buffalobloodfloridahome Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 1 hour ago, billsredneck1 said: i agree with your last point and grade rudolph way above lamar..... and not 4 nuthin derek carr went in the 2nd...... I'm not saying Rudolph won't be successful and Lamar can't be successful. I just see them as second tier QBs in this draft.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, NewEraBills said: I'm a Rosen guy but that article and other emphases lead me to believe that the Bills are not interested in 1) Rosen 2) Mayfield They are interested in 1) Darnold 2) Allen 3) Rudolph 4) Jackson 5) Falk Their emphasis is on culture and I think they will do extra homework to make sure that whoever they take fits within the culture they are trying to build. I think their preference is to land Darnold or Allen, but they will take a lesser talented player (Rudolph, Falk) and less polished player (Jackson) at the position than bring in a guy that does not fit the culture. Hopefully, I'm wrong and the interviews with Rosen and Mayfield went well and they saw something, heard things and that these guys actually do fit into the culture. But if they don't they just don't. No need to force it. I went back and read the article again and that is not my take at all. If they take a lesser talent like the guys you mentioned ahead of Rosen or Mayfield it will get them fired! 1
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, horned dogs said: I went back and read the article again and that is not my take at all. If they take a lesser talent like the guys you mentioned ahead of Rosen or Mayfield it will get them fired! Ohhh I'm not saying it wouldn't. And I never made a claim about their jobs although, it would be on the line. I'm just saying they preach culture ALL the time and they are not going to take a guy they do not think fits that. Like I said, hopefully, I'm wrong and Rosen and Mayfield truthfully and sincerely fit their culture model as I'm for Rosen, but I have questions if both do. Given the thing that happened with Zay they are working overtime to make sure whoever they take fits within the culture but this guy doesn't just fit, he's going to have to be a leader of it. That's where I have questions about Rosen and Mayfield.
SouthNYfan Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, horned dogs said: I went back and read the article again and that is not my take at all. If they take a lesser talent like the guys you mentioned ahead of Rosen or Mayfield it will get them fired! There is no f*cking way they pass on Mayfield or Rosen for Rudolph/Jackson/any of the other lower tier guys. I'm not saying they might say that the cost to move up and draft Rosen/Baker is higher than they want, so they will settle for the other guys, but no way they actually pass Rosen/Mayfield if they are available when they are selecting. You're right 100% 1
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: There is no f*cking way they pass on Mayfield or Rosen for Rudolph/Jackson/any of the other lower tier guys. I'm not saying they might say that the cost to move up and draft Rosen/Baker is higher than they want, so they will settle for the other guys, but no way they actually pass Rosen/Mayfield if they are available when they are selecting. You're right 100% This is an emotional response that is only looking at this from the perspective of talent. Of course talent wise you don't pass on Mayfield or Rosen for those guys. I'd be lunacy. But I don't think Beane and McD are simply looking for talent. They are looking for talent + a guy that represents what they are building culture wise, that's why I think Darnold and Allen are their top two guys. I'm all for Rosen, Mayfield. Those are my top two QBs. I just don't think Beane and McD see those guys as representative of what they are trying to build. I want to be wrong on this but look at some of the things that Mayfield says in interviews, that Rosen says in interviews, then look at what Rudolph, Darnold, Allen, Falk says. What people say is indicative of who they are and what they represent. Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building. Beane and McD are not just drafting a football player. They are drafting that plus a guy that can represent the culture. Like I said, I hope their time with Mayfield and Rosen truthfully showed them that these are guys that fit what they are building, but as we get closer to the draft there's just too much going on around these guys to make me believe that they are the models that Beane and McD want representing the Bills.
