rudolph or Rosen or McCarran. He just needs to make the right decision.

 

Edit: And while I obviously know that is easier said than done, that is his job as General Manager to make these kinds of calls and be right at crucial moments.

Edited April 6, 2018 by What a Tuel

[Seanbillsfan2206]

45 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

We don't know this as a fact.  We know what the draft media guys say, but we don't have access to team boards and how they grade these guys.  I'm all aboard the Rosen or Mayfield trains but those two are my preference for the Bills.  I don't know how BB and McDermott grades the QBs.  I know how Kiper, Mayock, Brooks, Jeremiah so on and so forth do, but I don't know how the Bills, Jets, Browns you get the picture.

Yeah, and Grizzly Adams had a beard 

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

When have I ever pretended I have a system or even know which QB to pick? I have faith Beane will do the right thing, but if he passes up on trading up with this draft capital at this point in time, then he better damn well have a plan B for QB that works, and he better pray that a team like the Jets who beat him to the punch don't strike gold, because that would be a nightmare for us just departing from the Tom Brady era.

 

Like I said from the beginning, the plan is to get it right. Beane needs to find the guy he wants and get him whether it be Rudolph or Rosen or McCarran. He just needs to make the right decision.

  Anything involving a human being is anything but being scientifically precise.  The Jets may get a QB due to analysis or they may get a QB due to dumb luck.  But one thing is for sure in this day and age and that is they will never admit to dumb luck to give their competition any satisfaction.  Bill Belichick lives by doing that.  He will never admit that his success is tied to Brady.  He would rather have everybody here believe it is due to some dark force named "The Patriot Way."  And if the Jets strike gold then for God's sakes build a defense that can counter that QB.  We might have taken more games from the Pats if we did not have McCargo's, Whitner's, and Maybin's leading the way.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Projection seems to be the operative word between the two camps.   

 

Those that say Allen's the next Big Ben are projecting, because Rothlisberger had way better production in college and was much more NFL ready.   They're assuming Allen will improve his accuracy once he has a more accomplished team around him.    Those that say he'll bust are more apt to look at his production and say he is what he is.

 

Flip a coin.    Although Polian, Butler and Modrak always put production ahead of potential, so the red flags appear warranted...

The attach link is an SI article based on an interview of Jordan Palmer who worked with Darnold and Allen when he was working with them together. There are a number of people who are reluctant to use a high pick on Allen. I'm not one of them. 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/06/jordan-palmer-sam-darnold-josh-allen

[BuffaloRebound]

I just don't think you can trade up that far to take Allen.   Seems like he's won the offseason, but still so many questions about his game performance.  I'd take him at 12.  Not sure how much higher I'd go to take him.  

[Mikey152]

What is Bill Belichick's quote again???  "Do your job..."

 

Yes, Quarterback is arguably the most important and hardest job on the field.  Yes, tons of guys fail.  But at the end of the day, it is still just a position on the team.  It isn't the whole team by itself and it doesn't operate independently of teammates and coaches...so why does everyone seem hell-bent on evaluating it that way?  

 

Just because a quarterback sucked in the NFL doesn't mean that scouting reports were wrong.  Why is it that we say football is the ultimate team sport out of one side of our mouth, then proceed to pass judgement on individual players based on something totally non-contextual like basic rate metrics?  Or even worse, wins and loses.  For example, comparing efficiency metrics between a 4 year starter playing in a spread offense in the big 12 vs. a two year starter playing in a pro-style system in the big sky conference...how is that an apples to apples comparison?  Or how about Tyrod Taylor having top 10 efficiency stats and making a pro-bowl?

 

It's not just quarterbacks, either.  A few years back everyone thought our receivers were garbage outside of Sammy.  But Robert Woods, Chris Hogan and Marquise Godwin proved that on the right team they were viable.  That quartet on the same team would look downright dynamic today....assuming they were on a team conducive to their success.

