Terry Tate Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Tough pill to swallow for many liberals, but was Bush right after all? There's been some amazing developments in the Arab world recently. A few examples: - Elections in Afghanistan. BTW, their 'Minister of Womens Affairs' (!) recently met with our Sec of State. Approx 25% of their new parliament will be women. - Elections in Iraq. Even more stunning to the rest of the mideast than the ones held in Afghanistan. Their women's affairs minister also participated in the recent meeting with the US Sec of State. - Beirut. Tens of thousands of anti-Syrian demonstrators brought about the fall of Lebanon's pro-Damascus government. Syrian President Bashar Assad reiterated his commitment to withdrawing all Syrian troops and intelligence agents from Lebanon, a U.N. envoy said Saturday, indicating that he had received a timetable for the pullout. - Saudi Arabia held municipal elections, the first democratic exercise the Ibn Sauds have ever allowed. Also of note, SA's Crown Prince Abdullah welcomed Syria's President Bashar Assad to Riyadh and told Assad to get Syria's 14,000 troops out of Lebanon. - Kuwait. On Monday, hundreds of activists demanding suffrage for women marched on Kuwait's parliament. - Egypt. Hosni Mubarak has promised a genuine (i.e., contested) presidential election - something he rejected just a few weeks ago as "totally unacceptable." Granted, spring in politics doesn't always give way to summer. When the world experienced democracy movements in 1989, some led to the fall of the USSR and the Berlin wall, and some brought out tanks in Tiananmen square. I am mindful of this, and there are other examples of false hope as well - the Oslo Accords of 1993 were heralded by many to be the beginning of true Israeli-Palestinian peace, which tragically wasn't so. But truthfully, do any of these events take place without the catalyst of free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Agreed. We can only hope the long term effect is as promising as people hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyBillsFan Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Nice post Wing. I said something like this before the war and people went nuts over it.... Id like to say this man.... Ive been over there 5 times in the past 7 years. Been to Dubai, Bahrain, Alexandria Egypt (and all over Egypt), and Turkey. Ive stayed in hotels in all of those places and never been treated bad by the people there compaired to that toilet we call Europe. In Bahrian, which is the Saudi's claim the land "The Land that Allah cant See" is where the men go to sin (drink/hookers/party). Everytime we pulled into there it was nothing short of a good time. Ive sat many times with the people there in and talked about family and just relaxed having a good time. All just want to live and see their children grow up happy. All talk about reform and freedoms and its the first thing they ask. Most of the business men go to college here in the US and love it here. The one guy I talked to went to Florida and just loved it. I use to judge these people by the actions of a few. I dont do that anymore. I think these people need a taste of freedom and its what they want and not what their leaders want or the select few bomb nutso's out there. To sum this up for you, Iraq is different that Afgahn. Iraq is a oil king and located in the heart of the problems. If we get that country to where I think its going and those people thrive, you will see a chain reaction happen all over the middle east. Not by our military, but by the people and I think these other countries leaders (Iran, Jordan, Saudi) know it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Tough pill to swallow for many liberals, but was Bush right after all? There's been some amazing developments in the Arab world recently. A few examples: - Elections in Afghanistan. BTW, their 'Minister of Womens Affairs' (!) recently met with our Sec of State. Approx 25% of their new parliament will be women. - Elections in Iraq. Even more stunning to the rest of the mideast than the ones held in Afghanistan. Their women's affairs minister also participated in the recent meeting with the US Sec of State. - Beirut. Tens of thousands of anti-Syrian demonstrators brought about the fall of Lebanon's pro-Damascus government. Syrian President Bashar Assad reiterated his commitment to withdrawing all Syrian troops and intelligence agents from Lebanon, a U.N. envoy said Saturday, indicating that he had received a timetable for the pullout. - Saudi Arabia held municipal elections, the first democratic exercise the Ibn Sauds have ever allowed. Also of note, SA's Crown Prince Abdullah welcomed Syria's President Bashar Assad to Riyadh and told Assad to get Syria's 14,000 troops out of Lebanon. - Kuwait. On Monday, hundreds of activists demanding suffrage for women marched on Kuwait's parliament. - Egypt. Hosni Mubarak has promised a genuine (i.e., contested) presidential election - something he rejected just a few weeks ago as "totally unacceptable." Granted, spring in politics doesn't always give way to summer. When the world experienced democracy movements in 1989, some led to the fall of the USSR and the Berlin wall, and