QBs, NFL Draft, Identity Politics (New Poster)

[BadLandsMeanie]

1 hour ago, CamboBill said:

You are coming across more than a little thick. This is a football forum, I have raised identity politics in the context of the NFL  ... and more specifically the Bills, the recent ouster of their black QB, the level of vitriol towards him by so many on this board. , and parallel outlooks and stereotypes  as to the only higher rated Black and Jewish QB prospects in the draft this year..

 

This should not be too hard for you to follow.

 

As to your continued and irrelevant comments about Cambodia ... I have encouraged you to start a thread on that in the non football section of this forum. Link me to it, I will try to sort you out.  it is great you have discovered Wikipedia but it sounds like you could not find  Cambodia on a map.

 

Your continued obsession about sex and who might be "for sale outside my window" comes across as creepy to say the least. There is nobody for sale for $2 here .... I suppose I could head downtown and find a $50 hooker if that were my thing,  but you could probably do the same wherever you live.  Good luck. Hope that idea titilates you, as you are so fixated on these types of topics.

 

 

I ain't the one who moved around the world to live in a country that has sex slaves is all I'm saying. You seem defensive. 

 

Sorry about my "thickness" but had you asked I could have told you, this here board ain't Harvard.

 

As for your insinuations, from my point of view it is others who are obsessed with race. None of Tyrod's game performance, which by the way I have watched for 3 years, seems to enter into the balyhoo of the accusers. It is YOU GUYS who can't seem to de-focus off his skin tone.   

 

You don't understand, you don't understand, you don't understand, you say. Ok fine, you don't understand. Get a t-shirt. make a bumper sticker. 

 

But you not understanding doesn't make me a racist. And frankly it seems more like you REFUSE to understand more than you don't.

 

So I could say things like, who is the most popular current Bill? It is Shady.

 

I could say who is the majority favorite Bill for at least the last ten years? Fred Jackson.

 

But that will be different in some way so that the obvious implication of that, which is WE DONT CARE WE WANT TO WIN, won't matter and you will carry on, and on. 

 

I will go so far as to say even if some Bills fan was a racist, they wouldn't care if the guy would win. 

 

Tyrod can't throw. We supported him for 3 years and the man can't throw.

 

From your BS and that of the press one would expect that whole Black community feels like Tyrod is getting jobbed.

 

Oddly not one of my Black friends who is a Bills fan thinks that. What do they think? He can't throw. Just like me.

 

Further Bills games are the most inclusive cross ethnic cross gender event that I know of. EVERYBODY goes.  And we are all Bills fans when we are there.

 

So bring on your slander Cambo Rambo, I will sling it right back just like you deserve.

 

And if Allen can throw we will LOVE him.

 

 I do admit though, if Rosen comes, we will hate him no matter what, because he is a Jew.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by BadLandsMeanie

[CamboBill]

7 hours ago, ricojes said:

Race does not factor into analyzing TT, for the most part it's all about your statement which I bolded.  He is a decent QB and game manager and nothing else.  He is a high character guy and I wish him the best in Cleveland, but I am glad he is no longer in Buffalo.  He wasn't treated unfairly here as some might think, he started for 3 seasons!  He was benched for refusing to throw the ball into tight windows and playing it too safe.  The anger here isn't directed at TT, but towards other posters who over value TT's contributions and believe he is better than he actually is and that the Bills were somehow holding him back.  It's those ridiculous comments that will ensure a heated TT debate, but I can assure you that most here appreciate TT's contributions and have nothing but respect for the way he handled himself as a Bill.  The color of the QB's skin does not matter to Bills fans, it's all about winning.  It's unfortunate that your post mentioned race, but welcome to the board...

Thanks. I will get to the heart of it.  Tyrod was the best QB we have had this century.  That said, he was a lower middle tier starter maybe around rank 20 to 22.  He was a great game manager and highly effective when the game was close. The games needed to be close because Tyrod needed the running game to be relevant in order for him to be effective.  Once the Bills fell behind and needed to move the ball in 10 to 20 yard chunks  he was ineffective, and in the modern, high scoring NFL this just does not work.  He might have been better if the Bills had not traded Watkins (with whom he worked out with in the offseason),  but we will never know and I have no problem with the Watkins deal.