 

And why is everyone saying Josh Allen has a low floor?  Doesn't the fact that he is the best QB in the draft physically (and mentally if you go by wonderlic) mean he has the highest floor?  Baker Mayfield isn't getting taller and Josh Rosen cant reverse his injury history and both of them have reps for being douchebags...those are low floors.   

Edited April 6, 2018 by Mikey152

[ColdFront_USAF]

On 4/5/2018 at 11:28 PM, 4merper4mer said:

So these guys all fit somewhere between Sanchez and Henne?

 

Let's trade all our picks.

 

I know you're probably joking, but we can't ignore that Goff, Wentz, Mariota and Cam are all also between those two quarterbacks. So is Tannehill, for what that's worth. It also has Russell ahead of Matt Ryan, Rivers, and the other guys I just mentioned. Basically it doesn't mean much. 

[4merper4mer]

16 minutes ago, ColdFront_USAF said:

 

I know you're probably joking, but we can't ignore that Goff, Wentz, Mariota and Cam are all also between those two quarterbacks. So is Tannehill, for what that's worth. It also has Russell ahead of Matt Ryan, Rivers, and the other guys I just mentioned. Basically it doesn't mean much. 

Conclusion:. McShay is worthless.  As if we couldn't tell by looking at him.

[jdonley1180]

The mass media is a hype machine, sometimes I wonder if marketing firms / agents / media,  are all working together just to make more money..... wait... eeeeerrrrrrrrr????

[Mat68]

20 minutes ago, jdonley1180 said:

The mass media is a hype machine, sometimes I wonder if marketing firms / agents / media,  are all working together just to make more money..... wait... eeeeerrrrrrrrr????

 

This draft has 5 legitimate first rd qbs.   Every year they inflate some QBs to create more ratings and interest because they need to manufacturer stories for their broadcasts.  That makes it difficult to find what former classes were graded and how the current class rates.  NFL executives are comparing this draft to previous and future ones.  Allen is getting drafted in the top 5 because he has an arm like Rodgers and Stafford with the size of Big ben and Cam.  

[Buffalo Boy]

5 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Wait, WHAT?  What in God's name are you talking about??  We have been in, far and away, the greatest era of QB play in NFL history for the last 15-20 years!!  We're at the end of an era that saw four of the top ten QB's to ever play the game of football all in their prime at the same time (Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers), not to mention, Roethlisberger, who is a top 15 all time QB.  But more importantly, we're in a time where a guy like Kirk Cousins is like an average NFL QB.  A guy like Matthew Stafford is like MAYBE a top ten QB!  Please, PLEASE, tell me the golden era of QB play when the average QB was better than Kirk Cousins.  Please tell me the golden era of QB play when a guy like Tyrod Taylor was a below average starting QB, yet was actually pretty efficient.  I am dying to hear your response.  

Brother, No need to argue.

If you wish to believe the numbers have nothing to do with the rule changes protecting the QBs and Receivers , more power to you.

Is Brady as good as Montana?

Let him get the snot knocked out of him without drawing penalties the way Joe did and maybe , just maybe he doesn’t have quite as many rings.

[metzelaars_lives]

21 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Brother, No need to argue.

If you wish to believe the numbers have nothing to do with the rule changes protecting the QBs and Receivers , more power to you.

Is Brady as good as Montana?

Let him get the snot knocked out of him without drawing penalties the way Joe did and maybe , just maybe he doesn’t have quite as many rings.

Of course Brady is a better all time QB than Montana, it's not even remotely close.  Just because they let players get away with more back then and you think "guys were tougher," doesn't mean they were better.

[US Egg]

On 4/5/2018 at 10:34 AM, Mojo44 said:

 In that case, the bills should draft two of them to play it safe. In that way the odds are significantly increased that at least one of them will be a hit.

I jokingly said that's what Cleveland should do and was told that be stupid. 

 

The more I thought about it,  given the failure rate of 1st round QB's, I don't think it's that's crazy.

