Making the case for Lamar Jackson

[ALF]

If the Bills can't trade up to #2 or #4  I would be ok with Lamar  at #12. If he is gone by then Rudolph

[NastyNateSoldiers]

1 hour ago, 502Buffs said:

 

1 hour ago, 502Buffs said:

You just killed your argument by comparing Lamar Jackson tape to EJ Manual's. Wish some of you guys could get over stereotyping QB's, or at least not be so obvious about it. First everyone compares him to Tyrod now EJ...it makes no sense they're all completely different players. You're doing nothing but showing you don't watch any football outside of Bills games by making these comparisons which is fine, but it doesn't mean you can look at a QB  and say it won't work based off of his appearance.

I think u misunderstood me.  Basically saying anyone can look good in highlights on youtube. 

 

Believe me buddy I'm 39yrs old I've been watching football for over 30yrs. I've had Sunday ticket since it came out in 1994. I got 4tvs going on Sundays for nearly 10yrs. I watch plenty of football . 

 

Look man u answered my question would u take him as a passer in first rd. U said no.  Why should we settle for less at the QB position.  Just say it u don't want a QB u want a GB ( GimmickBack ) cause that's what Lamar is. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by NastyNateSoldiers

[BigBuff423]

As usual, Cover1 did a really nice job of breaking down Lamar Jackson's positives and negatives, indicating what he believes he needs to work on once he's in the NFL. Erik also does a nice job of providing a back-story and how Lamar Jackson has evolved to this point. If you're indicating Lamar is currently a run first QB, you don't know what you're talking about, or if you're saying he's too inaccurate, then you need to put that statement into context - because while he is too inaccurate, there requires more explanation, i.e. Josh Allen as well....simply put, Lamar Jackson IMHO, has similar upside that Josh Allen has, but a bit more of a known commodity because of where he played, the coach and the Offense. Before you come to too many conclusions, read something like this:

 

https://www.cover1.net/scouting-report-qb-lamar-jackson-louisville/

[racketmaster]

I agree that Jackson is underrated as a prospect, but I would not take him over any of the top 4 in this draft. A debate between Rudolph and Jackson is warranted as both seem to be a little underrated based on their college production (even though they have completely different styles). I think the lack of excitement surrounding Jackson on this board has to do with a few things: 

(1) We are just coming off 3 years of Tyrod. I liked Tyrod but even I agreed we should move on from him after last season in order for this team to take the next step as a consistent Super Bowl contender. Tyrod could get a team to the playoffs but he was limited as a passer (lacked the necessary anticipation). And the feeling to want to go in a different direction are only natural. We see this all the time, when a team is poor defensively and has an offensive head coach, they typically gravitate toward a defensive minded HC and visa versa. So the feelings of wanting to try a different style of quarterback is definitely prevalent amongst Bills fans. Again, I enjoyed watching Tyrod and thought he was a solid quarterback but with the league passing rules the way it is better to have a passer than a quarterback that is too dependent on running. 

(2) Tyrod and Jackson are similar players. No two players are exactly the same but it is only natural to make comparisons. That is how we try and rank and sort players. We try and identify who they play and act like and then slot them in our rankings accordingly. Again, no two players are the same but making comparisons can at least give you a rough idea of what to expect from the player upon entering the league. So who should Jackson be compared to? If we are trying to make a real NFL comparison then we are rather limited on options because of Jackson's freakish running ability. Tyrod Taylor is currently the most freakish of runners for a quarterback. He is not the most powerful and he may not even be the fastest (although he was/is a 4.5 guy at one point) but he has excellent instincts, great balance and is very elusive in the open field. I mean comparing Jackson to Tom Brady would just be ridiculous because they have completely different skill sets. Mike Vick is also a common comparison but as far as current NFL quarterbacks, there might not be a better comparison than Tyrod. That said, there are differences. Jackson is probably a 4.3 speed guy. He is a little less elusive (laterally) but more explosive and faster than Tyrod. With Jackson's speed you will see longer TD runs. As far as a passer, Jackson is also more developed than Tyrod was coming out of VA Tech (there offense was run oriented and much more simple). With that said, watching Jackson he appears to benefit from a Petrino offense that can scheme players to get open. More often than not Jackson appears to be given a combination read to one part of the field. If the 1-2 wrs are covered then his 3rd option is to take off and run (which he does well at). It is rare for me to see Jackson stand back and scan the entire field going through multiple progressions. Tyrod has developed over the years and he will stand back and scan the field (unfortunately he is lacking in anticipation and often misses windows where wrs are open). Now can Jackson be coached up to be more patient in the pocket. Sure, but it will take some time and it may never happen for him. He has often been compared to Taylor and Vick but he could also be compared to Randel El and T. Pryor who did not make it as NFL quarterbacks. Jackson's ceiling is probably Vick and his floor might be Pryor. Yes, they are all black quarterbacks but he is an elite runner and there are so few at the qb position. Most NFL running backs are black and when we see the odd white rb come out we tend to compare them to other white rbs and the same goes with wrs. 