 

The above are all valid criticisms and have nothing to do with race. I appreciate that you at least acknowledge his contributions and how he handled himself but it bothers me when I see most posters here just trashing him. He was also the classic underdog story. ... a late round pick that took less money to play for us because he had a better chance at starting.  A "blue collar"  town like buffalo should have embraced such an underdog.  Instead too many people looked at a half full glass of water and accused it of being empty.

 

Anyway, it is in the past now, but when the same tropes are being applied to Lamar Jackson it is cause for concern.  Remember all the DeShawn Watson criticism last year? Jackson should be better than him.

[BadLandsMeanie]

10 minutes ago, CamboBill said:

Thanks. I will get to the heart of it.  Tyrod was the best QB we have had this century.  That said, he was a lower middle tier starter maybe around rank 20 to 22.  He was a great game manager and highly effective when the game was close. The games needed to be close because Tyrod needed the running game to be relevant in order for him to be effective.  Once the Bills fell behind and needed to move the ball in 10 to 20 yard chunks  he was ineffective, and in the modern, high scoring NFL this just does not work.  He might have been better if the Bills had not traded Watkins (with whom he worked out with in the offseason),  but we will never know and I have no problem with the Watkins deal.

 

The above are all valid criticisms and have nothing to do with race. I appreciate that you at least acknowledge his contributions and how he handled himself but it bothers me when I see most posters here just trashing him. He was also the classic underdog story. ... a late round pick that took less money to play for us because he had a better chance at starting.  A "blue collar"  town like buffalo should have embraced such an underdog.  Instead too many people looked at a half full glass of water and accused it of being empty.

 

Anyway, it is in the past now, but when the same tropes are being applied to Lamar Jackson it is cause for concern.  Remember all the DeShawn Watson criticism last year? Jackson should be better than him.

 

Almost no one has spoken a harsh word about Tyrod as a person from what i have seen.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

So, to recap:

 

You're a new poster. Your first new thread, you come out swinging and allege that anyone who didn't like Tyrod or don't like Jackson are racist....and you're wondering why you haven't gotten a better reception?

Question:

 

What about people who liked manuel but didn't like tyrod and don't like jackson? Are they still racist?
 

[Pasaluki]

Buffalo was the 2nd team ever to start a black quarterback in 1969. The New York Giants started their first qb in 2017 which is very interesting don't you think? 

They may have "ousted" him as you describe but, the Bills were the first team to take a risk and make Tyrod a starting quarterback. 

 

Regardless of your opinion or mine on how "good" Tyrod is the Bills don't feel he is. But do you think the Bills would feel differently in Cam Newton or Russell Wilson fell into their lap? They would immediately start for them for several years wouldn't they?

 

As for Lamar Jackson I thought that people were being lazy about comparing him to Tyrod too UNTIL I watched a single highlight reel of Lamar Jackson and now I totally agree with the comparison. It is just very evident in film. I think Tyrod and Lamar Jackson themselves would see a similarity in playstyles. 

 

Finally you can't really judge a fanbase in a vacuum just as you wouldn't say English soccer hooligans speak for every soccer fan. We have Bills fans who have extremely left wing and extremely right wing views. We probably have a communist who roots for the Bills, a fascist who roots for the Bills, and a satanist who roots for the Bills.

 

I knew a guy when I lived in the area whose dad was just this racist scumbag to pretty much anyone he met. He hated pretty much everyone. But ironically he was also the biggest Bills fan to the point where if you wore the uniform you could do absolutely nothing wrong. He even would get in your face about how OJ was innocent. He wouldn't shut up about how awesome Thurman Thomas was and how like the best moment of his life was when he saw him at Tops grocery. He even defended EJ Manuel for years and said the Bill's screwed him over and everyone except him knew EJ Manuel was terrible.

 

I write that to write this:

What unites us as individuals is our love for our team. So I don't feel the need to defend my fanbase because we are a brotherhood that often shows a very surprising amount of humanity and human decency. 