[PrimeTime101]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:19 PM, metzelaars_lives said:

Wait, WHAT?  What in God's name are you talking about??  We have been in, far and away, the greatest era of QB play in NFL history for the last 15-20 years!!  We're at the end of an era that saw four of the top ten QB's to ever play the game of football all in their prime at the same time (Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers), not to mention, Roethlisberger, who is a top 15 all time QB.  But more importantly, we're in a time where a guy like Kirk Cousins is like an average NFL QB.  A guy like Matthew Stafford is like MAYBE a top ten QB!  Please, PLEASE, tell me the golden era of QB play when the average QB was better than Kirk Cousins.  Please tell me the golden era of QB play when a guy like Tyrod Taylor was a below average starting QB, yet was actually pretty efficient.  I am dying to hear your response.  

and if you think your going to get a response on that.. think again lol

[Buffalo Ballin]

These grades are BS. WTF is this? Made up crap. Time will tell with these young QBs.

[billsfan89]

I wonder what Lamar Jacksons grade is. Jackson is a risky pick since he needs to polish up his fundamentals a lot and he could use some maturity. But Jackson has unmatched athleticism for a QB, the most athletic QB prospect since Cam Newton and arguably the best athlete at QB since Vick came out. Jackson is super fast, he has a cannon arm, and while he might not come off as the brightest kid he by all accounts has a good work ethic and has football smarts. 

 

I think Jackson has the highest ceiling of any QB in this draft. Jackson could develop into what Vick was on the Eagles that one magic season but unlike Vick who wasted a lot of his physical prime in Atlanta relying on his athleticism and not working hard, Jackson could acquire that passing capability much earlier in his physical prime. 2010 Eagles Vick was a QB that you could win a Super Bowl with. Vick never sustained that level of success with the Eagles because he was already 30 by the time he got into the right system and he had sustained major injuries in Atlanta (Plus rules protecting the QB weren't as good back in the 00's as they are now.) 

 

Jackson is a project but he is a tantalizing project. I wouldn't trade up for Jackson but if the top 4 QB's are gone by pick 6 then I don't think Jackson at pick 12 is a bad fall back. The team would still have 4 picks remaining in the top 65 to address other needs and can build a better team around AJ while Jackson sits for at least 2 seasons. 

[Boatdrinks]

8 hours ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

These grades are BS. WTF is this? Made up crap. Time will tell with these young QBs.

Not BS, but the result of detailed analysis. Remember , these players are prospects and are graded as such. It's far from guaranteed that all  of them will produce at the NFL level. 

[Domdab99]

McShay is clicking buttons. He's tossing a coin. 

[DCOrange]

7 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I wonder what Lamar Jacksons grade is. Jackson is a risky pick since he needs to polish up his fundamentals a lot and he could use some maturity. But Jackson has unmatched athleticism for a QB, the most athletic QB prospect since Cam Newton and arguably the best athlete at QB since Vick came out. Jackson is super fast, he has a cannon arm, and while he might not come off as the brightest kid he by all accounts has a good work ethic and has football smarts. 

 

I think Jackson has the highest ceiling of any QB in this draft. Jackson could develop into what Vick was on the Eagles that one magic season but unlike Vick who wasted a lot of his physical prime in Atlanta relying on his athleticism and not working hard, Jackson could acquire that passing capability much earlier in his physical prime. 2010 Eagles Vick was a QB that you could win a Super Bowl with. Vick never sustained that level of success with the Eagles because he was already 30 by the time he got into the right system and he had sustained major injuries in Atlanta (Plus rules protecting the QB weren't as good back in the 00's as they are now.) 

 

Jackson is a project but he is a tantalizing project. I wouldn't trade up for Jackson but if the top 4 QB's are gone by pick 6 then I don't think Jackson at pick 12 is a bad fall back. The team would still have 4 picks remaining in the top 65 to address other needs and can build a better team around AJ while Jackson sits for at least 2 seasons. 

He’s an 84 or 85. I don’t remember which off the top of my head