Old School Catholicism

[Johnny Hammersticks]

10 minutes ago, teef said:

Although I don't attend masses on the regular, there's a church like this in rochester.  I think they refer to themselves as the "new catholic" church.  they're aren't recognized by the vatican because they go against the traditional teachings.  for example, they welcome everyone to accept communion...you don't have to be catholic or have had the sacrament.  they just want you to recognize the importance of it. they allow women priests and really are accepting to everyone.  my aunt is gay, and has been with her partner since 1983.  they were finally married in front of the church a few years ago in a more traditional catholic ceremony.  the place erupted with applause when it was done.  it's the only church in the area i'd consider being a part of.  as you mentioned, they have no specific site, but rent an old music school and other building to hold masses.

 

edit:  there's music, but not a real band, and the priests still wear a more traditional garb.

 

I have some additional insight, as one of my former assistant coaches was a “pastor in training” for one of these progressive churches.  The main guy who started the original Mission City Church out at the mall, is from North Carolina.  He brought up a bunch of his people from North Carolina, and have since expanded to where they have 4 or 5 locations.  

 

While they proclaim to be progressive and accepting of all, they do not embrace homosexuality or same-sex couples in their church.  They welcome them in the door, but eventually the goal (according to my former AC) is to transform them back to heterosexual individuals with “god’s help.”  I believe all of the pastors are male, but I’m not 100% certain.

[row_33]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I think it's called The Benedict Option.  Rod Dreher is Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.  He's an intellectual and the kind of Christian culture alternative he talks about is not synonymous with hard-line Traditionalism, imo, though it might seem so to those with progressive social values.

 

gotcha.... again, the private lives of individuals and their immediate families is still crucial, using a church for a social connection or commission-churning part of your life is hopefully dead and buried forever.

 

 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

gotcha.... again, the private lives of individuals and their immediate families is still crucial, using a church for a social connection or commission-churning part of your life is hopefully dead and buried forever.

 

 

A completely privatized religion is part of the Post-Enlightenment project.  Part of the impasse between Islam and the West is that sharia law rejects a purely secular public forum.  There is an entire metaphysics with particular notions of what constitutes a person, freedom, the nature of the will and social bonds that underlies modernity and the West.  I don't think Dreher actually thinks one can constitute a radically alternative society, though I haven't read the book.  My surmise was that he wanted to put in question some of the complacent presuppositions that found the modern sensibility.  I am sympathetic to Dreher's perspective, but I suspect it is largely a pipedream.

[Philly McButterpants]

4 hours ago, Another Fan said:

My curiosities this morning led me to ask something which I'm sure cause debate or not.

 

Grandfather was an old school Catholic, thought chilling was a mortal sin and missing Mass.  Wasn't raised that extreme but grew up with that sort of influence.  The men in my family were like Jack Arnold from The Wonder Years.

 

Is that sort of upbringing a thing of the past for the most part?

 

I need help with you young whipper-snapper's lingo . . . What is Chilling?  just hanging out and being lazy?

1 hour ago, Augie said:

I almost wish we could take all the things in common with most major religions and roll them all together. Too often religion is used to divide rather than unite, in many ways. When my wife used to Chair the Catholic Charities Ball, a huge emphasis was attracting people and groups from all major religions. It’s not about being Catholic, it’s about helping people who need help.   

 

If only the Catholic Church understood this.  They're about money IMHO.

[sherpa]

I really wish the Christian question was removed from the Catholic question.

I did 12 years of Catholic education. Usual stuff.

Got married, converted to Lutheran. It made so much more theological sense.

 

The Catholic church, in my view, has  a rich tradition that is largely invented for popularity, prosperity and longevity.

The pope, inventing the history of Mary, veneration of saints and relics. The nonsense of selling indulgences. 

It goes on and on.

 

Anyway, our kids have been raised Christians and still are, but Catholic doctrine is totally foreign to them.

 

Interestingly, and to the point of this thread, the single largest influence of whether a child continues on in the faith, is the father.

 

If both father and mother attend regularly 33% of the children will attend church regularly, and 41% will attend irregularly. 25% not at all.

If the mother is a regular attendee and the father not, only 3% will attend regularly, but 59% irregularly. 38% not at all.

 

Further, if a father does not go to church, only one in fifty will become a regular attendee, while a non practicing mother with a practicing father will see one third of their children attend.

