thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 39 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said: Allen averaged a putrid 4.4 ypa vs power 5 teams. He has NO consistent Anticipation Accuracy Awareness Timing Most importantly these problems stem from the internal clock in his head that's borderline unteachable on any level. The mental part of the gm is the most important factor in playing QB at a high level. He just doesn't have it. He's a project QB at best and because of his arm strength should go starting in the 3rd rd. But obviously there's coaches and GMs that think they can fix em and they will reach high and take him early in the 1st. Whomever that team is there front office will not last long Allen will cost them there jobs. Have you watched him extensively? A lot of what you're saying isn't true. 1
Mark80 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, NewDayBills said: Allen is going to be a great QB, I think Rudolph will be an above average starter too. Both players get criticized wrongfully IMO. People will defend players like Lamar Jackson with his whopping 13 points, to bad there isn't an affirmative action for wonderlic tests. Meanwhile Allen and Rudolph triple Jackson's score yet people still defend the guy when intellectually he can't compete with 99% of the QBs in this class but yeah, keep criticizing Allen and Rudolph. If you are going to blast someone's intelligence, perhaps know the difference between two, to, and too. You're also missing a period or semicolon in the last sentence. Just sayin'. Edited March 30, 2018 by Mark80
stuvian Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 I think Allen is benefitting from the Carson Wentz effect
NastyNateSoldiers Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, thebandit27 said: Have you watched him extensively? A lot of what you're saying isn't true. Its definitely true i watched enough. Allen plays like he's in some school yard playing with his buddies. He's always leaving the pocket way to early and u can tell the play is not called for a roll-out. He has no anticipation whatsoever waiting for Wrs to come open before passing the ball way to often. And the accuracy well u don't have to spend more then 5mins watching film to see that he's not accurate . Allen is the white Cardele Jones but without the accolades. Edited March 30, 2018 by NastyNateSoldiers 1
purple haze Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 5 hours ago, NewDayBills said: Jackson completed how many of his passes? I honestly have a hard time thinking that any QB in the draft scored lower on the wonderlic than Jackson. It shows that he will never be a pocket QB that will dissect you with his arm, first sign of trouble he is going to make a run for it. Oh yeah, don't even get me started on how he picked his mom to be his agent, that is beyond stupid. He is 22 years old and has his mommy do everything for him still. The fact that he doesn't have an NFL agent shows a complete lack of judgement for an athlete playing the most intellectually demanding positions in sports. Teams can't even schedule a dinner with him. The fact that you have him above Allen is downright hysterical. At this point I don't even want to draft Jackson period, not even in the 2nd-3rd round. Your posts show me three things: Your comprehension is off. You are tied to the Wonderlic as an indicator when it's not. You don't watch Jackson play. 1. He is not a run first QB. He does not run at the first "sign of trouble" as you seem to need to believe. He stays in the pocket and tries to make the throws. Although he can and will run. 2. He has already stated he represents himself. Not his mother. He also stated why he is representing himself. What teams can't get hold of him? All teams who just saw him at his Pro Day? I wonder if there are a few teams that continue to want him to work out as a WR. Maybe he doesn't call them back? Maybe agents don't like a precedent being set for rookies to think about repping themselves and whisper to the media about "issues"?With money slotted by draft position it's not out of the realm of logic to represent one's self. Come draft time Jackson will probably be drafted mid to late first round same as he would have if he had an agent. Although he should just go on and run and do the other testing drills. 3. I never said I had Jackson above Allen. You said that. I said Jackson is more accomplished against a higher level of competition. That's not even a question. Allen's accuracy percentage is challenged in the same way Jackson's is, but against a consistently lower level of competition. That's another fact. It is also a fact Jackson's WR's had a high drop rate; higher than Allen's WR's by good percentage. Allen's qualifications are his physical make up, an otherworldly strong throwing arm and vast potential if he puts everything together. Those qualifications will put him high in the first round, but compared to Jackson's real accomplishments at the collegiate level, Allen is the affirmative action draftee. And I still wouldn't mind seeing him in a Bills uniform at all because he does have qualifications for the gig and they are enticing. What is hysterical is you talk about Jackson's completion percentage but ignore Allen's being lower. What is hysterical is you talk Wonderlic scores being an indicator of future success and ignore the fact that one of the greatest QBs in NFL history and the greatest QB in Bills franchise history scored 15 on the test. Please give your keyboard a rest.