(3) Jackson will need to develop as a passer. Every qb coming out needs to improve but Jackson definitly will need to work on understanding coverages, going through his progressions, having patience and not running right away if his first 2 reads are covered. I believe Jackson can still be successful even if he does not develop too much as a passer. If he gets into the right system he can still be a threat on the ground and he is accurate enough and has a good enough arm to stretch the field vertically (Taylor could do this as well). So his legs can make him an effective player, even more so than Taylor. That said we have seen Taylor enough to know that NFL defenses are fast and the lbs and dbs hit hard. The longevity of a running qb will be limited if they do not develop as a passer because once they can no longer run away from defenders they need to rely more on their arm than their legs. Developing as a passer is harder than it seems. Running  qbs have relied on their legs to bail them out in hs and college. It tends to be a learned default mode and limits the development as a passer. 

(4) Intangibles/Leadership: This is more unknown as we do not get background reports or interview the quarterbacks. Some judgments can be made based on interviews and published scouting reports. Jackson seems like a good kid and a hard worker (similar to Tyrod). Watching him in interviews he is not particularly impressive as a speaker. If I am being honest someone like Rudolph is a much better communicator. This may not mean much to fans but if you listen to all the elite quarterbacks they almost always are good in interviews and most are exceptional. Quarterbacks need to be able to effectively communicate with their teammates and coaches. They need are seen as leaders and have to be verbal. Because my knowledge of Jackson as a person is limited, I don't want to make too much of this area but I want my quarterback to be able to stand up in front of the cameras like a confident leader and give smart and thoughtful answeres to questions. I feel like this might be important in the huddle showing command of the offense and effectively communicating it to his teammates. 

(5) Maybe most importantly to me is I have never gotten the sense that the Bills are targeting Jackson. There seems to be little interest in Jackson from the Bills. Comments from Beane provide some evidence like when asked about Jackson Beane said "he deserves a chance to play quarterback". Not much there but certainly not a ringing endorsement for being a franchise qb.  More importantly, there were never any ties to the Bills and Jackson back in the fall like there were to Darnold and the Bills. Anything that has tied the Bills to Jackson appear to be a smokescreen to me. Maybe the biggest thing to me is the Bills wanting to move on from Taylor. They tried pulling the plug on Taylor when we were still in the playoff race last season. This regime did not seem to believe in Taylor as a long term option or even as a bridge. And because Taylor and Jackson have similar styles, it would seem logical that if the Bills loved Jackson that they would keep Taylor for 1 more season to develop Jackson behind Taylor. What other qb would Jackson be better sutied to sit behind for a year than Taylor. The offenses they could run would be similar and Taylor has excellent work ethic and character (he is a true professional). The Bills would not have to move up in the draft to get him. Instead, the Bills moved on from Taylor and have been linked to trying to move up in the top 5 of the draft (if Bills wanted Jackson they would not have been pushing so hard to move up into the top 5). It's all possible it is a smokescreen and the Bills love Jackson, but I'd be surprised. And because the Bills don't appear to be in on Jackson, I've never really considered Jackson as a likely option. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by racketmaster

[502Buffs]

8 hours ago, racketmaster said:

