PromoTheRobot Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloRush said: They’d probably spend more money on people to help them make important decisions than Ralph did Then complain about them.
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said: Then complain about them. Thats almost a certainty 4 minutes ago, dlonce said: Ralph wasn’t complicated, he was cheap when it came to management. I have actually heard him with my own two ears say “I can hire a monkey to do his job, you want to be GM kid?” Looking back he pretty much called me a monkey. My boss and I were meeting with Stew Barber about a charitable event. He walked in and just blurted this out. It was odd but he obviously was pissed off at Barber about something. Barbers face turned beet red. If you look at the history of all the bad management hires you can see how true this claim is. The worst, in my opinion, was Harvey Johnson. Most of you were not even born for that useless GM. That was why the Bills were rarely decent. He did get lucky a couple times. He did hire Chuck Knox, and Chuck brought excitement,while hitting on his drafts. Ralph could never handle the accolades his managers received,and low balled them at contract time, (or when they were deserving of a raise)either forcing them out or terminating them. He hit on Polian luckily. As a first time GM Polian was a cheap hire, no one really knew much about him outside of footballs inner circle. Polian became successful, received accolades, and Ralph let him go with the excuse Polian couldn’t get along with his daughter Linda.That was a true statement but Bill never got along with Ralph’s daughter from the beginning. Actually, Polian didn’t get along with a lot of people. Ralph could never handle someone else’s success on his management team, always believing he was the guy who deserved the credit. It also fit his mindset,which was that anyone could be a GM. That is the main reason why the Bills were always mediocre. Thank god we have owners that check their egos at the door and are not afraid to hire good people. Now we need a QB! LOL are you serious? By complicated I meant that, as you wrote, Ralph was responsible for making some very bad decisions that hurt this franchise. Yet at the same time he was very generous and loyal to the local community.
K-9 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloRush said: LOL “demonstrated results?” Thats a joke. So basically the strategy was to hire all your decision makers on the cheap and if they are good....oh then you spend the money? Ironic how he never wanted to hire a coach that had “demonstrated experience” from another team. come on....does this list of hires sound like Ralph spares no expense? All of them (besides Marrone) were among the lowest paid coaches in the league GM - Marv Levy, Russ Brandon Buddy Nix Coach - Gregggg Williams, Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, Chan Gailey, Doug Marrone Glad you're so easily amused. Not surprised you'd find an uninformed hit piece by Sully so entertaining. Unless a team his hiring a NAME coach, then he is going to enter the league at or near the median salary. That's how it's always been, with very few exceptions. That's why references to years past is relevant today. And for crissakes, NOBODY said Mr. Wilson spared no expense or that he wasn't tight with a budget. But there were plenty of times when he operated outside of that budget as well. And I think that's worth noting in contrast to idiots like Sully who wish to leave the reader with the impression that he NEVER loosened the purse strings. If you don't, fine.
cba fan Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, K-9 said: Would you say that the Steeler's cash to cap accounting methodology killed any chance of them being winners? How about Green Bay and Kansas City? They did not employ the talent restricting "cash to cap policy" like Ralph and Bills did. Only teams that did employ it inadvertently were the misers in Cincinnati and Cleveland. If you remember that is why NFL instituted a floor for salary cap spending. Mainly due to Bengal's frugal ways.
Golden*Wheels Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I don't know that having huge coaching and training staff actually leads to wins or success...but the one time I saw an article on it many years back, we were ahead of only team so far as total # of coaches/trainers, the Bengals. Whose owner is not generally known for his freespendin' ways. I got the general feeling anywhere he could be cheap in regards to the team, he was. In the end I choose to look back at the good (the team is still in Buffalo) because the rest doesn't matter any more. Edited March 30, 2018 by Golden*Wheels
QCity Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 24 minutes ago, cba fan said: He killed any chance of providing a winning team for over a decade with his "cash to crap policy" Nonsense. This accounting decision had very little to do with the playoff drought.
klos63 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 3 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: Scroll to the 35 minute mark http://buffalonews.com/2018/03/21/tim-graham-show-a-conversation-about-interviewing-o-j-simpson/ Again another cheap plug for the Tim Graham show. This show contains audio excerpts from his interview with OJ Simpson. One clip features OJ saying that Ralph wasn't interested in winning in Buffalo because it would mean he'd have to give players raises. He later claimed that once he made his money from the NFL, he changed his mind around the time that Polian was running things. Jerry Sullivan though says that Ralph Wilson was always a cheap owner. While he spent money on players during the salary cap era, he was notoriously frugal when it came to coaches and general managers. Sully even claimed that he called Ralph a "cheapskate" in one article and he refused to talk to him again. LOL. Sully said that Ralph didn't believe any coach or GM was smarter than his and so he didn't believe in paying them. Graham said that Ralph would pay people who "filled seats," like OJ and the Electric Company. This also would account for Ralph's alleged fondness for drafting running backs very high in the draft - to fill seats. This is what makes Ralph Wilson somewhat complicated. On one hand, you have to admire him bringing a team to Buffalo and keeping in the area. While there is some debate, at worst, Ralph made a possible move after his death, a little more challenging than what it could have been. There's also the charitable aspect that he's made to the community and the fact the he seemed like a genuine person. For that I admire him. But what Sully says is fairly spot on for the majority of Ralph's career - with the exception on Tom Donahoe in 2001. He gave him some pretty money and more importantly control of the organization. Things went horribly wrong both from a football and administration standpoint and after Donahoe's firing, it was back to cheap coaches and GM's that Ralph felt "safe" with. In my opinion, this perhaps was the biggest reason for the Bills 17 year drought. Ralph was reluctant to give the money and power to competent people to run football operations. In researching this topic, I came across a great article in Pro Football talk from 7 years ago which further supports what Sully was saying: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/01/bills-decision-to-hire-nix-draws-criticism/ “The Buffalo hire is a joke and a slap in the face to all hard working people in the NFL,” the source said. “The Bills have not been to the playoffs in over 10 years and that run will continue for years to come. The owner has made three hires in a row that shows he only cares about mediocrity. “Bills fans can rest assured that, a year from now, two years from now, and three and four years from now, the team will still be in last place in the AFC East. The Jets, Patriots, and Dolphins continue to make moves to get better while the Bills just tread water. There are good people who were very interested in that job, like Dave Gettelman, Scott Studwell and Doug Whaley that never got a chance. All those guys could have helped that team. The best hope for Bills fans is that the owner decides to sell the team and then someone who cares about winning takes over and brings in qualified people.” Ouch! Ironically everything in this article pretty much came to fruition. Again, Wilson is a complicated figure. You love what he did from a humanistic standpoint - but no so much from a football standpoint. Don't know why this needs to be brought up now. Yes, Ralph was a below average owner and had a below average team most of his time as owner. Anyone alive during his whole tenure would have realized this long ago. He's gone and it's history, let him rest in peace. He wasn't a bad person, just not a good owner.
Ittakestime Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Expensive doesn't necessarily mean better. Look at how much Pegula spend on Rex. I'm almost sure McDermott was probably half.
Lurker Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, K-9 said: Rauch, Saban, Knox, Levy all among the highest paid coaches of their eras. Link? That's not what I recall to any degree... Here's a blurb from Knox's autobiography: https://247sports.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/Article/Chuck-Knox-The-Last-Hard-Man-Part-Two-104245798 ”Ralph Wilson was a non-meddler, all right. He had ignored this team right to the edge of chaos. Correct that. They had long since passed chaos.” – Chuck Knox "Knox’ Bills played to type – a team in upheaval with dissatisfied players and less-than-optimal ownership that desperately needed leadership. Knox was to provide that leadership again. He first unloaded an unhappy O.J. Simpson on the San Francisco 49ers in a groundbreaking trade which gave Buffalo the draft picks that would later, through use or trade, acquire running back Joe Cribbs and Hall of Fame quarterback Jim Kelly. In his five years in Buffalo, Knox created a two-time playoff team from a moribund franchise with a pathetic scouting department and an absentee owner. And it all ended, incredibly, when Wilson refused to give Knox a raise after the 1982 season." Or this blurb, which puts Marv's 1990 salary of $300,000 into context: https://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/08/sports/football-owners-salaries-focus-of-nfl-trial.html "The highest-paid coach in 1990 was Jimmy Johnson of Dallas, who was paid $1.433 million. That was Johnson's second year as an N.F.L. coach and followed a 1-15 year as a rookie. Miami's Don Shula was second, at just under $1.1 million, about $100,000 less than what San Francisco's Bill Walsh was paid in his final season, 1988, when he won his third Super Bowl." Edited March 30, 2018 by Lurker
K-9 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, cba fan said: They did not employ the talent restricting "cash to cap policy" like Ralph and Bills did. Only teams that did employ it inadvertently were the misers in Cincinnati and Cleveland. If you remember that is why NFL instituted a floor for salary cap spending. Mainly due to Bengal's frugal ways. Talent restricting? Inadvertent employment? Misers in Cincy and Cleveland? Sound like selective reasoning to underscore a point. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City used cash to cap accounting methodology, regardless. Ironically, that's essentially what the last CBA forces all teams to do given the cap floors mandated. But that's another discussion.
