Moving up to #2 = No Playoffs for the next three years

[Domdab99]

16 minutes ago, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

Let’s play a little game... the last time the Bills won a playoff game was with which QB? And in what round did we draft that QB? Now, how many QBs have we drafted in the first round since then? Like I said, saying we won’t make the playoffs for a couple years if we trade up for a top QB is one of the dumbest thing I have ever read, especially on a Bills forum. So dang dumb. 

 

This isn't a 100% either/or situation.  You guys keep trying to attribute to me viewpoints I haven't said, or simplify things I have said.

 

So I'm just going to stop trying to have a discussion with you. It's not worth my time. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Domdab99

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

20 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

 

This isn't a 100% either/or situation.  You guys keep trying to attribute to me viewpoints I haven't said, or simplify things I have said.

 

So I'm just going to stop trying to have a discussion with you. It's not worth my time. 

 

You're whole thread is based on your conjecture, my friend.  What do you expect?  It's a Conjecture War of now 13 pages!  You can't tell me you don't like it!

[Domdab99]

23 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

You're whole thread is based on your conjecture, my friend.  What do you expect?  It's a Conjecture War of now 13 pages!  You can't tell me you don't like it!

 

LOL!!

 

I thought this was my other thread about the metric article. MakeBuffaloGreatAgain has every right to call my opinion dumb in this thread. This thread is completely conjecture! 

[Boatdrinks]

52 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

From the way they played in that wildcard game? -I'd have to say definitely not.

They held an offense that beat PIT twice to 10 points in their own stadium. That same offense was 4 minutes away from beating NE to go to the SB. Say what you will about the 2017 Bills , but a better QB wins that WC game for them. That would have been their first playoff win since 1995. They need to get a top QB in this draft. It's the one thing you can't usually get anywhere else. Sure it would be great if they had the good fortune of say, the Steelers who had Ben fall into their lap at 11 in '04. After 21 years, it's up to them to make a bit of their own luck. 

[#34fan]

5 hours ago, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

Let’s play a little game... the last time the Bills won a playoff game was with which QB? And in what round did we draft that QB? Now, how many QBs have we drafted in the first round since then?  

 

Why don't we look at the facts, with a little bit of context instead?

 

Jim Kelly was the 3rd QB off the board in the 1983 draft... He was taken by the Buffalo Bills not at 2 or 3 or 4, -but at #14!... Ironically, it was a pick obtained from CLE..

Kelly wasn't even the first player taken by BUF!... They picked TE Tony Hunter ahead of Kelly at #12..  John Elway went #1overall to Baltimore, and Todd Blackledge went to the Chiefs at #7... The pick had little meaning because Kelly opted to play for the USFL's Houston Gamblers instead!... Kelly would not suit-up for BUF until 1986! ...

 

That means Reed was already here... Metzelaars was already here, Smith was already here and Talley was already here.... -Some semblance of a foundation was present PRIOR to Kelly ever playing a down for the Buffalo Bills!

Remember also that Kelly wasn't some rookie greenhorn lining up under center... he was a former MVP, and veteran playoff QB in another league!

 

But something else rare and wonderful happened in '86 apart from Kelly returning to the Bills... Mid season, Bill Polian fired HC Hank Bullough, and replaced him with a guy named Marv Levy... That event, in my opinion, was a major turning point in the evolution of the Bills as a perennial playoff team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by #34fan

[maryland-bills-fan]

23 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We ... can ... sit ... the ... rookie ... behind ... McCarron. You guys keep not hearing this but it's a very decent possibility that first year.

 

Our OL may actually be pretty good. They were quite good before Wood's injury. And last time he played center Groy played well. The right side needs work but Ducasse was decent later in the year.  But our center looks decent and our LT played very well indeed last year.

 

And yet again, there's every chance our new QB spends a year on the bench behind McCarron.

 

Oh, and Vaitai was the tackle for 10 games in 2016 in Philly. Kelce and Peters were good but during the seasons the starters at guard weren't good enough and they had to bring in the backups. And you knew that, didn't you? It's the reason you only mentioned center and tackles.  

 

By the way, remind me, how many sacks did Philly allow this year? 50. 

 

The original sentiment here was that Philly'd already built the team up before they'd brought in Wentz. And the 2015 roster makes it very clear they hadn't, as does the major turnover during the next two seasons.

I disagree.  We have aging guards who are not being pushed by recently drafted younger guys. The tackles are fair but not great.  The center is a backup.  Last year the stats for the line are misleading.  Taylor got ~25% of the rushing yards and Shady ~75%.   Defenses worked on containment of Taylor and often used a spy on him.  The offensive line looks better when the defense is sort of playing a player short. They were able to do this because Taylor was not a big danger to hurt them with his arm.   Drafting a running QB is not a good thing for the pros.  He will get hurt, and then you are playing with a backup.  The players are bigger and faster and stronger than college and the collisions are higher energy than college- but the bones and ligaments are not stronger to the same extent. .............. We have to upgrade the offensive line and linebackers.

15 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So a playoff team that had a very decent to good defense last year and made additions on that side of the ball this offseason as well all of the sudden has so many holes and cant challenge for the playoffs for THREE years if they trade up for a QB?