I agree that Jackson is underrated as a prospect, but I would not take him over any of the top 4 in this draft. A debate between Rudolph and Jackson is warranted as both seem to be a little underrated based on their college production (even though they have completely different styles). I think the lack of excitement surrounding Jackson on this board has to do with a few things: 

(1) We are just coming off 3 years of Tyrod. I liked Tyrod but even I agreed we should move on from him after last season in order for this team to take the next step as a consistent Super Bowl contender. Tyrod could get a team to the playoffs but he was limited as a passer (lacked the necessary anticipation). And the feeling to want to go in a different direction are only natural. We see this all the time, when a team is poor defensively and has an offensive head coach, they typically gravitate toward a defensive minded HC and visa versa. So the feelings of wanting to try a different style of quarterback is definitely prevalent amongst Bills fans. Again, I enjoyed watching Tyrod and thought he was a solid quarterback but with the league passing rules the way it is better to have a passer than a quarterback that is too dependent on running. 

(2) Tyrod and Jackson are similar players. No two players are exactly the same but it is only natural to make comparisons. That is how we try and rank and sort players. We try and identify who they play and act like and then slot them in our rankings accordingly. Again, no two players are the same but making comparisons can at least give you a rough idea of what to expect from the player upon entering the league. So who should Jackson be compared to? If we are trying to make a real NFL comparison then we are rather limited on options because of Jackson's freakish running ability. Tyrod Taylor is currently the most freakish of runners for a quarterback. He is not the most powerful and he may not even be the fastest (although he was/is a 4.5 guy at one point) but he has excellent instincts, great balance and is very elusive in the open field. I mean comparing Jackson to Tom Brady would just be ridiculous because they have completely different skill sets. Mike Vick is also a common comparison but as far as current NFL quarterbacks, there might not be a better comparison than Tyrod. That said, there are differences. Jackson is probably a 4.3 speed guy. He is a little less elusive (laterally) but more explosive and faster than Tyrod. With Jackson's speed you will see longer TD runs. As far as a passer, Jackson is also more developed than Tyrod was coming out of VA Tech (there offense was run oriented and much more simple). With that said, watching Jackson he appears to benefit from a Petrino offense that can scheme players to get open. More often than not Jackson appears to be given a combination read to one part of the field. If the 1-2 wrs are covered then his 3rd option is to take off and run (which he does well at). It is rare for me to see Jackson stand back and scan the entire field going through multiple progressions. Tyrod has developed over the years and he will stand back and scan the field (unfortunately he is lacking in anticipation and often misses windows where wrs are open). Now can Jackson be coached up to be more patient in the pocket. Sure, but it will take some time and it may never happen for him. He has often been compared to Taylor and Vick but he could also be compared to Randel El and T. Pryor who did not make it as NFL quarterbacks. Jackson's ceiling is probably Vick and his floor might be Pryor. Yes, they are all black quarterbacks but he is an elite runner and there are so few at the qb position. Most NFL running backs are black and when we see the odd white rb come out we tend to compare them to other white rbs and the same goes with wrs. 

(3) Jackson will need to develop as a passer. Every qb coming out needs to improve but Jackson definitly will need to work on understanding coverages, going through his progressions, having patience and not running right away if his first 2 reads are covered. I believe Jackson can still be successful even if he does not develop too much as a passer. If he gets into the right system he can still be a threat on the ground and he is accurate enough and has a good enough arm to stretch the field vertically (Taylor could do this as well). So his legs can make him an effective player, even more so than Taylor. That said we have seen Taylor enough to know that NFL defenses are fast and the lbs and dbs hit hard. The longevity of a running qb will be limited if they do not develop as a passer because once they can no longer run away from defenders they need to rely more on their arm than their legs. Developing as a passer is harder than it seems. Running  qbs have relied on their legs to bail them out in hs and college. It tends to be a learned default mode and limits the development as a passer. 