 

Seems that the father is critical, and portends a number of things if the father isn't ever present.

 

Dads and church

 

In retirement, I teach a course for Christians that is designed to end generational poverty.

The 800 pound gorilla in the group that attends is the total absence of males.

Just a thought.

 

 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

This thread sounds like a "get off my lawn" rant. 

 

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but there were "good people" and "bad people" 100 years ago, 75 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago as well as today.

 

 

[Augie]

16 minutes ago, Philly McButterpants said:

 

 

If only the Catholic Church understood this.  They're about money IMHO.

 

There is certainly that aspect as well, but there is a mix of good and bad. It’s just like almost everything and everyone in that respect. What’s the ratio? Well, that’s what counts. 

[WhoTom]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Part of the impasse between Islam and the West is that sharia law rejects a purely secular public forum

 

There are a lot of people in the West who reject a purely secular public forum, too. Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims have a lot in common; ironically, they don't recognize it.

 

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school through 9th grade. Got confirmed in 9th grade. Was forced to attend religious instruction through high school. Through college, I went to church every Sunday, not because I wanted to, but because it takes an hour to sit through mass, and that was easier than arguing with my parents all week about why I didn't go. When I graduated from college and moved out, I left the church and never looked back. My parents accepted it and we had a good relationship afterwards.

 

My wife and I are secular and we raised our son in a secular environment. No baptism. Science, philosophy, secular Buddhism, and history are our guides. (Secular Buddhism is following the teachings of the Buddha without the mysticism. In that respect, you could call me a secular Christian, too.) Our son is 22 now, and he's intelligent, kind, respectful, and generous. I cringe when people say that you can't be moral without religion. What's "moral" about behaving in order to get an eternal reward or to avoid everlasting punishment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BeginnersMind]

4 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

My wife and I are secular and we raised our son in a secular environment. No baptism. Science, philosophy, secular Buddhism, and history are our guides. (Secular Buddhism is following the teachings of the Buddha without the mysticism. In that respect, you could call me a secular Christian, too.) Our son is 22 now, and he's intelligent, kind, respectful, and generous. I cringe when people say that you can't be moral without religion. What's "moral" about behaving in order to get an eternal reward or to avoid everlasting punishment?

 

Yep. The only thing I feel my daughter has missed growing up secular is an appreciation of the Bible stories in literary contexts. Other than that, she's an incredible kid with a moral compass to rival anyone, and she did it without a hint of organized religion. 

 

I'm not against organized religion per se--it's just not necessary. Plenty of good people living all over the world without it. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Chillin is a mortal sin:

 

Sloth

 

 

[Another Fan]

30 minutes ago, Philly McButterpants said:

 

I need help with you young whipper-snapper's lingo . . . What is Chilling?  just hanging out and being lazy?

 

If only the Catholic Church understood this.  They're about money IMHO.

Lol yeah.  Even on the weekend after working a 60 hour week.  Poor guy died of stress among other things now that I think about it (my grandpa).

 

Catholicism can keep you on the right track in life but as others said you should live that way because of fear of the after world.  

[ExiledInIllinois]

7 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Yep. The only thing I feel my daughter has missed growing up secular is an appreciation of the Bible stories in literary contexts. Other than that, she's an incredible kid with a moral compass to rival anyone, and she did it without a hint of organized religion. 

 

I'm not against organized religion per se--it's just not necessary. Plenty of good people living all over the world without it. 

But a foundation should be there!

 

Guide her iff the waves of life get choppy.  It's on you.  You gotta be there.

36 minutes ago, Philly McButterpants said:

 

I need help with you young whipper-snapper's lingo . . . What is Chilling?  just hanging out and being lazy?

 

If only the Catholic Church understood this.  They're about money IMHO.

 

Sloth

 

And it is very, VERY DEADLY in a secular kinda way [One of my Super Powers is: Elastic Waistband]...

[BeginnersMind]

5 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

But a foundation should be there!

 

Guide her iff the waves of life get choppy.  It's on you.  You gotta be there.

 

She has a foundation. It's just not from the bible.Her foundation, of course, has lots to do with the golden rule--but she thinks that's a good path to follow without much concern for hell, Paul's Letters, Revelations, Moses, etc. 

 

If she chooses a religion one day, that will be hers to decide. I grew up at the edges of one and never felt a need to dive in. These days, I'm spiritually closest to secular Buddhist. My wife was devout Presby and largely isn't now. My daughter will find her own spiritual path. 

 

She's 16. I guide her now. I guided her when she was 4. And I'll guide her as I lay dying. But she's largely starting to steer her own ship. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

Lol yeah.  Even on the weekend after working a 60 hour week.  Poor guy died of stress among other things now that I think about it (my grandpa).

 

Catholicism can keep you on the right track in life but as others said you should live that way because of fear of the after world.  

That's what Sunday is for.

 

Sure it wasn't diet? Smoking? Booze?

 

Poor guy must have not chilled on Sunday and let on others to believe he was taking in Mass.

[Dr. Who]

32 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

There are a lot of people in the West who reject a purely secular public forum, too. Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims have a lot in common; ironically, they don't recognize it.

 

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school through 9th grade. Got confirmed in 9th grade. Was forced to attend religious instruction through high school. Through college, I went to church every Sunday, not because I wanted to, but because it takes an hour to sit through mass, and that was easier than arguing with my parents all week about why I didn't go. When I graduated from college and moved out, I left the church and never looked back. My parents accepted it and we had a good relationship afterwards.

 

My wife and I are secular and we raised our son in a secular environment. No baptism. Science, philosophy, secular Buddhism, and history are our guides. (Secular Buddhism is following the teachings of the Buddha without the mysticism. In that respect, you could call me a secular Christian, too.) Our son is 22 now, and he's intelligent, kind, respectful, and generous. I cringe when people say that you can't be moral without religion. What's "moral" about behaving in order to get an eternal reward or to avoid everlasting punishment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are diverse forms of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, any religion, for the most part.  In my view, fundamentalism is a modern phenomenon, not simply an older, atavistic  cosmological model.  Fundamentalists are anti-modern moderns, though unaware of it. 

 

One of my oldest friends is Buddhist.  Went to see the Dalai Lama when he came to UCLA decades ago.  Unfortunately, I had a few too many beers the night before and fell asleep.  I think my pal has forgiven me that by now.  It's obvious ethical behavior is achievable outside of a specifically religious affiliation, but Western monotheisms tend to make historical truth claims that are not simply separable from notions of person and love that are consequential upon forms of revelation.  People who are following a path within a tradition will not see specific truth claims as arbitrary or discardable.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Dr. Who

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

She has a foundation. It's just not from the bible.Her foundation, of course, has lots to do with the golden rule--but she thinks that's a good path to follow without much concern for hell, Paul's Letters, Revelations, Moses, etc. 

 

If she chooses a religion one day, that will be hers to decide. I grew up at the edges of one and never felt a need to dive in. These days, I'm spiritually closest to secular Buddhist. My wife was devout Presby and largely isn't now. My daughter will find her own spiritual path. 

Raise a scholar with a soul!

 

Yet, no doubt daughter is in background reaching to those strong Christian, Presby foundation.  She just don't know it yet!

 

She will... The foundation is there.

BTW... They are called:

 

"Trad Caths"

 

(Traditional Catholics, if you can't deduce it)

 

One's that want to return to pre-Vat II days.

 

Again... 500 years since start of Prot Reformation.  Martin Luther got everything he ever wanted AND more.

 

Why can't we all be Catholics again?

 

 

[sherpa]

8 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

She has a foundation. It's just not from the bible.Her foundation, of course, has lots to do with the golden rule--but she thinks that's a good path to follow without much concern for hell, Paul's Letters, Revelations, Moses, etc. 

 

 

I'm sure all is well, but when I read things like this I really wish people would understand what the Bible is really about.

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

I'm sure all is well, but when I read things like this I really wish people would understand what the Bible is really about.

 

heard that one 1,000 times....

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I'm 36 and my dad is mid 60's.

He's not like this anymore but was when I was little.  I was born left handed, did everything left handed and he wouldn't allow it.

Every time I picked up something or threw something with my left hand, he would smack it.  He forced me to be right handed.  He apologizes for it now.

Interesting.  My father was 'broken' of the left handed trait by the nuns in his grade school using the same corporal punishment, I am also left handed and he had no thoughts on the subject.  I am in my early 60s, public schools for elementary, private for secondary.  Did your father's parents have 'old world' values, or were they originally from outside North America?

[ExiledInIllinois]

9 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

heard that one 1,000 times....

 

 

Like I tell my children:

 

"Now, it is 1,001 times"  

 

Sinking in yet Mr. Know It All?