SouthNYfan Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 39 minutes ago, NewEraBills said: This is an emotional response that is only looking at this from the perspective of talent. Of course talent wise you don't pass on Mayfield or Rosen for those guys. I'd be lunacy. But I don't think Beane and McD are simply looking for talent. They are looking for talent + a guy that represents what they are building culture wise, that's why I think Darnold and Allen are their top two guys. I'm all for Rosen, Mayfield. Those are my top two QBs. I just don't think Beane and McD see those guys as representative of what they are trying to build. I want to be wrong on this but look at some of the things that Mayfield says in interviews, that Rosen says in interviews, then look at what Rudolph, Darnold, Allen, Falk says. What people say is indicative of who they are and what they represent. Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building. Beane and McD are not just drafting a football player. They are drafting that plus a guy that can represent the culture. Like I said, I hope their time with Mayfield and Rosen truthfully showed them that these are guys that fit what they are building, but as we get closer to the draft there's just too much going on around these guys to make me believe that they are the models that Beane and McD want representing the Bills. No. This isn't an emotional response. This is an objective response based on actual on the field footage and objective measurements. Rosen and Mayfield are better prospects than Rudolph, Falk, Jackson, Lauletta, Ferguson. That's a fact. I'm not going to go through the hundreds of links with actual game footage and such again. You speaking about the "models they want representing the Bills" which implies that they will pass on Rosen and Mayfield for Rudolph is an "emotional response" Your words of "Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building." Is exactly the definition of "emotional response"
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: No. This isn't an emotional response. This is an objective response based on actual on the field footage and objective measurements. Rosen and Mayfield are better prospects than Rudolph, Falk, Jackson, Lauletta, Ferguson. That's a fact. I'm not going to go through the hundreds of links with actual game footage and such again. You speaking about the "models they want representing the Bills" which implies that they will pass on Rosen and Mayfield for Rudolph is an "emotional response" Your words of "Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building." Is exactly the definition of "emotional response" 1 How is that emotional in what I said. It's actually logic. Beane and McD preach culture They are not going to take a guy that doesn't fit the culture There are several questions as to whether Mayfield or Rosen fit the culture Rudolph fits the cultural leadership model they envision While Mayfield and Rosen are more talented Rudolph fits the culture They are going to take a guy that fits their culture over one who doesn't Now had I said, I like Rudolph and if they take anyone over him then I'm going to be pissed. That's an emotional response. But when you factor in what they preach and the type of personality that they are trying to put in place as the leader of what they have built, as much as I see Mayfield and Rosen as better talents, I think there are severe questions on their fit and I think that's why they'd just wait it out and take Rudolph at a lower draft spot than take Mayfield or Rosen. I'm not going to be surprised at all if Rosen or Mayfield slip. Let me be very clear so you will not assume what I am NOT saying. This is not a question about their talent. But the thing you have to factor in is you and I are watching these guys on TV. The GM and coaches are in some sense living with this guy, asking him to represent what they have built and telling the NFL and sports at large this is what we've built and this guy as the model for that. If you don't think this factors into their evals or any GM's evaluations I'm not sure what to say. That's essentially the ultimate point I'm making. I'm not suggesting that Rudolph, Jackson or any of those guys are better QBs than Rosen or Mayfield. I'm suggesting that they fit what Beane and McD are looking for as a locker room guy, as a guy they can put in front of the camera and not have to worry about him saying something that they will have to clean up, as one who represents their process and culture through and through. there are too many questions surrounding Rosen and Mayfield. 1
Where’sLloyd Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 Whoever gets Rosen will be lucky, because I believe he will fall a bit but not past 12. Injuries are a concern, but Luck and RG3 didn’t really have injury flags and look at them now. It’s the reality of the biz. I think the personality thing is nonsense, Rosen has the best arm talent of the group and his frame can be fixed with some weight gainer and a few trips to the gym. If you think Rosen rubs people the wrong way just look at Jim Kelly or even Elway draft time. Couldn’t care less about their attitudes. Rudolph is just not that good from what I have read.
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Where’sLloyd said: Whoever gets Rosen will be lucky, because I believe he will fall a bit but not past 12. Injuries are a concern, but Luck and RG3 didn’t really have injury flags and look at them now. It’s the reality of the biz. I think the personality thing is nonsense, Rosen has the best arm talent of the group and his frame can be fixed with some weight gainer and a few trips to the gym. If you think Rosen rubs people the wrong way just look at Jim Kelly or even Elway draft time. Couldn’t care less about their attitudes. Rudolph is just not that good from what I have read. It's not about what I think, it's about whether Beane and McD thinks this guy represents their process and culture through and through. As fans we don't care. But if you are a GM and you are having to worry about whether you are going to have to clean up something this guy has said, it's not a good look and I don't see it is something Beane and McD envision as a trait of their guy. Their talent is not the question. The question is whether the fit what Beane and McD want through and through. As a football player they probably do, but outside of that, I think there are too many questions for Beane and McD to be comfortable. But hey, they survived Cam, so maybe, but then again, Cam may be exactly the reason why they pass too.
dave mcbride Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 1 hour ago, NewEraBills said: This is an emotional response that is only looking at this from the perspective of talent. Of course talent wise you don't pass on Mayfield or Rosen for those guys. I'd be lunacy. But I don't think Beane and McD are simply looking for talent. They are looking for talent + a guy that represents what they are building culture wise, that's why I think Darnold and Allen are their top two guys. I'm all for Rosen, Mayfield. Those are my top two QBs. I just don't think Beane and McD see those guys as representative of what they are trying to build. I want to be wrong on this but look at some of the things that Mayfield says in interviews, that Rosen says in interviews, then look at what Rudolph, Darnold, Allen, Falk says. What people say is indicative of who they are and what they represent. Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building. Beane and McD are not just drafting a football player. They are drafting that plus a guy that can represent the culture. Like I said, I hope their time with Mayfield and Rosen truthfully showed them that these are guys that fit what they are building, but as we get closer to the draft there's just too much going on around these guys to make me believe that they are the models that Beane and McD want representing the Bills. For what it's worth, I have a hunch that you're right about the culture stuff at One Bills Drive right now. Where I differ from you is in my belief that Darnold is a better prospect than either Rosen or Mayfield (and I like both of them). I think he's head and shoulders above the other qb prospects. I also think he goes #1 overall.
PastaJoe Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 If Beane and McD pass on the most talented QB available because he doesn’t fit their idea of culture, and that QB goes on to success while the Bills pick falters, they won’t be around in 3 years to promote their culture. 1
SouthNYfan Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, NewEraBills said: How is that emotional in what I said. It's actually logic. Beane and McD preach culture They are not going to take a guy that doesn't fit the culture There are several questions as to whether Mayfield or Rosen fit the culture Rudolph fits the cultural leadership model they envision While Mayfield and Rosen are more talented Rudolph fits the culture They are going to take a guy that fits their culture over one who doesn't Now had I said, I like Rudolph and if they take anyone over him then I'm going to be pissed. That's an emotional response. But when you factor in what they preach and the type of personality that they are trying to put in place as the leader of what they have built, as much as I see Mayfield and Rosen as better talents, I think there are severe questions on their fit and I think that's why they'd just wait it out and take Rudolph at a lower draft spot than take Mayfield or Rosen. I'm not going to be surprised at all if Rosen or Mayfield slip. Let me be very clear so you will not assume what I am NOT saying. This is not a question about their talent. But the thing you have to factor in is you and I are watching these guys on TV. The GM and coaches are in some sense living with this guy, asking him to represent what they have built and telling the NFL and sports at large this is what we've built and this guy as the model for that. If you don't think this factors into their evals or any GM's evaluations I'm not sure what to say. That's essentially the ultimate point I'm making. I'm not suggesting that Rudolph, Jackson or any of those guys are better QBs than Rosen or Mayfield. I'm suggesting that they fit what Beane and McD are looking for as a locker room guy, as a guy they can put in front of the camera and not have to worry about him saying something that they will have to clean up, as one who represents their process and culture through and through. there are too many questions surrounding Rosen and Mayfield. It's an emotional reaction that you are making assumptions based on the "feelings of the culture" Rosen and Mayfield are dramatically ahead of Rudolph as far as talent and objective measurements. I have no doubt that any front office looks at personality/off the field things when making their evaluation. The issue, in THIS case, is the talent gap is dramatic, to the point that I guarantee no team in the NFL would rather have Rudolph over Mayfield or Rosen if the costs were the same. If they were sure Rudolph was going to be there at #22, I could see them saying "let's stick to another impact player at #12, and get Rudolph at #22" rather than trade up for Rosen/Mayfield. That not crazy, in a vacuum. The issue is, as I said earlier, that's a huge risk, because after him, it's an even bigger drop-off to the next tier of guys, which means you have to take him at #12 to assure you get him, and if, and that's a big if, Rosen or Mayfield is available at #12 along with Rudolph, there is no way they take Rudolph over one of them.