Have you looked at the loss of linebackers and cornerbacks?  That is 3 holes right there.

[WideRightRevenge]

On 4/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, Domdab99 said:

Plus, we've got a huge cap surplas next year....we can be very pro-active in FA then. 

I'm with you as I love having the picks .. that said ... name a FA QB who switched teams that made impact ... doesn't typically happen (Drew Brees only HOF example I can think of ... Farve was well beyond his prime when he was jumping teams) ..  you use FA and cap space to fill other holes .. but teams don't let what they believe to be QBs in their prime go ... now Cousins may be an exception .. but let's see what happens ... Garapolo was a trade so doesn;'t count in this opinion ... but RG III, dating myself but Scott Mitchell, Donovan McNabb.  Now you have you 2nd tier QB's Delhomme, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, but again .. those aren't going to Canton.

 

Trade to 5-8 and don't use the farm beyond that.

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

...AND here we are at "close your eyes and cross your fingers" again... How many Ryan Leaf's, Akili Smith's,  Matt Leinhart's, Andre Ware's, and Jamarcus f___ing Russell's have to get drafted before somebody trips and falls on a damn CLUE?

 

 

 

A clue is missing, alright. But it's from your argument. 

 

Close your eyes and cross your fingers is a billion miles away from the actual argument you're facing, which is this ... it's very rare for most teams to be in a position or to be able to reach a position where you can get very high in the draft in a year when one or more possible franchise guys the place where the historic best chance of getting a franchise QB has always been - very early in the first round of the draft - and if your front office believes in a guy they absolutely should do what is necessary and take their shot. It's true that the odds are overall not much more than 50%. But the odds of success in every single other way of getting a franchise QB are vastly lower. This maximizes your chances.

 

It's like the old quote about democracy that Churchill resurrected. "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." Same here. Getting a QB in the top few picks of the draft is also the worst way to do it except all the others.

 

"How many Ryan Leaf's, Akili Smith's,  Matt Leinhart's, Andre Ware's, and Jamarcus f___ing Russell's have to get drafted before somebody trips and falls on a damn CLUE??" you ask?

 

Here's the same question, revised and much more sensible ... how many Jared Goffs, Mitch Trubiskys, DeShaun Watsons and f_____ing Carson Wentzs have to get traded up for before people like you trip and fall on a damn CLUE yourself?

 

 

[auburnbillsbacker]

I completely disagree with this.  If we end up with a franchise QB our odds of making the playoffs goes way up every season after year 1.  

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

I disagree.  We have aging guards who are not being pushed by recently drafted younger guys. The tackles are fair but not great.  The center is a backup.  Last year the stats for the line are misleading.  Taylor got ~25% of the rushing yards and Shady ~75%.   Defenses worked on containment of Taylor and often used a spy on him.  The offensive line looks better when the defense is sort of playing a player short. They were able to do this because Taylor was not a big danger to hurt them with his arm.   Drafting a running QB is not a good thing for the pros.  He will get hurt, and then you are playing with a backup.  The players are bigger and faster and stronger than college and the collisions are higher energy than college- but the bones and ligaments are not stronger to the same extent. .............. We have to upgrade the offensive line and linebackers.

 

 

 

Disagree all you like, it's still true. The O-line last year was quite good. Especially the left side. PFF agrees. Everyone does, really. And Taylor sucked badly enough at the passing game that teams were able to concentrate, as they have the past two years, on stopping the run. And yet the running game still was still by far the offense's strength last year. The OL had a very large share of that.

 

Are you talking about Allen as a running QB who will get hurt? Nonsense. The guy's bigger and stronger than most RBs. He's closer to Newton physically than most other QBs. And who's to say they run him if they draft him.

 

Besides, if you're talking about Allen you are - again - missing the point by light years. Allen is going to sit on the bench. If Allen's the guy, McCarron will be very happy and by the end of the next couple of years, very experienced.

 

And to repeat yet again ... yes, we need upgrades. Yes, we have holes. And yes, we have three or four years to fill those holes. Whereas if we draft to fill holes and don't get a franchise QB now, we're not likely to get the chance to draft a franchise QB for another six or seven years of being on the high end of mediocre.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

15 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

You can't seriously be talking about the Bills?... The team had one of the worst run defenses in the league last year... Ranked 28th I believe... Pass defense sucked too... 20th or something like that.

 

If you look at mean which is the traditional way of ranking NFL defense I accept then yes you could argue the pass defense sucked.  It was actually GOOD in more games than it was bad last year - the issue was when it was bad it was very bad and it led to the 20th overall ranking.  But they took the ball away an awful lot too.  The run D was shocking from the point they traded Dareus after being about average before that.  That is because other than Kyle none of the DTs on last year's roster should be in the NFL in my opinion.  