cba fan Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, K-9 said: Talent restricting? Inadvertent employment? Misers in Cincy and Cleveland? Sound like selective reasoning to underscore a point. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City used cash to cap accounting methodology, regardless. Ironically, that's essentially what the last CBA forces all teams to do given the cap floors mandated. But that's another discussion. no Pitt and KC never self restricted themselves like Ralph did. They never applied all money spent yearly(regardless if it amortized in forward years like sign bonus)to cap limit like Bills did. For most it would not matter as most teams bring forward money not spent to cap in year 1 and bring it to yr 2 and regardless spend it eventually in the future. Bills did not do this during the "cash to crap" period. Ralph just pocketed the profit and started at zero the next year again. Yes the cap floor is all money spent in a given year to appease NFLPU thinking they are holding back cash to player salaries on any given year. None of that matters now as all money is brought forward onto the next year that was not spent the last year. So it all gets to the players eventually. Bills, Bengals, and Browns, did not forward the money and just pocketed the profit. This led to the salary cap floor instituted. Edited March 30, 2018 by cba fan
BADOLBILZ Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, K-9 said: Rauch, Saban, Knox, Levy all among the highest paid coaches of their eras. Mr. Wilson had no problem paying for demonstrated results. If anyone cares to research which owner had the most highest paid players at their respective positions over the years, they may be surprised. We've also had a couple of the highest paid players, period, as well. Including OJ, ironically. Nobody is claiming Mr. Wilson wasn't tight with the purse strings or that he didn't insist on operating within a prescribed budget year to year, but he was hardly the miser some have claimed over the years, either. Ralph wanted to win on the field but wasn't committed to it. Where he was committed to winning was at owners meetings. If he wasn't fielding a SB competitor his next objective was to show big profits at the owners meetings. He was always football-dumb but as he aged the old drunks and weirdos and over-extended financially or uncommitted-to-winning owners that he used to be superior to died or sold out. It was then that his football stupidity REALLY undermined him. Even parity couldn't help when he was simultaneously making dumb management decisions......meddling in personnel(specifically first round picks)......and trying to stash away $30M per year for estate purposes. He was totally overmatched with the current group of owners. A debt-free depression era "squirrel it away for a rainy day" mentality in a room full of aggressive "spend money to make money" new owners. 2
K-9 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lurker said: Link? This not what I recall to any degree... Might take some digging. Do you recall that the Steelers were also after Rauch as well at the time and would have hired him over Knoll if he didn't sign with Buffalo? Mr. Wilson had to pay him to get him here and I believe only Shula and Ewbank made more as AFL coaches at the time. Rauch's winning percentage was staggering, after all. I thought Saban II, Knox, and Levy II were common knowledge in terms of their top 5 salaries. I'll see what I can find, though.
Like A Mofo Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 There was a thread created here recently about the Buffalo Bills 'biggest Free Agent Bust' contact ever given. Given the longevity of the Buffalo franchise, one would think many names would come to mind. After Derrick Dockery which was the going away pick and for good reason, the other names selected were ranging from guys who were cut to hanging on in the NFL to borderline average players. There is a reason it is hard to think of many players who were severely overpaid here as a FA like Dockery. It is a clear indicator that Ralph. for the most part, was 'cheap' compared to almost all of his peer NFL owners.
Helpmenow Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Ask jimmy Braxton who blocked for Oj. RIP 34. wilson wouldn’t pony up for jimmy back in the day
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 The League changed, not Ralph. Ralph was an honest man.
dpberr Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 3 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said: Remember when the Bills covered 15% of the stadium renovation and upgrade costs in 2012? So yes, they did indeed take a "cash infusion" from NY State & the county. They have been subsidized by taxpayers for years. It's best to keep that in mind when you throw around terms like "well run business" and "little long term debt". Eh. You're trying to mix in standard NFL business practice (handouts and subsidies) to defend your point of view. What's principle #1 of owning any business? Don't spend your own money if someone is willing to spend theirs. If you can cite an NFL franchise that isn't taking money from the government, you'll have to let me know. In regards to the stadium renovations, the Bills don't own the asset, Erie County does. Would you fund out of your own pocket 85% of the cost of renovations to your rental home when you're not the landlord? Erie County paid for renovations to its own asset. Should they have paid 85%? No. The Bills never required an emergency or desperate infusion of cash to keep the business in Buffalo nor is the franchise anchored by long term capital debt like the Cowboys, Jets and Giants are. Wilson didn't layoff employees routinely like you see today just to improve his margins. The Forbes data that's published yearly on the valuation of the franchises attests to this. I'm not saying he was the NFL's greatest owner or that he was even a "good" owner. I just don't think he's a "cheap" one like Art Modell or the "Kens" from the 90s Seahawks, the Bidwells or the Irsays.
Lurker Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 36 minutes ago, K-9 said: Might take some digging. Do you recall that the Steelers were also after Rauch as well at the time and would have hired him over Knoll if he didn't sign with Buffalo? Mr. Wilson had to pay him to get him here and I believe only Shula and Ewbank made more as AFL coaches at the time. Rauch's winning percentage was staggering, after all. I thought Saban II, Knox, and Levy II were common knowledge in terms of their top 5 salaries. I'll see what I can find, though. Here are a couple of tidbits on Marv: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/03/05/Bills-give-Levy-contract-extension/2146668149200/ "Levy, 62, had two seasons remaining on a contract he signed in 1989, and estimates are that his annual salary increased from $300,000 to about $500,000." http://buffalonews.com/1992/07/08/bills-11th-in-profits-for-1989-financial-data-disclosed-at-trial/ "Other interesting tidbits from the financial statements were the 1990 salaries of Bills head coach Marv Levy ($322,917) and Polian ($296,000). It is known that both have received substantial pay increases since. Thanks to the Bills' Super Bowl appearances the past two seasons, Levy now receives about $700,000 from the team, while Polian is above $500,000. Jimmy Johnson of Dallas was the NFL's top-paid head coach two years ago at $1.4 million, while Philadelphia's Buddy Ryan was at the bottom of the list at $298,000."
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