(4) Intangibles/Leadership: This is more unknown as we do not get background reports or interview the quarterbacks. Some judgments can be made based on interviews and published scouting reports. Jackson seems like a good kid and a hard worker (similar to Tyrod). Watching him in interviews he is not particularly impressive as a speaker. If I am being honest someone like Rudolph is a much better communicator. This may not mean much to fans but if you listen to all the elite quarterbacks they almost always are good in interviews and most are exceptional. Quarterbacks need to be able to effectively communicate with their teammates and coaches. They need are seen as leaders and have to be verbal. Because my knowledge of Jackson as a person is limited, I don't want to make too much of this area but I want my quarterback to be able to stand up in front of the cameras like a confident leader and give smart and thoughtful answeres to questions. I feel like this might be important in the huddle showing command of the offense and effectively communicating it to his teammates. 

(5) Maybe most importantly to me is I have never gotten the sense that the Bills are targeting Jackson. There seems to be little interest in Jackson from the Bills. Comments from Beane provide some evidence like when asked about Jackson Beane said "he deserves a chance to play quarterback". Not much there but certainly not a ringing endorsement for being a franchise qb.  More importantly, there were never any ties to the Bills and Jackson back in the fall like there were to Darnold and the Bills. Anything that has tied the Bills to Jackson appear to be a smokescreen to me. Maybe the biggest thing to me is the Bills wanting to move on from Taylor. They tried pulling the plug on Taylor when we were still in the playoff race last season. This regime did not seem to believe in Taylor as a long term option or even as a bridge. And because Taylor and Jackson have similar styles, it would seem logical that if the Bills loved Jackson that they would keep Taylor for 1 more season to develop Jackson behind Taylor. What other qb would Jackson be better sutied to sit behind for a year than Taylor. The offenses they could run would be similar and Taylor has excellent work ethic and character (he is a true professional). The Bills would not have to move up in the draft to get him. Instead, the Bills moved on from Taylor and have been linked to trying to move up in the top 5 of the draft (if Bills wanted Jackson they would not have been pushing so hard to move up into the top 5). It's all possible it is a smokescreen and the Bills love Jackson, but I'd be surprised. And because the Bills don't appear to be in on Jackson, I've never really considered Jackson as a likely option. 

All valid points/criticisms. Thanks for the reply. He is active in the Boynton Beach, FL community (his hometown) in mentoring at risk youth, He's a respectful guy in interviews. He's also certainly not afraid to be a vocal leader in the locker room, I don't think any prospect is ready to be a leader of an NFL team from day 1, I also don't think every elite professional athlete has always been outspoken or even great at interviews. As long as our guy is a hard worker and represents the team and community well, I'll cheer and support them.

[Solomon Grundy]

Here's a quote from Sean Payton, head coach of the Saints:

 

I like him. I like him. He’s athletic. He’s got a magic smile to him. He’s a leader. With Lamar, you feel it in the room and you can tell he can lead. … He’s a special guy. You just have to be around him, interview him, and you can see why he was successful.

[xRUSHx]

So we can go from "run Tyrod run" to

"run Jackson run". No thank you to Jackson in any round for the Bills I want a true pocket QB..

[Kangaxx]

19 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

So we can go from "run Tyrod run" to

"run Jackson run". No thank you to Jackson in any round for the Bills I want a true pocket QB..

75% of Jacksons running yards were gained from designed runs. He's not a runner. He can sling it.

 

He's faster and more elusive than Tyrod. He has a bigger arm than Tyrod. He's not afraid to throw the football like Tyrod.

 

Would you seriously draft Rudolf over Jackson? 

Edited March 28, 2018 by APoxOnYou

[John from Riverside]

35 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

So we can go from "run Tyrod run" to

"run Jackson run". No thank you to Jackson in any round for the Bills I want a true pocket QB..

I am so hoping we draft him.....just to watch the tears

[Reed83HOF]

21 minutes ago, APoxOnYou said:

Would you seriously draft Rudolf over Jackson? 

Rudolph does fit Beane's profile for a QB better and it is hard to deny the athleticism of Jackson. Would be interesting to see who the Bills would chose hypothetically, but we are moving up for a QB. Very unlikely scenario we end up with either...

[CommonCents]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I am so hoping we draft him.....just to watch the tears

Hope your around on draft night so I can give you a side hug and wipe away your tears when he goes elsewhere.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just watched the long breakdown of Jackson on Path to the Draft. He’s a special talent. He has a high ceiling and a low floor. He is an option at 12 but will need some time and Daboll to be creative. That Eagles offense is the exact scheme to maximize Lamar. If someone replicates the RPOs that they ran Jackson will be lethal.