[MAJBobby]

6 hours ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

I disagree.  We have aging guards who are not being pushed by recently drafted younger guys. The tackles are fair but not great.  The center is a backup.  Last year the stats for the line are misleading.  Taylor got ~25% of the rushing yards and Shady ~75%.   Defenses worked on containment of Taylor and often used a spy on him.  The offensive line looks better when the defense is sort of playing a player short. They were able to do this because Taylor was not a big danger to hurt them with his arm.   Drafting a running QB is not a good thing for the pros.  He will get hurt, and then you are playing with a backup.  The players are bigger and faster and stronger than college and the collisions are higher energy than college- but the bones and ligaments are not stronger to the same extent. .............. We have to upgrade the offensive line and linebackers.

Have you looked at the loss of linebackers and cornerbacks?  That is 3 holes right there.

 

Nope it really isnt. 

[#34fan]

19 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

They held an offense that beat PIT twice to 10 points in their own stadium. That same offense was 4 minutes away from beating NE to go to the SB. Say what you will about the 2017 Bills , but a better QB wins that WC game for them. That would have been their first playoff win since 1995. They need to get a top QB in this draft. It's the one thing you can't usually get anywhere else. Sure it would be great if they had the good fortune of say, the Steelers who had Ben fall into their lap at 11 in '04. After 21 years, it's up to them to make a bit of their own luck. 

 

So... The Bills score 3 points vs. JAX in the entire wildcard game, but we're the ones who held THEM?.... R-i-i-i-i-i-ight.

And... JAX won because their 1st round "Franchise Guy" who passed for 75 yards that day just obliterated our secondary... Oooo-kaaay.

It had nothing to do with the six pro-bowlers that came off that #2 ranked, run-suffocating defense....

It's a mere fluke, that in their first 10 games, JAX  held 6 opponents to 9 points or less! ... Okay...

I just have one question: -How does a "better QB" win that wildcard game when MUCH "better QB's" (flacco, Roethlisberger) simply couldn't score against JAX in the early part of the season?  -How much better than those two do you think Josh Rosen is?

Okay, that was two questions... Pick one.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by #34fan

[Buffalo Ballin]

I would not trade up either. It's not worth it. I've been consistent with my past posts about this.

 

We will get a QB at number 12 or 22 no matter what. Relax. Don't force the issue. A good team with a perennial top 5 defense will kill all QBs even Tom Brady. Also, the percentage of QBs tend to bust way higher compared to the ones who succeed and have a long career. I'm very confident that we're not trading up regardless of the latest mock drafts and podcasts.

[White Linen]

On 4/5/2018 at 3:29 AM, #34fan said:

 

Philly's defense was anchored by pro bowler Connor Barwin, and perennial pro-bowler Fletcher Cox.. In 2015 Chip Kelly had that entire defense playing out of scheme... Hence, they sucked badly... In 2016 they finished as the NFL's 12th ranked defense under Jim Schwartz...  Kelly and his staff were awful, so the coaching changes from '15-'16 (Chip Kelly and Billy Davis) to '16-'17 (Frank Reich and Jim Schwartz) improved BOTH sides of the ball.

The Base WR and TE talent from '15 remained largely in tact with Agholor, Matthews, Burton, Celek, and Ertz welcoming Wentz to the equation in '2016.

 

The Bills current situation is quite different... How long can KW continue to be effective?  -Who will replace Dareus?..  What can we expect out of Shaq Lawson?... Can we upgrade from Preston Brown?..  Will Charles Clay's health hold up?... Is O'Leary a long-term solution at TE?... Wtf can we expect out of Zay Jones?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!!

 

Now you wanna place a rookie QB in the middle of this mess, and expect some big turnaround?  

 

Why not fix the issues?...  Use the valuable picks you have to draft  young NFL starting talent!... That way, you bring your rookie QB into the best possible situation.

 

 

 

You do realize other drafted positions besides QB don't play well in the NFL, right?  Why don't you tell me what happens when the "issues" you suggest to fix with draftees don't play well?

[Wily Dog]

37 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

You do realize other drafted positions besides QB don't play well in the NFL, right?  Why don't you tell me what happens when the "issues" you suggest to fix with draftees don't play well?

Watkins ,K-jo , the whole 2013 draft

[White Linen]

23 minutes ago, Wily Dog said:

Watkins ,K-jo , the whole 2013 draft

 

Exactly.  The bunch that just say fill holes and don't reach for a QB, just don't seem to realize other positions bust consistently.  

[#34fan]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

You do realize other drafted positions besides QB don't play well in the NFL, right?  Why don't you tell me what happens when the "issues" you suggest to fix with draftees don't play well?

 

If that happens, we're screwed... I'll admit it.... -WASTED pick...-But at least it won't cost us FOUR other picks that MIGHT have worked out very well for us.

 

We need to Build this team back up... Every. Pick. Counts.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by #34fan

[Sky Diver]

On 4/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, MAJBobby said:

Anyone notice what a real QB did for San Fran ONCE the trade for Jimmy G was made. 

 

Instant upgrade. 

 

But in Buffalo land it means no playoffs for 3 years 

 

Jimmy G only cost a 2nd rd pick.

[reddogblitz]

On 4/5/2018 at 5:38 PM, Madmax09 said:

Eagles moved up to 2 and won a super bowl in 2 yrs. 

 

Rams moved up to first pick and got to playoffs and lost the first game,just like us.