I'm Spartacus Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I think Ralph was pretty cheap. I think Ralph was good to Buffalo and the community & charities. I think Jerry Sullivan is an a-hole. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Ralph is the sole reason the Bills are still in Buffalo. He never was shy on spending on players. Anyone who says different is full of it. He certainly struggled with trusting people but I’d blame Polian (I won’t like a guy if he called my daughter the c word either) or TD (who was given full control and was awful). There’s a reason why Ralph is in the Hall of Fame and has a statue built and why Sullivan will be forget/ slightly remember as the miserable guy who went down in a dying medium (and I love newspapers). Ralph spent money on players.....when he had to because of the salary cap. You know, you can be appreciate of Ralph's generosity and question some of the decisions he made which ultimately resulted in failure. 3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Hmmm...Ralph was cheap - who knew! Read this thread...some members here are arguing that he was NOT cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: The Bills were criticized by Rosenthal (and, as I recall, Peter King) for not hiring Doug Whaley when we hired Buddy Nix to be GM. But Nix quickly hired Whaley, Whaley eventually took over the reins, and then failed. The media gurus aren't always right. Another note, I don't recall the exact number buy the Bills won about 46% of their games over the years with Wilson as the owner. Something was clearly going wrong. The argument that he was cheap with GMs and coaches makes some sense. But Wilson kept the team in Buffalo and gave tons of money to charity. For that, he has my respect. I’m probably in the minority but I’m not sure Whaley failed. I think he couldn’t find the right qb (and a FA qb he signed just for traded for a high 3rd rounder). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: I’m probably in the minority but I’m not sure Whaley failed. I think he couldn’t find the right qb (and a FA qb he signed just for traded for a high 3rd rounder). Which means he failed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloRush said: Ralph spent money on players.....when he had to because of the salary cap. You know, you can be appreciate of Ralph's generosity and question some of the decisions he made which ultimately resulted in failure. Read this thread...some members here are arguing that he was NOT cheap Um, what about the SB years when there was no cap? I was super young but I don’t think Kelly, Bruce, Thurman, Reed, etc were cheap. Just now, BuffaloRush said: Which means he failed You’re one of those black and white mindset people. No point in discussing it with you. Enjoy your Jerry Sullivan thread. Super topical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BuffaloRush said: Read this thread...some members here are arguing that he was NOT cheap I've been on the board for a while now, trust me Ralph is Cheap has been well covered. Sure some are arguing he wasn't; but there are still people who say EJ needed more time or that TT just needed a better supporting cast.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I think the OP is way off on this topic but I respect his or her opinion nonetheless. As I stated in another thread on the board, I consider the "Ralph is cheap" conspiracy theory to be the "flat earth" of Bills conspiracy theories. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, some people will still believe it nonetheless. There are three tendencies I feel fans seem to fall into when debating this theory: 1. Mediocre staff hires, free agents and on-field product doesn't necessarily mean "cheap", frugal use of resources but perhaps exceptionally poor decision making. There isn't anything cheap about firing guys in the middle of their contracts, bringing on free agents who don't perform or poor performance dragging the value of the investment down every year. Do you think Ralph Wilson went out of his way to deliberately have the lowest rated franchise in the NFL? Do you think he paid Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker all that money because he wanted their poor performance in return? 2. Only viewing the Buffalo Bills through on-field performance only, forgetting or ignoring it is a business that invests in the community. The Bills were a well-run business, despite the challenges of poor performance and an aging stadium with little long term debt. The team was never insolvent or desperately needing a new city or new partners to be profitable. The team never came to NY state needing a desperate cash infusion just to keep the lights on. You never saw the hundreds of Bills employees being laid off en masse. 3. Wilson's fight against numerous CBAs was simply because *he* didn't want to pay players. IMO, it was more about keeping his small-market business (Bills) and our team (Bills) competitive as much as possible in a league dominated by far larger, far wealthier businesses. Ralph Wilson may not have been the most shrewd business owner in the NFL or remotely the best at making decisions. I think he was an owner who was totally unprepared for and always two steps behind the disruption the free-agency era NFL created. However, I just don't see the evidence he was a cheap owner. I certainly don't believe OJ Simpson's opine on it nor Jerry Sullivan's XXL-sized axe he's been ambitiously grinding for the last two decades. Edited March 30, 2018 by dpberr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevyVanMiller Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: He kept the team in Buffalo and poison pilled the lease so drunk Kraft wouldn't notice. He operated from low liquidity compared to the Jones's andMcNairs of the world. He gave $900M to charity upon his death. Cheap. Right. Sullivan is a low life. The poison pill in the lease is the single greatest reason that Ralph should be revered forever in Buffalo. Without it, the Bills move and never return. Long live the memory of Ralph Wilson! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 In his later years, as Ralph was aging, I believe Littman had more and more say in the day to day operations post-Donahoe. And Littman was poison. Ralph believed in paying players, although he was a tough negotiator, but coaches? Well, let's look. HIs first was Buster Ramsey due to his ties to the Lions, then Lou, which as a pretty good choice. Then Joe Collier, a great DC but not a good HC (which happens a lot). Then Rauch, who had success with the Raiders, a logical hire at the time, but who would have believed he'd decide to use OJ as a decoy, so he was terrible. Then back to Lou, and that was a good move. But Lou being Lou, he decided to get pissed off and left. Then who? Ringo, bad. Chuck Knox - a good hire. Then the abyss of Stephenson and Bullough, both bad hires to be sure. Then the glory years of Marv. Then Wade, a guy that was OK as HC but a much better coordinator. Then bright young coordinator in Williams, again an example of a good coordinator/bad HC. Mularkey, the same. Jauron, the same. Gailey, the same. So you can say overall Ralph's record in getting HCs was at best spotty. But because he was cheap? Maybe, maybe not. Ralph always was a tough negotiator. But to me more that until you put coordinators in a HC position you never know if they will cut it or not. As far as his overall influence on WNY, the legacy he left by ensuring the BIlls stayed here, his charitable contributions , and all, those should and will never be forgotten. Ralph will go down as one of, if not the most, influential men in the history of WNY. And if the criticism of him was ignited by an OJ interview, pardon me if I get a bit ticked at that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, dpberr said: The Bills were a well-run business, despite the challenges of poor performance, with little long term debt. The team was never insolvent or desperately needing a new city or new partners to be profitable. The team never came to NY state needing a desperate cash infusion just to keep the lights on. You never saw the hundreds of Bills employees being laid off en masse. Remember when the Bills covered 15% of the stadium renovation and upgrade costs in 2012? So yes, they did indeed take a "cash infusion" from NY State & the county. They have been subsidized by taxpayers for years. It's best to keep that in mind when you throw around terms like "well run business" and "little long term debt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, dpberr said: I think the OP is way off on this topic but I respect his or her opinion nonetheless. As I stated in another thread on the board, I consider the "Ralph is cheap" conspiracy theory to be the "flat earth" of Bills conspiracy theories. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, some people will still believe it nonetheless. There are three tendencies I feel fans seem to fall into when debating this theory: 1. Mediocre staff hires, free agents and on-field product doesn't necessarily mean "cheap", frugal use of resources but perhaps exceptionally poor decision making. There isn't anything cheap about firing guys in the middle of their contracts, bringing on free agents who don't perform or poor performance dragging the value of the investment down every year. Do you think Ralph Wilson went out of his way to deliberately have the lowest rated franchise in the NFL? Do you think he paid Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker all that money because he wanted their poor performance in return? 2. Only viewing the Buffalo Bills through on-field performance only, forgetting or ignoring it is a business that invests in the community. The Bills were a well-run business, despite the challenges of poor performance and an aging stadium with little long term debt. The team was never insolvent or desperately needing a new city or new partners to be profitable. The team never came to NY state needing a desperate cash infusion just to keep the lights on. You never saw the hundreds of Bills employees being laid off en masse. 3. Wilson's fight against numerous CBAs was simply because *he* didn't want to pay players. IMO, it was more about keeping his small-market business (Bills) and our team (Bills) competitive as much as possible in a league dominated by far larger, far wealthier businesses. Ralph Wilson may not have been the most shrewd business owner in the NFL or remotely the best at making decisions. I think he was an owner who was totally unprepared for and always two steps behind the disruption the free-agency era NFL created. However, I just don't see the evidence he was a cheap owner. I certainly don't believe OJ Simpson's opine on it nor Jerry Sullivan's XXL-sized axe he's been ambitiously grinding for the last two decades. Well said pal. The only thing I might argue is point #1. Don't you think that money (and control) was a factor in the people he empowered to make those decisions. It certainly seems as thought it was that way with hiring Marv Levy, Russ Brandon and Buddy Nix as GM. Also in the retaining of Dick Jauron about 2 years longer than he should have and the underwhelming hire of Chan Gailey. I think money certainly was a factor. As Sully argued, I don't think you can cite player contracts during the salary cap era as proof that Ralph spent money. He spent money because he had to. He'd be wasting money if he didn't. 9 minutes ago, ChevyVanMiller said: The poison pill in the lease is the single greatest reason that Ralph should be revered forever in Buffalo. Without it, the Bills move and never return. Long live the memory of Ralph Wilson! Yep, in the end he wanted to team to stay in Buffalo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Um, what about the SB years when there was no cap? I was super young but I don’t think Kelly, Bruce, Thurman, Reed, etc were cheap. While