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said: Its definitely true i watched enough. Allen plays like he's in some school yard playing with his buddies. He's always leaving the pocket way to early and u can tell the play is not called for a roll-out. He has no anticipation whatsoever waiting for Wrs to come open before passing the ball way to often. And the accuracy well u don't have to spend more then 5mins watching film to see that he's not accurate . Allen is the white Cardele Jones but without the accolades. You might want to watch a bit more; I've done extensive breakdowns on the kid on this very board, and a lot of this just isn't supported by his tape IMO 1
NastyNateSoldiers Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: You might want to watch a bit more; I've done extensive breakdowns on the kid on this very board, and a lot of this just isn't supported by his tape IMO I haven't watched all his gms but I'm not impressed with what I've seen. He doesn't deserve to be a 1st rd pk in my opinion. I pray everyday we don't trade up for this guy it would be monumental mistake. 1
HappyDays Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You might want to watch a bit more; I've done extensive breakdowns on the kid on this very board, and a lot of this just isn't supported by his tape IMO Just curious, what were your evaluations like for similar QBs - Manuel, Lynch, Hackenburg, etc. Has Allen separated himself from these prospects for any particular reason or do you just tend to like that style of QB?
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Just now, HappyDays said: Just curious, what were your evaluations like for similar QBs - Manuel, Lynch, Hackenburg, etc. Has Allen separated himself from these prospects for any particular reason or do you just tend to like that style of QB? I had EJ as my QB1 that year and a borderline 1st round pick (mostly based on positional value). In another year, he probably would've been a day 2 guy for me. Hack got a Day 2 grade from me, and I had Lynch as a 3rd round guy--just not my cup of tea. For me, Allen is a better player than those guys. Set aside the obvious arm talent; Allen is a better athlete than those guys, and IMO he is a far better downfield passer than any of those dudes. He also doesn't have the inability to pull the trigger the way those guys did. I also like that he hangs in there and delivers strikes despite being getting killed on a regular basis, and that he manages to hit big plays despite inferior WR talent. In general, if you visit my QB thread you'll see my take on Allen, but to answer your question: no, I don't have a specific QB style. 2
Figster Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Just curious, what were your evaluations like for similar QBs - Manuel, Lynch, Hackenburg, etc. Has Allen separated himself from these prospects for any particular reason or do you just tend to like that style of QB? Josh Allen from a wonderlic standpoint is the smartest QB in the draft class with by far the strongest arm and an ability to hit small windows of opportunity because of it. Is Allen a project, absolutely and why we have McCarron. Allen is our guy...
Dr. Who Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 24 minutes ago, Figster said: Josh Allen from a wonderlic standpoint is the smartest QB in the draft class with by far the strongest arm and an ability to hit small windows of opportunity because of it. Is Allen a project, absolutely and why we have McCarron. Allen is our guy... He might be, but the Browns could take him 1 overall; Giants could conceivably take him. I doubt he falls. You probably need to swing a deal for 2 to get him if Cleveland goes with Darnold. 1
Figster Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Dr. Who said: He might be, but the Browns could take him 1 overall; Giants could conceivably take him. I doubt he falls. You probably need to swing a deal for 2 to get him if Cleveland goes with Darnold. unfortunately, Reminds me of Newton , thought we had our guy until he climbed to the top, hate it when that happens doc... 1
MJS Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, NewDayBills said: Allen is going to be a great QB, I think Rudolph will be an above average starter too. Both players get criticized wrongfully IMO. People will defend players like Lamar Jackson with his whopping 13 points, to bad there isn't an affirmative action for wonderlic tests. Meanwhile Allen and Rudolph triple Jackson's score yet people still defend the guy when intellectually he can't compete with 99% of the QBs in this class but yeah, keep criticizing Allen and Rudolph. If only Allen could throw an accurate pass.
buffalobloodfloridahome Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 4 hours ago, WideRightRevenge said: Check this out .. granted a couple of years old ... but kind of tells a lot I think in terms of scores for the position ... Jackson's score doesn't help him when compared to below. Didn't know Tyrod's score till I pulled this. Not sure if connected ... but could illustrate why he couldn't see beyond the first receiver in a progression? Arizona Cardinals Carson Palmer USC 2003 (1) 26 Atlanta Falcons Matt Ryan Boston College 2008 (3) 32 Baltimore Ravens Joe Flacco Delaware 2008 (18) 27 Buffalo Bills Tyrod Taylor Virginia Tech 2011 (180) 15 Carolina Panthers Cam Newton Auburn 2011 (1) 21 Chicago Bears Jimmy Clausen Notre Dame 2010 (48) 23 Cincinnati Bengals Andy Dalton TCU 2011 (35) 29 Cleveland Browns Josh McCown Sam Houston State 2002 (81) 30 Dallas Cowboys Brandon Weeden Oklahoma State 2012 (22) 27 Denver Broncos Peyton Manning Tennessee 1998 (1) 28 Detroit Lions Matthew