[26CornerBlitz]

NFL Draft: Why Mel Kiper thinks Buffalo Bills would be a good fit for Lamar Jackson
That's become a realistic possibility for the Bills, who many presume are going to try to package those picks and more to move up into the top five of the draft order. If they get stuck at pick 12, though, ESPN NFL Draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. thinks Louisville quarterback Lamar Jackson is a legitimate option.

"If he went to Buffalo with pick 12 or Buffalo at pick 22, he would be afforded the same opportunity (to sit for a year) because they have AJ McCarron," Kiper said. "I think (Arizona and Buffalo) would be two good landing spots for him. He's got to improve his accuracy. That's a fact. That 57 percent, you haven't seen any improvement off of that. You see him at the combine, he was still all over the place with those throws. That's where you know he's going to need some time and some work. He's got a great attitude, tremendously competitive. I think Arizona or Buffalo in the first round. Like I said, no different than the other guys, on the shelf for a year or two and then the starter after that."

[Reed83HOF]

10 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

NFL Draft: Why Mel Kiper thinks Buffalo Bills would be a good fit for Lamar Jackson
That's become a realistic possibility for the Bills, who many presume are going to try to package those picks and more to move up into the top five of the draft order. If they get stuck at pick 12, though, ESPN NFL Draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. thinks Louisville quarterback Lamar Jackson is a legitimate option.

"If he went to Buffalo with pick 12 or Buffalo at pick 22, he would be afforded the same opportunity (to sit for a year) because they have AJ McCarron," Kiper said. "I think (Arizona and Buffalo) would be two good landing spots for him. He's got to improve his accuracy. That's a fact. That 57 percent, you haven't seen any improvement off of that. You see him at the combine, he was still all over the place with those throws. That's where you know he's going to need some time and some work. He's got a great attitude, tremendously competitive. I think Arizona or Buffalo in the first round. Like I said, no different than the other guys, on the shelf for a year or two and then the starter after that."

So that should seal it - no Jackson for us!

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

So that should seal it - no Jackson for us!

 

The combine throws commentary is nonsense.  Game film is what matters most with any of these QBs with a projection toward the future. 

[Solomon Grundy]

13 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

NFL Draft: Why Mel Kiper thinks Buffalo Bills would be a good fit for Lamar Jackson
That's become a realistic possibility for the Bills, who many presume are going to try to package those picks and more to move up into the top five of the draft order. If they get stuck at pick 12, though, ESPN NFL Draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. thinks Louisville quarterback Lamar Jackson is a legitimate option.

"If he went to Buffalo with pick 12 or Buffalo at pick 22, he would be afforded the same opportunity (to sit for a year) because they have AJ McCarron," Kiper said. "I think (Arizona and Buffalo) would be two good landing spots for him. He's got to improve his accuracy. That's a fact. That 57 percent, you haven't seen any improvement off of that. You see him at the combine, he was still all over the place with those throws. That's where you know he's going to need some time and some work. He's got a great attitude, tremendously competitive. I think Arizona or Buffalo in the first round. Like I said, no different than the other guys, on the shelf for a year or two and then the starter after that."

What the hell was Mel Kiper watching at the combine? He was not all over the place with his throws. Kiper wouldn't answer why accuracy was a problem for Jackson, but not for Allen. As far as Mel Kiper goes, I'll continue to quote Bill Tobin.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The combine throws commentary is nonsense.  Game film is what matters most with any of these QBs with a projection toward the future. 

And then he says that Allen addressed accuracy concerns at the combine and his pro-day - what a

 

[hemma]

Sounds like a good, down the road fit for Anthony Lynn.

 

Go Chargers!

[Solomon Grundy]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The combine throws commentary is nonsense.  Game film is what matters most with any of these QBs with a projection toward the future. 

Not only is it nonsense, it's fake news!!

[billsfan_34]

On 3/26/2018 at 4:58 PM, CNY315 said:

He's my guy if Mayfield is gone at 12

I like this kid alot- torn between him and Baker