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: For what it's worth, I have a hunch that you're right about the culture stuff at One Bills Drive right now. Where I differ from you is in my belief that Darnold is a better prospect than either Rosen or Mayfield (and I like both of them). I think he's head and shoulders above the other qb prospects. I also think he goes #1 overall. I couldn't understand why Daniel Jeremiah gushed over Darnold so much. I looked at some tape and saw some things. I think Rosen is more polished. I think Darnold is the closest to Allen in arm strength and he has the personality that Beane and McD covet. To me, he is their #1 guy and Allen is a close 2nd. Darnold and Allen can also both extend plays when need be. Given Beane and McD history around QB's, they've been around guys that have top-flight arm strength and the ability to extend the play when they need to, but primarily work from the pocket. We don't necessarily disagree. I fluctuate as I keep watching. Darnold has more untapped talent than both Rosen and Mayfield. I can see that. The latter two are probably not far off from being the best they are going to get.
SouthNYfan Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, PastaJoe said: If Beane and McD pass on the most talented QB available because he doesn’t fit their idea of culture, and that QB goes on to success while the Bills pick falters, they won’t be around in 3 years to promote their culture. Exactly what I'm saying. If prospects are roughly equal, then you can go with the "character guy" In this case Rudolph is so far below Rosen and Mayfield that there's no way they pass on one of them if available to take the guy who fits their culture.
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, PastaJoe said: If Beane and McD pass on the most talented QB available because he doesn’t fit their idea of culture, and that QB goes on to success while the Bills pick falters, they won’t be around in 3 years to promote their culture. It's the risk you take though. If that guy doesn't represent what Beane and McD want, you think they are going to want to keep him around? So I think they will try like hell to land Darnold or Allen.
17 Josh Allen Posted April 16, 2018 Author Posted April 16, 2018 1 hour ago, NewEraBills said: This is an emotional response that is only looking at this from the perspective of talent. Of course talent wise you don't pass on Mayfield or Rosen for those guys. I'd be lunacy. But I don't think Beane and McD are simply looking for talent. They are looking for talent + a guy that represents what they are building culture wise, that's why I think Darnold and Allen are their top two guys. I'm all for Rosen, Mayfield. Those are my top two QBs. I just don't think Beane and McD see those guys as representative of what they are trying to build. I want to be wrong on this but look at some of the things that Mayfield says in interviews, that Rosen says in interviews, then look at what Rudolph, Darnold, Allen, Falk says. What people say is indicative of who they are and what they represent. Football wise you don't take Rudolph or Falk before Mayfield or Rosen you just don't, but when you start talking about personalities and fits that's where things change in terms of the culture they are building. Beane and McD are not just drafting a football player. They are drafting that plus a guy that can represent the culture. Like I said, I hope their time with Mayfield and Rosen truthfully showed them that these are guys that fit what they are building, but as we get closer to the draft there's just too much going on around these guys to make me believe that they are the models that Beane and McD want representing the Bills. could not agree more. Rudolph is there perfect QB for there process at 12 and they get to keep all of there picks. He has Size, Arm, 4 year career, media savvy, great stats, Good citizen, he checks all the boxes. Let’s say Browns, NYG and Den will not trade out. Bills are probably looking at Mayfield Allen, Rudolph or Jackson. Allen is my favorite but I will be super happy with Rudolph or Jackson. Any of these 3 could end up being the best QB’s in this draft class I know the Dolphins want Mayfield bad watch out for them. This is what I think will happen Browns - Darnold NYG - Barkley Jets - Rosen clev- Chubb Den - DB or Guard or QB Allen. Colts ? trade out or pick Bills will need to move up to get Allen or Mayfield so will see what happens. I think the Dolphins and Cards will try and move up into slots 6-10 so we better be ready.
Royale with Cheese Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Thurmanator 12074 said: could not agree more. Rudolph is there perfect QB for there process at 12 and they get to keep all of there picks. He has Size, Arm, 4 year career, media savvy, great stats, Good citizen, he checks all the boxes. Let’s say Browns, NYG and Den will not trade out. Bills are probably looking at Mayfield Allen, Rudolph or Jackson. Allen is my favorite but I will be super happy with Rudolph or Jackson. Any of these 3 could end up being the best QB’s in this draft class I know the Dolphins want Mayfield bad watch out for them. This is what I think will happen Browns - Darnold NYG - Barkley Jets - Rosen clev- Chubb Den - DB or Guard or QB Allen. Colts ? trade out or pick Bills will need to move up to get Allen or Mayfield so will see what happens. I think the Dolphins and Cards will try and move up into slots 6-10 so we better be ready. Well here's you saying it's sealed that Allen goes #1.
NewEraBills Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: It's an emotional reaction that you are making assumptions based on the "feelings of the culture" Rosen and Mayfield are dramatically ahead of Rudolph as far as talent and objective measurements. I have no doubt that any front office looks at personality/off the field things when making their evaluation. The issue, in THIS case, is the talent gap is dramatic, to the point that I guarantee no team in the NFL would rather have Rudolph over Mayfield or Rosen if the costs were the same. If they were sure Rudolph was going to be there at #22, I could see them saying "let's stick to another impact player at #12, and get Rudolph at #22" rather than trade up for Rosen/Mayfield. That not crazy, in a vacuum. The issue is, as I said earlier, that's a huge risk, because after him, it's an even bigger drop-off to the next tier of guys, which means you have to take him at #12 to assure you get him, and if, and that's a big if, Rosen or Mayfield is available at #12 along with Rudolph, there is no way they take Rudolph over one of them. "feelings of culture". I never used that language at all. Beane and McD always use the language of culture though and they are pretty clear on what it means, to them. It's not about what they feel or I feel, they've pretty much laid out what they are talking about. Again, I will say I'm not suggesting that they should take Rudolph over Rosen or Mayfield. What I am saying though is I would not be surprised to see Rosen and Mayfield slip and that they will try their best to land Darnold or Allen first and if they can't, they may leave QB alone until round 2 and take Rudolph if he's there. All I'm saying is as we've gotten closer to the draft, I think the picture on what they are looking for is clearer. I think their goal is to land Darnold or Allen and if they can't they are not going to take Mayfield or Rosen if those interviews did not indicate these guys fit what they are looking for both in a football player and as a guy that represents what they are building.
TheFunPolice Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 I think we might be surprised at how one or more of the QBs slides a bit... Teams are going to be sitting there looking at amazing prospects at other positions. Do they take the 3rd or 4th best QB or a potential pro bowl caliber DE or G, or CB or S?
Dr. Who Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, NewEraBills said: "feelings of culture". I never used that language at all. Beane and McD always use the language of culture though and they are pretty clear on what it means, to them. It's not about what they feel or I feel, they've pretty much laid out what they are talking about. Again, I will say I'm not suggesting that they should take Rudolph over Rosen or Mayfield. What I am saying though is I would not be surprised to see Rosen and Mayfield slip and that they will try their best to land Darnold or Allen first and if they can't, they may leave QB alone until round 2 and take Rudolph if he's there. All I'm saying is as we've gotten closer to the draft, I think the picture on what they are looking for is clearer. I think their goal is to land Darnold or Allen and if they can't they are not going to take Mayfield or Rosen if those interviews did not indicate these guys fit what they are looking for both in a football player and as a guy that represents what they are building. True or not, that's a plausible take. I hope they are able to move up, because settling for a Day 2 guy is not very appealing. 1
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