Stafford Georgia 2009 (1) 38 Green Bay Packers Aaron Rodgers Cal 2005 (24) 35 Houston Texans Ryan Mallett Arkansas 2011 (74) 26 Indianapolis Colts Andrew Luck Stanford 2012 (1) 37 Jacksonville Jaguars Blake Bortles UCF 2014 (3) 28 Kansas City Chiefs Alex Smith Utah 2005 (1) 40 Miami Dolphins Ryan Tannehill Texas A&M 2012 (8) 34 Minnesota Vikings Teddy Bridgewater Louisville 2014 (32) 20 New England Patriots Tom Brady University of Michigan 2000 (199) 33 New Orleans Saints Drew Brees Louisiana Tech 2004 (106) 28 New York Giants Eli Manning Ole Miss 2004 (1) 39 New York Jets Ryan Fitzpatrick Harvard 2005 (250) 48 Oakland Raiders Derek Carr Fresno State 2014 (36) 20 Philadelphia Eagles Sam Bradford Oklahoma 2010 (1) 36 Pittsburgh Steelers Michael Vick Virginia Tech 2001 (1) 20 San Diego Chargers Philip Rivers NC State 2004 (4) 30 San Francisco 49ers Colin Kaepernick Nevada 2011 (36) 37 Seattle Seahawks Russell Wilson Wisconsin 2012 (75) 28 St. Louis Rams Nick Foles Arizona 2012 (88) 29 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jameis Winston Florida State 2015 (1) 27 Tennessee Titans Marcus Mariota Oregon 2015 (2) 33 Washington Redskins Kirk Cousins Michigan State 2012 (102) 33 I read somewhere that most good QB's have a score of at least 25 and that's really the bar they are looking for. I see Cam and Derek Carr are both below that and may be the exception to the rule. They also stated that anything above 25 really didn't seem to make any difference on whether they performed better.
starrymessenger Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) Smokescreen. I would not be surprised if the Bills really like Allen. They were not trying for the #3 spot to draft Lamar. You need to have a view on whether Allen can clean up his mechanical/technical issues (my guess is he can) and whether he has or can develop pocket presence (idk the answer to that question). But if you have reasonable enuf confidence to think that the answers may be positive then you are looking at a guy who belongs at or near the top of the draft. Edited March 30, 2018 by starrymessenger
Mat68 Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 When I watch Allen's games I do not see an erratic thrower of the football. He makes a handful of NFL level throws every game and puts them on the money. Throws the other prospect have not and some can not make. He is a once a generation talent. He is not a finish product. He also seems to have improved the areas in his footwork that at times made him throw inaccurate when he was not in balance. Same can be said about footwork with every prospect not named Rosen. Imo Beane will see a Newton caliber of athlete and potential. If Allen does not go 1 that is the guy they will move up for. There is a chance Rosen or Mayfeild will be there at 4 and would come at a fraction of the price of 2. When you are forgoing multiple prospects for a QB if they have all the tools and are the type of prospect that come around once every 7 years years interns of ability and potential I think that is the type of prospect to take that chance with. 2
BillsMafioso Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: He might be, but the Browns could take him 1 overall; Giants could conceivably take him. I doubt he falls. You probably need to swing a deal for 2 to get him if Cleveland goes with Darnold. I disagree. I think it's likely that Allen falls. As stated before, he is a Project. Look whos picking in the top 5...all head coaches who are on the hotseat (besides giants). Edited March 30, 2018 by BillsMafioso
Dr. Who Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BillsMafioso said: I disagree. I think it's likely that Allen falls. As stated before, he is a Project. Look whos picking in the top 5...all head coaches who are on the hotseat (besides giants). Still think the Browns might like him and are okay with Tyrod for a year or two. Giants might take him with Eli starting for a year or two. Broncos have Keesum who could start for a couple of years. It's all guesswork and he might fall, but I think his potential will induce a high pick from someone. 1
BillsMafioso Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Still think the Browns might like him and are okay with Tyrod for a year or two. Giants might take him with Eli starting for a year or two. Broncos have Keesum who could start for a couple of years. It's all guesswork and he might fall, but I think his potential will induce a high pick from someone. But by this very logic, with the Browns, Jets (they'll draft Rosen or Mayfield), and Broncos all having coaches surely out if THIS year goes wrong, how does it make sense to invest a top 5 pick at a position where the "hole" has been filled for the next "year or two". #1 priority of all Head coaches - Save my job I agree...its all completely random. Just sharing my thoughts Edited March 30, 2018 by BillsMafioso
Dr. Who Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BillsMafioso said: But by this very logic, with the Browns, Jets, and Broncos all having coaches surely out if this year goes wrong, how does it make sense to invest a top 5 pick at a position where the "hole" has been filled for the next "year or two". I agree...its all completely random. Just sharing my thoughts Don't see the Jets taking Allen. I think the owner and new GM in Cleveland may value Allen. I don't think Hue Jackson will determine that pick. Giants may reasonably think they are unlikely to be at 2 again any time soon and it is a good opportunity to draft Eli's eventual successor. If Elway sees himself in Allen, he may pull the trigger. Of course, this is all speculation. Edited March 30, 2018 by Dr. Who
Recommended Posts