[xxxxxxxx]

2 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

It's delusional and disrespectful to assume racism of huge portions of people with zero proof. You are not just concerned about it, you and some others on here are saying it is so with zero proof, even when you try to play connect the dots things are easily explained. Show me the proof that McDermott or a large portion of fans/media based decisions on Tyrod or Lamar skin color and I'll take back the delusional and disrespectful thing. 

 

34 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

So, to recap:

 

You're a new poster. Your first new thread, you come out swinging and allege that anyone who didn't like Tyrod or don't like Jackson are racist....and you're wondering why you haven't gotten a better reception?

Question:

 

What about people who liked manuel but didn't like tyrod and don't like jackson? Are they still racist?
 

He said none of those things. Lots of sensitive folk on this board are misinterpreting the posters intentions and trying to shut down the conversation.

2 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

It's delusional and disrespectful to assume racism of huge portions of people with zero proof. You are not just concerned about it, you and some others on here are saying it is so with zero proof, even when you try to play connect the dots things are easily explained. Show me the proof that McDermott or a large portion of fans/media based decisions on Tyrod or Lamar skin color and I'll take back the delusional and disrespectful thing. 

If anyone called the coach or large swaths of people racist the words would be there for you to quote. No one did, so your clearly trying to silence a conversation that others would like to have.

[BuffaloSol]

3 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

 

He said none of those things. Lots of sensitive folk on this board are misinterpreting the posters intentions and trying to shut down the conversation.

Weird I ask for proof and you are unable to back it up, but your reaction does fit the identity politics theory. Oh, and people are sharing different opinions, you just disagree with what they are saying and don't have anyway of backing your beliefs up.

[xxxxxxxx]

9 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

Weird I ask for proof and you are unable to back it up, but your reaction does fit the identity politics theory. Oh, and people are sharing different opinions, you just disagree with what they are saying and don't have anyway of backing your beliefs up.

Your accusing people of saying things they didn't say and demanding proof for remarks that no one made. 

[BuffaloSol]

9 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Your accusing people of saying things they didn't say and demanding proof for remarks that no one made. 

So, I changed your mind is what your saying, good I'm glad.

 

Just so we are clear you are saying that you didn't refute these things i said.

 

 

-Racism did not play apart in how Tyrod was handled by the media/fans or the organization.

-Racism is not a factor in the organization or NFL`s evaluation of Lamar Jackson.

-It is wrong to make that accusation with no proof, because of how powerful an accusation it is.

[xxxxxxxx]

4 hours ago, CamboBill said:

Interesting. If you have time I would appreciate any links you might have.

Here are the frequently cited media analysis studies, they focus on broadcaster commentary, and are pretty thorough. If you pop the names into google scholar, the article abstracts will come up. Alot of them are paywalled, unfortunately, but can be obtained at local university libraries.

 

R.E Rainville and Mcormack, 1977

J. Rada, 1996

Billings, 2004 

 

Research goes back to the 70's and the results are pretty clear. The gist is that black qbs, and players in general, have their success frequently attributed to their innate athleticism, and that white qbs and players have their success frequently attributed to intelligence. The deadspin article that the poster was referring to as being taken out of context makes similar points. And those points correlate with what experts have been saying for 40 years.

 

There are no papers on whether Mcdermott is a racist or not, so the other poster will likely be unimpressed with the lack of objective research available.

 

The issues that you are concerned with have been documented and well known amongst crtitical race scholars for a long time, there has been some improvement, but inequality still persists. So don't let the haters stop you from asking questions. Plenty of research supports your concerns.

Edited March 28, 2018 by MURPHD6

[xxxxxxxx]

Ooh, here's a more relevant source. Eugenio Mercurio and Vincent FiFilak. Roughing the Passer: The Framing of Black and White Quarterbacks Prior to the NFL Draft. Howard Journal of Communications 21(1), 2010. Its specifically on QB evaluations, but basically draws the same conclusions that the broadcast analysis studies do. 

[BuffaloSol]

7 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Here are the frequently cited media analysis studies, they focus on broadcaster commentary, and are pretty through. If you pop the names into google scholar, the article abstracts will come up. Alot of them are paywalled, unfortunately, but can be obtained at local university libraries.