some brought out tanks in Tiananmen square. I am mindful of this, and there are other examples of false hope as well - the Oslo Accords of 1993 were heralded by many to be the beginning of true Israeli-Palestinian peace, which tragically wasn't so. But truthfully, do any of these events take place without the catalyst of free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq? I doubt it. 272445[/snapback] The situation in Lebanon is more complex than the US administration likes to pretend. You mentioned the tens of thousands demonstrating against Syria in your post, but failed to mention the hundreds of thousands that attended a pro-Syria demonstration organised by Hizbollah. Yes, Syria should leave Lebanon but, by the same measure, Israel should leave the Golan Heights, the Sheebaa Farms region as well as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It is also somewhat ironic that the US is insisting that Syria leaves Lebanon before elections are held when they seem somewhat reluctant to apply the same logic in Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 The situation in Lebanon is more complex than the US administration likes to pretend. You mentioned the tens of thousands demonstrating against Syria in your post, but failed to mention the hundreds of thousands that attended a pro-Syria demonstration organised by Hizbollah. Yes, Syria should leave Lebanon but, by the same measure, Israel should leave the Golan Heights, the Sheebaa Farms region as well as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It is also somewhat ironic that the US is insisting that Syria leaves Lebanon before elections are held when they seem somewhat reluctant to apply the same logic in Iraq. 273324[/snapback] I don't know that the US likes to pretend anything about the situation in Lebanon, so I not sure what you mean by that. I am concerned about recent comments about the US possibly going along with the UN and Europe idea of recognizing Hizbollah as a legitimate political entity in Lebanon's future. I believe terrorists should not receive that type of recognition. From what I have read, and please correct me if I am wrong, Hizbollah stands firmly against any thought of a democratic and free society as well as any thought of peace with Israel. Israel's cabinet recently voted to leave Gaza and portions of the West Bank. 8500 settlers are in the process of being evicted. Baby steps to some, but progress. Imagine if they are surrounded by democratic neighbors who don't wish to annihilate them - think the argument of maintaining those territories for security purposes may no longer convince even their closest allies? The US insisting Syria leave Lebanon and US troops being present in Iraq while they stand up a free democratic society is only ironic to those who believe Syria and the US are peers and have similar goals and objectives. This is the type of thought process that results in Cuba and Sudan's presence on the UN's Commission on Human Rights, and not one I can follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I don't know that the US likes to pretend anything about the situation in Lebanon, so I not sure what you mean by that. I am concerned about recent comments about the US possibly going along with the UN and Europe idea of recognizing Hizbollah as a legitimate political entity in Lebanon's future. I believe terrorists should not receive that type of recognition. From what I have read, and please correct me if I am wrong, Hizbollah stands firmly against any thought of a democratic and free society as well as any thought of peace with Israel. Israel's cabinet recently voted to leave Gaza and portions of the West Bank. 8500 settlers are in the process of being evicted. Baby steps to some, but progress. Imagine if they are surrounded by democratic neighbors who don't wish to annihilate them - think the argument of maintaining those territories for security purposes may no longer convince even their closest allies? The US insisting Syria leave Lebanon and US troops being present in Iraq while they stand up a free democratic society is only ironic to those who believe Syria and the US are peers and have similar goals and objectives. This is the type of thought process that results in Cuba and Sudan's presence on the UN's Commission on Human Rights, and not one I can follow. 273363[/snapback] Initially, Hizbollah was in favour of an Iranian theocracy in Lebanon but has now changed it's position. There was an interesting article on the subject of Hizbollah and it's evolution in the friggin' Guardian. It's worth reading if you don't automatically discount it because of the source. Lebanon and Hizbollah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 Initially, Hizbollah was in favour of an Iranian theocracy in Lebanon but has now changed it's position. There was an interesting article on the subject of Hizbollah and it's evolution in the friggin' Guardian. It's worth reading if you don't automatically discount it because of the source. Lebanon and Hizbollah I wouldn't discount the article because of the source. But surely you understand that given Hizbollah's history, reports of their transformation will be met with a great deal of skepticism. Deeds, not words would