it pains me to support Sully's argument, I'd agree that Ralph didn't like to spend money on the front office or other organizational aspects of the team. He'd pay up for proven players, like the HOF guys you mention, but even then it was like pulling teeth. Andre's contract fights with the team were legendary. What's most galling is how little faith Ralph put in paying for coaching talent. Chuck Knox was the only time he really broke down and signed a name guy who could've had his pick of NFL jobs. The lack of quality coaching magnified the weak rosters we fielded during multiple runs of mediocrity. As far as GMs, Ralph lucked into Polian, so he gets no credit for that hire from me. At the end of the day, it's clear that Ralph was an odd duck. In his younger years he was very mercurial and always seemed to be battling with someone. He mellowed in his old age and became a lot closer to the players and day-to-day aspects of the team. Still, his greatest achievement was simply keeping the team in Buffalo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 39 minutes ago, GG said: Wilson discovered that as long as he maintained a minimum viable product in Buffalo, he was guaranteed to clear $30mm/yr. That's why he was never going to move the franchise. He couldn't get away with that anywhere else. And it wasn't complicated..........he didn't have to jump thru a lot of hoops like a lot of the younger/new owners were doing in other markets. Just put Russ on the spin-job and stack cheez to cover the inheritance tax. And then when the franchise value appreciated so crazily because all the new/young owners were working their asses off to make the group richer and he no longer had to worry about the inheritance tax...........he took that money he accumulated at the expense of fan suffering and donated it to charity in his name. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 By the way, I once got an infraction on the Old Buffalo Bills Message Board for calling Ralph a "cheapskate." Probably from @T&C Good riddance BBMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da webster guy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 29 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said: I think Ralph was pretty cheap. I think Ralph was good to Buffalo and the community & charities. I think Jerry Sullivan is an a-hole. Yes, and they both stayed in their jobs far too long. As Kenny Rogers says, You've Gotta Know When to Fold Em. They never listened to Kenny (although Jerry loves the chicken) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said: You might be right. But the fact remains that Ralph had opportunities to move the Bills to more lucrative markets. He kept the team in Buffalo and toward the end of his life, made a deal with Erie County and local politicians which would have made it hard to relocate. I honestly believe that as the end was coming near, Ralph did want the team to stay in Buffalo. If you read what I wrote, I gave Ralph a lot of credit for his contributions to the community. Yes, I did criticize the way that he ran the Bills toward the end of his ownership and when you look at the product that he put out post 2000, I believe that criticism is warranted If you believe that any owner can just drop his team into any city whenever he wants (or wanted) to, then you would believe that Ralph would have moved his team to some "more lucrative market". But as GG says, Ralph knew his best money play was always to stayhight where he was. He had guaranteed himself a new stadium, then a stadium renovation--paid for by Erie County. He had no debt--just a guaranteed income courtesy of the popularity of the league that his teams did not significantly contribute to but for a brief stint in the early 90's. Edited March 30, 2018 by Mr. WEO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 51 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: He operated from low liquidity compared to the Jones's andMcNairs of the world. People conveniently forget this point. Ralph didn’t have “f—k you” money to throw around like those types of owners. and he certainly didn’t marry and stumble into it like Bob Kraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, Lurker said: While it pains me to support Sully's argument, I'd agree that Ralph didn't like to spend money on the front office or other organizational aspects of the team. He'd pay up for proven players, like the HOF guys you mention, but even then it was like pulling teeth. Andre's contract fights with the team were legendary. What's most galling is how little faith Ralph put in paying for coaching talent. Chuck Knox was the only time he really broke down and signed a name guy who could've had his pick of NFL jobs. The lack of quality coaching magnified the weak rosters we fielded during multiple runs of mediocrity. As far as GMs, Ralph lucked into Polian, so he gets no credit for that hire from me. At the end of the day, it's clear that Ralph was an odd duck. In his younger years he was very mercurial and always seemed to be battling with someone. He mellowed in his old age and became a lot closer to the players and day-to-day aspects of the team. Still, his greatest achievement was simply keeping the team in Buffalo... So hires you didn't like you criticize but good hires were just luck? O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, jimmy10 said: People conveniently forget this point. Ralph didn’t have “f—k you” money to throw around like those types of owners. and he certainly didn’t marry and stumble into it like Bob Kraft. So the fact that he put out an inferior product for 2 years is justifiable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Ralph kept a team in town for affordable prices The city was hurting horribly economically for most of his run Many thanks for keeping it affordable, Ralph no secret though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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