 

R.E Rainville and Mcormack, 1977

J. Rada, 1996

Billings, 2004 

Research goes back to the 70's and the results are pretty clear. The gist is that black qbs, and players in general, have their success frequently attributed to their innate athleticism, and that white qbs and players have their success attributed to intelligence.

 

There are no papers on whether Mcdermott is a racist or not, so the other poster arguing with me will likely be dissapointed.

Well a couple things, I read the abstract of the two more recent ones, because I'm not paying 50 bucks to access the article. And read the 70s article. 

 

First off the 1977 article that states white players are more likely to be spoken of positively than than the black players. That time period was never defended by me and it was so close to the 60's I'm surprised it's not worse. But using that to back up your idea that the Buffalo media is racist, is a false equivalency. 

 

Second the two Abstracts from  the late 90s and early 2000s looks at black vs white qbs, it states there seems to be a tendency for announcers to compliment black qbs for their athleticism and white qbs for their intelligence. Now even though I haven't seen all the data, if this is your best form of racism and a way to prove the media or coaches are racist you need to go back to the drawing board. They are literally complementing different players and you say that is proof of racism......plus you think this js proof that the organization, Buffalo fans, and the Buffalo media are racist? Also, should white people be upset that they aren't being touted as athletic and only intelligent?

 

TENDENCIES DON'T MEAN RACISM-remember there is a difference between saying all do this or statically higher amount of a group do this.

 

 

Not that you care, but whites do tend to score higher on the wunderlich and blacks do tend to be more athletic at the combine. It's a fact, 100% fact statically proven. The wunderlich does have an intelligence atribute value even if it's overall use to grade players next level success is debatable.

 

What you will probably say is the wunderlich is racist towards blacks that attend the same colleges the other players do for 3 years minimum, but what you won't say is the combine is racist towards whites that attend the same college for 3 years minimum. 

[BuffaloSol]

8 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Ooh, here's a more relevant source. Eugenio Mercurio and Vincent FiFilak. Roughing the Passer: The Framing of Black and White Quarterbacks Prior to the NFL Draft. Howard Journal of Communications 21(1), 2010. Its specifically on QB evaluations, but basically draws the same conclusions that the broadcast analysis studies do. 

"the 2011 quarterback study, for instance, found that African-American QBs average a score of 20.2, while white QBs average 27.7." Are statistics racist? It's a perception because there is truth in reality, but that perception does not have an affect on the way qbs are drsfted now? Nope they all take the wunderlich and more importantly meet with coaches. Players like Vince Young even with a lower wunderlich score are taken early all the time. You wouldn't call Vince Young, Jeff George, or Terry Bradshaw intelligent, but apparently it would be racist to call one of them dumb.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, BuffaloSol said:

So, I changed your mind is what your saying, good I'm glad.

 

Just so we are clear you are saying that you didn't refute these things i said.

 

 

-Racism did not play apart in how Tyrod was handled by the media/fans or the organization.

-Racism is not a factor in the organization or NFL`s evaluation of Lamar Jackson.

-It is wrong to make that accusation with no proof, because of how powerful an accusation it is.

Why are you engaging this troll.  He is just a silly little kid with a bunch of screen names.

[Pasaluki]

8 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Ooh, here's a more relevant source. Eugenio Mercurio and Vincent FiFilak. Roughing the Passer: The Framing of Black and White Quarterbacks Prior to the NFL Draft. Howard Journal of Communications 21(1), 2010. Its specifically on QB evaluations, but basically draws the same conclusions that the broadcast analysis studies do. 

 

There is probably some truth to that, but if you believe that then you have to also believe the sword cuts both ways. Why don't we have more white cornerbacks? More white safeties, running backs, and wide receivers? It's because they aren't viewed as "athletic" or "fast" enough. Maybe being considered "athletic" in a very physical game is more desirable than being considered "smart" or "high motor". I think the stereotypes are bs and everyone should be graded on merit. But if you can't watch a video of Lamar Jackson and understand why he is compared to Tyrod Taylor then you are more interested in your own narrative than objective truth. 

 

Much is said about about inequality but compare the percentage of black cornerbacks, defensive lineman, safeties, running backs, and wide receivers. Then compare the percentage of African Americans to Whites in the U.S. population. Do all that and then criticize the Bills for actually STARTING a black qb and basically imply they are racist for ever getting rid of him!

Then as a bonus try to pretend like the Bills fanbase and team wouldn't be salivating over Cam Newton and Russell Wilson. 

 

Go on I'll wait.

 

I know this next part is going to make some people upset but:

Ironically the thing that probably irritates the people who are mad at the Bills for moving on from Taylor is that he didn't kneel for the anthem. If he did then there would be a narrative to latch on to. They could have justified saying the team was racist and lied to themselves that it was something other than performance. Instead Tyrod was a true professional, he handled everything with honor and class. 

 

 

[xxxxxxxx]

6 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Why are you engaging this troll.  He is just a silly little kid with a bunch of screen names.

Stopped talking to him a while ago. He keeps arguing with himself, though. Another poster asked for sources, and they weren't a troll. Its term paper time, so if he's a student interested in the topic I'm happy to help. I'm not going to take the time to pull sources unless the request is in good faith. I could care less about the opinions of those who disagree, but I'm happy to pass info on to those who are interested, legitimately. Its what being a good fan and a good  comminity member is all about.

Edited March 29, 2018 by MURPHD6

[BuffaloSol]

2 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Stopped talking to him a while ago. He keeps arguing with himself, though. Another poster asked for sources, and they weren't a troll. Its term paper time, so if he's a student interested in the topic I'm happy to help. I'm not going to take the time to pull sources unless the request is in good faith.

He is talking about you, chap.

13 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Why are you engaging this troll.  He is just a silly little kid with a bunch of screen names.

Boredom and exposing the frailty of their arguement, lol. 

[JohnC]

The quickest way to blow up this board is to inject politics and race into the discussion. It will not only contaminate the discussions but will also have a lingering effect of creating a hostile climate. I closely follow the political scene and have political leanings. But this is not the place to bring up that subject matter. 

 

There isn't a person on this board who was more critical of Taylor than I was. I consider his departure a positive act. Many others think otherwise. I can assure everyone that race was not a factor in my opinion. And I resent it when it is even hinted at. Even the suggestion that one's opinion had a racial overtone  in itself can be poisonous not only on that particular qb issue but also have a spillover effect on other issues. Let's immediately put a stop to it. And by the way I like Lamar Jackson. 

[Teddy KGB]

36 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Stopped talking to him a while ago. He keeps arguing with himself, though. Another poster asked for sources, and they weren't a troll. Its term paper time, so if he's a student interested in the topic I'm happy to help. I'm not going to take the time to pull sources unless the request is in good faith. I could care less about the opinions of those who disagree, but I'm happy to pass info on to those who are interested, legitimately. Its what being a good fan and a good  comminity member is all about.

 

I’d rather listen to a Cambodian hooker talk.  

[xxxxxxxx]

19 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The quickest way to blow up this board is to inject politics and race into the discussion. It will not only contaminate the discussions but will also have a lingering effect of creating a hostile climate. I closely follow the political scene and have political leanings. But this is not the place to bring up that subject matter. 

 

There isn't a person on this board who was more critical of Taylor than I was. I consider his departure a positive act. Many others think otherwise. I can assure everyone that race was not a factor in my opinion. And I resent it when it is even hinted at. Even the suggestion that one's opinion had a racial overtone  in itself can be poisonous not only on that particular qb issue but also have a spillover effect on other issues. Let's immediately put a stop to it. And by the way I like Lamar Jackson. 

 The thread was started under those pretenses of having a discussion about identity politics and QB evaluation. Its being trolled, clearly, though that is not the fault of the poster who started the thread. Its also an issue that is widely discussed in other forums, so its not out of line with regard to board policy, as far as I can tell. The fact that its being trolled doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others. There aren't alot of polite ways to discuss these topics nowadays, and if some folk are being made to feel uncomfortable over a discussion about racism, I don't think that is a bad thing.