convince. The US has labeled Hizbollah a terrorist organization. They've done much to earn the designation. I also understand they have a dozen seats on the parliament, and provide a wide range of social services in southern Lebanon, and for that reason, there are many nations that refuse to classify them solely as terrorists. I don't pretend to know whether the carrot or the stick is warranted, I only hope Bush's policies have a lasting effect on spreading freedom and democracy across the mideast. The shame of it all is Lebanon is a jewel of a country, just beautiful. Unfortunately, my knowledge of this is derived from historical reports from before I was born, since Lebanon has been a series of disasterous events in my lifetime. There's little to be proud of on anyone's account so far. My prayers go out to you, Lebanon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 The situation in Lebanon is more complex than the US administration likes to pretend. You mentioned the tens of thousands demonstrating against Syria in your post, but failed to mention the hundreds of thousands that attended a pro-Syria demonstration organised by Hizbollah. Yes, Syria should leave Lebanon but, by the same measure, Israel should leave the Golan Heights, the Sheebaa Farms region as well as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It is also somewhat ironic that the US is insisting that Syria leaves Lebanon before elections are held when they seem somewhat reluctant to apply the same logic in Iraq. 273324[/snapback] Ah, yes...the voice of Muslim moderation, right? Difference between Israel and Syria is that Syria INVADED Lebanon. Israel was attacked before it gained those territories. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Ah, yes...the voice of Muslim moderation, right? Difference between Israel and Syria is that Syria INVADED Lebanon. Israel was attacked before it gained those territories. Try again. 273608[/snapback] "Ah, yes...the voice of Muslim moderation, right?" Not quite sure what you're getting at with that? Syria intervened in Lebanon to halt a civil war that was raging between Muslims and Christians. Interestingly enough, Syria intervened on the side of the Christians, provoking condemnation in much of the Arab world. It's also worth noting that their intervention was actually supported by the US at the time. The link below is pretty good. Lebanese history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 "Ah, yes...the voice of Muslim moderation, right?" Not quite sure what you're getting at with that? Syria intervened in Lebanon to halt a civil war that was raging between Muslims and Christians. Interestingly enough, Syria intervened on the side of the Christians, provoking condemnation in much of the Arab world. It's also worth noting that their intervention was actually supported by the US at the time. The link below is pretty good. Lebanese history 273628[/snapback] OK, but the point is you cannot draw paralells between Syria in Lebanon and Israel in the west bank. Syria intervened in Lebanon for matters of "peacekeeping". Israel was attacked by its neighbors and won territory from them (West Bank et al). Two different situations. Syria has no business remaining in Lebanon. Israel has every right to be where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Link Now the Anti-Syrian protests have reached the hundreds of thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Link Now the Anti-Syrian protests have reached the hundreds of thousands. 273851[/snapback] And I'll bet a lower percentage of those in attendance were strong-armed by a dubious "political" organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 And I'll bet a lower percentage of those in attendance were strong-armed by a dubious "political" organization. 273865[/snapback] Perhaps, but it is nevertheless true that Hizbollah enjoys widespread support among the Shia muslim community, which makes up about 40% of the Lebanese population. In any free and fair election, they are likely to do very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Nearly a million? Nearly one million people have gathered for an opposition rally in Beirut, officials say - a month after the death of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Then there's this mmmmmm....Democracy...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 By the way, everyone should check out some of the slideshows of these protests on yahoo.com. They are massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Then there's this mmmmmm....Democracy...... 274193[/snapback] I got a bigger kick outta the guy standing behind her. I think he left off a line... "or our Big Macs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I got a bigger kick outta the guy standing behind her. I think he left off a line... "or our Big Macs." 274199[/snapback] The guy to her right is clearly checking her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 The guy to her right is clearly checking her out. 274237[/snapback] Wouldn't you be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Wouldn't you be? 274241[/snapback] Is that the latest line of burkhas from the House of Versace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts